Author Topic: Gluten Strength  (Read 12606 times)

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scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #125 on: September 16, 2013, 11:00:22 AM »
You can see the darkened crust in the background slices.  All the char you can handle.

Actually, Chau, that level of color on the rim is what I believe the BS likes to do (especially with larger pies), and that's what I'm trying avoid, even on NH pies.

Philip, I use and recommend 1/2" steel plate.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 11:02:28 AM by scott123 »


Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #126 on: September 16, 2013, 11:01:46 AM »
Best advice I can give you is to knit the dough after making it. If mixing by hand make sure that you let the dough rest in between mixing the dough. The end result should be a smooth looking dough. After you mix for 1-3 min, let the dough rest, mix 1-3 minutes, let the dough rest then you should be able to fold the dough up until the dough has a nice structure. If I ferment the dough over 3 days I will usually knit the dough again and let it rest and store.

Great advise. I have not kneaded the dough after a 24 or 72 hour ferment in the refrigerator, that could be my tearing problems.

Is that common practice?

Also, resting I do, I mix, let rest 20 minutes.

thanks!

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #127 on: September 16, 2013, 11:03:24 AM »
Philip, 1800 watts is a hair dryer. As I said before, stay away from countertops.  We've had a few handy members successfully hack their countertops to produce great pizzas, but it's not without significant money and time. For NY style, a home oven with steel plate or a blackstone are monumentally easier and less expensive.

a home oven with steel plate, 1/2".  Will do.

So you preheat, bake, then move up to top and broil?

scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #128 on: September 16, 2013, 11:06:20 AM »
Great advise. I have not kneaded the dough after a 24 or 72 hour ferment in the refrigerator, that could be my tearing problems.

Is that common practice?

If a dough has fermented too long and has lost too much of it's structure- way too long, like more than 3 days past when you were expecting to use it, then a re-ball and/or a stretch and fold can help bring it back to life, but kneading a fully fermented dough is neither common practice nor is it recommended.

scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #129 on: September 16, 2013, 11:08:48 AM »
a home oven with steel plate, 1/2".  Will do.

So you preheat, bake, then move up to top and broil?

You broil as the pizza is being baked on the pre-heated plate. In order for the broiler to be effective, the plate has to be on a higher shelf- about 6" from the broiler.

My recipe covers a lot of this:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.msg206639.html#msg206639

If you follow this closely, I sincerely don't think you'll be complaining about flavor.

Offline solidusraven

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #130 on: September 16, 2013, 11:25:27 AM »
Great advise. I have not kneaded the dough after a 24 or 72 hour ferment in the refrigerator, that could be my tearing problems.

Is that common practice?

Also, resting I do, I mix, let rest 20 minutes.

thanks!

It may be uncommon to most people who have not baked bread but only pizza. Some bread bakers know how important gluten is and they can tell by the structure of the dough if gluten is strong. Taking a piece of the dough and stretching it gives you an idea and I have done this many many times. If it broke off easily (never does), I then knit the dough by flattening it then I fold it, let it rest for 2 min, then do this again about 4 times. Then I store the dough. This does not ever mess with the fermentation process as long as you don't leave it outside in room temperature for a long time which you shouldn't need to or should ever need to.

Offline solidusraven

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #131 on: September 16, 2013, 11:28:59 AM »
Another thing is how you are handling the pizza. Pizza with a weaker gluten structure will break but make sure that you let the dough rest when appropriate. Meaning that you let it out at least 1.5 hours after you remove it from the refrigerator. When you stretch the pizza if you are finding that the dough is giving you a hard time to stretch it then you need to let it rest then start again by stretching it by pushing the dough in counter clockwise motion from the outside and the inside. Then right before you start stretching it by hand give it a lil bit of rest time then start stretching it right above your knuckles or whichever method you use.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #132 on: September 16, 2013, 11:36:27 AM »
If a dough has fermented too long and has lost too much of it's structure- way too long, like more than 3 days past when you were expecting to use it, then a re-ball and/or a stretch and fold can help bring it back to life, but kneading a fully fermented dough is neither common practice nor is it recommended.

Understand

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #133 on: September 16, 2013, 11:37:48 AM »
You broil as the pizza is being baked on the pre-heated plate. In order for the broiler to be effective, the plate has to be on a higher shelf- about 6" from the broiler.

My recipe covers a lot of this:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.msg206639.html#msg206639

If you follow this closely, I sincerely don't think you'll be complaining about flavor.

Only a 3 minute total cook time?


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #134 on: September 16, 2013, 11:46:57 AM »
Actually, Chau, that level of color on the rim is what I believe the BS likes to do (especially with larger pies), and that's what I'm trying avoid, even on NH pies.

Philip, I use and recommend 1/2" steel plate.

Scott, getting a light color rim in the BS is not a problem.   All I would have to do is remove the chauflector and reduce the flame for baking.  You can reduce the flame to the point where it barely comes up the side of the plate or even stays under the plate completely.   The coloration between top and bottom will vary depending on the hearth temp that you load at and the size of the flame.  I can show you on the next pie but it would produce a subpar pie IMO. 

scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #135 on: September 16, 2013, 11:51:33 AM »
Chau, if you reduce the flame that much will the middle of the pizza still bake quickly enough?

I wouldn't want you to suffer through subpar pizza ;) but my NY (and NH) rims have considerably less color than that.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #136 on: September 16, 2013, 12:06:33 PM »
Chau, if you reduce the flame that much will the middle of the pizza still bake quickly enough?

I wouldn't want you to suffer through subpar pizza ;) but my NY (and NH) rims have considerably less color than that.

Yes, the middle of the pizza will bake just fine b/c 2/3 of the flame (when high) is under the stone.  When the flame is low, the majority of it is under the stone.  The rotation and the air gap helps distribute the heat pretty evenly across the bottom.   I was half kidding about the subpar pizza since we all have our preferences.   

The point I was really trying to convey is this.  I like a crispy dark bottom and top crust.  For my dough, it is loaded at 675-700F floor temp, with a smallish flame going.  Just enough flame to get a dark top crust in 4 minutes of baking.   BTW Scott, I am now abandoning my 5-6min ideal bake time and going with your 4min.   I've made the switch since I learned how to adjust my dough for a crispier effect at a lower bake time.  But that's another discussion.  Another reason for the new bench mark is that the Stella cheese I use gives a better melt at 4min as oppose to 5-6min where it can dry out a bit. 

Anyway, back to the crust coloration discussion.  If I were to turn down the flame to get a light color rim in a 4 min bake, then to balance the top and bottom color, I would also have to lower the load temp.  Maybe 625F in the Blackstone oven, I am not sure.  This may affect the explosiveness of the rim to an extent and will also affect the crispiness to the bottom that I like so much.  For my dough, changing the way I bake it to give a less brown look will definitely change the texture of the crust and crumb.  That's why I was saying it would make a subpar pie.  Not that those characteristics that you like make a subpar pie.  Everyone has a preference and I respect that. 
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 12:09:49 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #137 on: September 16, 2013, 06:31:02 PM »
I have gotten my BS over 1000F, no problem.  But that is too hot to bake NP pizza.   And even for NY style, I would recommend a BS over a home oven.  Faster preheat times 10m vs an hour.  More energy efficient.  It won't heat up your kitchen.   Faster recovery times between pizzas.  Less wear and tear on your home oven.  I have had to repair my home oven from too much pizza and bread making. 

The only time I can see the BS being at a disadvantage is in poor weather.  But if you have a garage that should be fine.

The specs state 700 F for the blackstone. What is the max dial temp? You say you get 1,000F?

For only $400, and the reasons you mentioned above, yes, get the heat out of the house!

Does the Blackstone give any smoked flavor?

Can a TF .085 be cooked in 4 mins or less, given 62% effective hydration on a blackstone?

Would seem the smaller the diameter of the pie the less black/browning of the outer top crust.

 Can you explain the basics quickly of  "I learned how to adjust my dough for a crispier effect at a lower bake time."?

Is 4 minute bake time result in more taste than 6 minutes?

thanks








Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #138 on: September 17, 2013, 05:28:30 PM »
What is the max dial temp? You say you get 1,000F?
There is a temp dial on the face of the oven that goes from Min to Max.  I'm not sure what the max dial temp is.  You can dial it upto Max and the oven gets very hot over time.  Yes you heard me correctly.  I have gotten the floor temp above 1000F.  My temp gauge stops registering after that.

Does the Blackstone give any smoked flavor?
No, but neither does a WFO as far as pizza goes.

Can a TF .085 be cooked in 4 mins or less, given 62% effective hydration on a blackstone?
Yes.  Would I recommend it if it could not?  ;D

Would seem the smaller the diameter of the pie the less black/browning of the outer top crust.
It would seem so, but you really need to bake pies in it to understand how it works and how to tweak it. 
Theorizing and postulating on how the oven works has proven to be effective. 

Can you explain the basics quickly of  "I learned how to adjust my dough for a crispier effect at a lower bake time."?

Philip, I have a problem where I can't quickly explain anything.  I hinted at my technique in reply #97

Is 4 minute bake time result in more taste than 6 minutes?
Taste is subjective.  A difference in bake time usually gives different textural qualities to the crust, cheese, and toppings.  If you equate a difference in texture to a difference in taste, as some might, then yes.  But otherwise no.   It will generally and for the most part taste the same, but have variations in textures, which make it better or worse for me. 

chau

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #139 on: September 17, 2013, 07:51:08 PM »
Thanks, found a Blackstone on-line, less than $400.

Really appears the Blackstone is the best value for many. High temp, low price, fast pe-heat, and all mess/heat outside.

Too bad there is not one in electric, however, 60,000 BTU's would equate to over 17,000 watts. About ten hair dryers. Not practical at home, unless you have a handy 100 amp, 240 VAC feed laying around.

Study time for reply # 97, yes.

I have studied scott123's suggestions, they are in play tonight. Reply # 97 tomorrow.

Thread is awesome

 


Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #140 on: September 18, 2013, 09:35:13 PM »
So salt aids gluten, retards yeast. I have been mixing all ingredients, EXCEPT salt and oil. Let rest 20 minutes, then knead for 5 minutes, then add salt/oil. Then knead 8 minutes. Stop. Into refrigerator 1 to 5 days.

Should I let it rest/rise for 1 or two hours before refrigeration??

thanks

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #141 on: September 18, 2013, 10:14:39 PM »
Yes


scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #142 on: September 19, 2013, 10:26:54 AM »
No.

Err... maybe  ;D

A pre-refrigeration rest gives it some time to ferment a bit.  It doesn't really add anything to the process except giving you something you have to worry about after the hour's over. Also, fermentation generates heat, so the dough, if left to sit out, will take longer to cool in the fridge, which will, from a fermentation standpoint, take the dough much further.  You can account for this by using less yeast at the start, reducing the time in the fridge or possibility reducing the warm up time, but it's way easier just to make the dough, ball it, and put it straight in the fridge.

Btw, I've seen some bakers add salt after kneading a bit, but I've never seen salt added after a rest.  And high quantities of oil can benefit from later assimilation, but not NY quantities.  Trust me on this, Philip.  Combine all the dry ingredients except for the yeast.  Add the IDY to the water, add the oil. Dry into wet, mix/knead, ball, refrigerate. If you want to get into preferments or rests, that's fine, but I'd master the basics first.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #143 on: September 19, 2013, 10:42:08 AM »
No.

Err... maybe  ;D

A pre-refrigeration rest gives it some time to ferment a bit.  It doesn't really add anything to the process except giving you something you have to worry about after the hour's over. Also, fermentation generates heat, so the dough, if left to sit out, will take longer to cool in the fridge, which will, from a fermentation standpoint, take the dough much further.  You can account for this by using less yeast at the start, reducing the time in the fridge or possibility reducing the warm up time, but it's way easier just to make the dough, ball it, and put it straight in the fridge.

Btw, I've seen some bakers add salt after kneading a bit, but I've never seen salt added after a rest.  And high quantities of oil can benefit from later assimilation, but not NY quantities.  Trust me on this, Philip.  Combine all the dry ingredients except for the yeast.  Add the IDY to the water, add the oil. Dry into wet, mix/knead, ball, refrigerate. If you want to get into preferments or rests, that's fine, but I'd master the basics first.


Confused, you say "no", yet  you state:

"...takes the dough much further."

To me this implies yes.

Also, I add salt in beginning of mixing, I do wait until after the rest, and then an additional 5 minute knead to add the oil, to not allow the oil to interfere with initial gluten. Sorry for mis info.

thanks!

scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #144 on: September 19, 2013, 11:02:30 AM »
Philip, fermentation is about being just right, not too little, not too much.  When I say 'further,' it's not 'better'. In fermentation terms, more is not better.

When you think about fermentation, consider Goldilocks.  You don't want too much or too little, just the right amount.  When you leave the dough at room temp for an hour before refrigeration, unless you take other steps to account for that extra time at room temp, you risk overfermenting the dough.

You are a yeast farmer. Heat- yeast grows faster. Cold- yeast grows slower. Greater quantity of yeast in the formula- yeast grows faster. Lesser quantity- yeast grows slower.  Time- yeast growth. Your job is to control all these variables so the yeast has grown enough to produce between a 2x and 3x increase in volume by the time you stretch the skin. While there are other factors that govern fermentation rates, these are the big ones.  It's critical that you maintain an awareness of all these factors so that the dough is ready when you need it.  The best way to master these concepts is to make dough and write all your temps/times down, over and over again.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #145 on: September 19, 2013, 11:18:14 AM »
Great explanations Scott.  Like I posted before, there are many ways to skin this cat.  There are lots of interprerations of what pizza is and should be.  Scott is the goto guy for traditonal NY pie.   I make a great crust but I tend to use more unconventional approaches and techniques.  There is nothing wrong with bulk fermentation of a dough even if pizzerias don't do it.  IMO it (a bit of fermentation) adds a bit more strength to the dough before balling.  It also allows the dough to rest so I can gauge it's strength before balling.  I like it and recommend it.  It helps make the pizzas that you see posted on the forum. 
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 12:00:50 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #146 on: September 19, 2013, 12:49:07 PM »
Philip, fermentation is about being just right, not too little, not too much.  When I say 'further,' it's not 'better'. In fermentation terms, more is not better.

When you think about fermentation, consider Goldilocks.  You don't want too much or too little, just the right amount.  When you leave the dough at room temp for an hour before refrigeration, unless you take other steps to account for that extra time at room temp, you risk overfermenting the dough.

You are a yeast farmer. Heat- yeast grows faster. Cold- yeast grows slower. Greater quantity of yeast in the formula- yeast grows faster. Lesser quantity- yeast grows slower.  Time- yeast growth. Your job is to control all these variables so the yeast has grown enough to produce between a 2x and 3x increase in volume by the time you stretch the skin. While there are other factors that govern fermentation rates, these are the big ones.  It's critical that you maintain an awareness of all these factors so that the dough is ready when you need it.  The best way to master these concepts is to make dough and write all your temps/times down, over and over again.

Understand, thanks

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #147 on: September 19, 2013, 12:49:50 PM »
Great explanations Scot.  Like I posted before, there are many ways to skin this cat.  There are lots of interprerations of what pizza is and should be.  Scot is the goto guy for traditonal NY pie.   I make a great crust but I tend to use more unconventional approaches and techniques.  There is nothing wrong with bulk fermentation of a dough even if pizzerias don't do it.  IMO it (a bit of fermentation) adds a bit more strength to the dough before balling.  It also allows the dough to rest so I can gauge it's strength before balling.  I like it and recommend it.  It helps make the pizzas that you see posted on the forum.

I have done both, both were good. I must have non sensitive taste, thanks

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #148 on: September 19, 2013, 11:47:55 PM »
Greater quantity of yeast in the formula- yeast grows faster. Lesser quantity- yeast grows slower.

I don't mean to be overly nit-picky, but this is not correct. More yeast = faster fermentation, but that does not imply faster growth rate, rather more yeast growing at the same rate. If anything, at some point, more yeast = slower growth rate as there is more competition for a finite food source.
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #149 on: September 25, 2013, 08:51:57 PM »
Should I let it rest/rise for 1 or two hours before refrigeration??

Sometimes I let it rest, but sometimes I don't.

If I was making NY style dough at a pizzeria, I most certainly would not let it rest. Your objective is to be precise in everything you do. Letting the dough rest totally screws with the whole process, and everything you do becomes less precise. If you do this in a pizzeria, your pizza will be inconsistent, which will discourage repeat customers. At home it's not such a big deal. At home you have much larger windows of opportunity than you would in a pizzeria.

If you want repeatable, predictable results, you don't let it rest. If you want repeatable, predictable results, you scale, round, and refrigerate immediately after mixing.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


 

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