Author Topic: Gluten Strength  (Read 8672 times)

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Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #140 on: September 18, 2013, 09:35:13 PM »
So salt aids gluten, retards yeast. I have been mixing all ingredients, EXCEPT salt and oil. Let rest 20 minutes, then knead for 5 minutes, then add salt/oil. Then knead 8 minutes. Stop. Into refrigerator 1 to 5 days.

Should I let it rest/rise for 1 or two hours before refrigeration??

thanks


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #141 on: September 18, 2013, 10:14:39 PM »
Yes

scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #142 on: September 19, 2013, 10:26:54 AM »
No.

Err... maybe  ;D

A pre-refrigeration rest gives it some time to ferment a bit.  It doesn't really add anything to the process except giving you something you have to worry about after the hour's over. Also, fermentation generates heat, so the dough, if left to sit out, will take longer to cool in the fridge, which will, from a fermentation standpoint, take the dough much further.  You can account for this by using less yeast at the start, reducing the time in the fridge or possibility reducing the warm up time, but it's way easier just to make the dough, ball it, and put it straight in the fridge.

Btw, I've seen some bakers add salt after kneading a bit, but I've never seen salt added after a rest.  And high quantities of oil can benefit from later assimilation, but not NY quantities.  Trust me on this, Philip.  Combine all the dry ingredients except for the yeast.  Add the IDY to the water, add the oil. Dry into wet, mix/knead, ball, refrigerate. If you want to get into preferments or rests, that's fine, but I'd master the basics first.

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #143 on: September 19, 2013, 10:42:08 AM »
No.

Err... maybe  ;D

A pre-refrigeration rest gives it some time to ferment a bit.  It doesn't really add anything to the process except giving you something you have to worry about after the hour's over. Also, fermentation generates heat, so the dough, if left to sit out, will take longer to cool in the fridge, which will, from a fermentation standpoint, take the dough much further.  You can account for this by using less yeast at the start, reducing the time in the fridge or possibility reducing the warm up time, but it's way easier just to make the dough, ball it, and put it straight in the fridge.

Btw, I've seen some bakers add salt after kneading a bit, but I've never seen salt added after a rest.  And high quantities of oil can benefit from later assimilation, but not NY quantities.  Trust me on this, Philip.  Combine all the dry ingredients except for the yeast.  Add the IDY to the water, add the oil. Dry into wet, mix/knead, ball, refrigerate. If you want to get into preferments or rests, that's fine, but I'd master the basics first.


Confused, you say "no", yet  you state:

"...takes the dough much further."

To me this implies yes.

Also, I add salt in beginning of mixing, I do wait until after the rest, and then an additional 5 minute knead to add the oil, to not allow the oil to interfere with initial gluten. Sorry for mis info.

thanks!

scott123

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #144 on: September 19, 2013, 11:02:30 AM »
Philip, fermentation is about being just right, not too little, not too much.  When I say 'further,' it's not 'better'. In fermentation terms, more is not better.

When you think about fermentation, consider Goldilocks.  You don't want too much or too little, just the right amount.  When you leave the dough at room temp for an hour before refrigeration, unless you take other steps to account for that extra time at room temp, you risk overfermenting the dough.

You are a yeast farmer. Heat- yeast grows faster. Cold- yeast grows slower. Greater quantity of yeast in the formula- yeast grows faster. Lesser quantity- yeast grows slower.  Time- yeast growth. Your job is to control all these variables so the yeast has grown enough to produce between a 2x and 3x increase in volume by the time you stretch the skin. While there are other factors that govern fermentation rates, these are the big ones.  It's critical that you maintain an awareness of all these factors so that the dough is ready when you need it.  The best way to master these concepts is to make dough and write all your temps/times down, over and over again.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #145 on: September 19, 2013, 11:18:14 AM »
Great explanations Scott.  Like I posted before, there are many ways to skin this cat.  There are lots of interprerations of what pizza is and should be.  Scott is the goto guy for traditonal NY pie.   I make a great crust but I tend to use more unconventional approaches and techniques.  There is nothing wrong with bulk fermentation of a dough even if pizzerias don't do it.  IMO it (a bit of fermentation) adds a bit more strength to the dough before balling.  It also allows the dough to rest so I can gauge it's strength before balling.  I like it and recommend it.  It helps make the pizzas that you see posted on the forum. 
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 12:00:50 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #146 on: September 19, 2013, 12:49:07 PM »
Philip, fermentation is about being just right, not too little, not too much.  When I say 'further,' it's not 'better'. In fermentation terms, more is not better.

When you think about fermentation, consider Goldilocks.  You don't want too much or too little, just the right amount.  When you leave the dough at room temp for an hour before refrigeration, unless you take other steps to account for that extra time at room temp, you risk overfermenting the dough.

You are a yeast farmer. Heat- yeast grows faster. Cold- yeast grows slower. Greater quantity of yeast in the formula- yeast grows faster. Lesser quantity- yeast grows slower.  Time- yeast growth. Your job is to control all these variables so the yeast has grown enough to produce between a 2x and 3x increase in volume by the time you stretch the skin. While there are other factors that govern fermentation rates, these are the big ones.  It's critical that you maintain an awareness of all these factors so that the dough is ready when you need it.  The best way to master these concepts is to make dough and write all your temps/times down, over and over again.

Understand, thanks

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #147 on: September 19, 2013, 12:49:50 PM »
Great explanations Scot.  Like I posted before, there are many ways to skin this cat.  There are lots of interprerations of what pizza is and should be.  Scot is the goto guy for traditonal NY pie.   I make a great crust but I tend to use more unconventional approaches and techniques.  There is nothing wrong with bulk fermentation of a dough even if pizzerias don't do it.  IMO it (a bit of fermentation) adds a bit more strength to the dough before balling.  It also allows the dough to rest so I can gauge it's strength before balling.  I like it and recommend it.  It helps make the pizzas that you see posted on the forum.

I have done both, both were good. I must have non sensitive taste, thanks

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #148 on: September 19, 2013, 11:47:55 PM »
Greater quantity of yeast in the formula- yeast grows faster. Lesser quantity- yeast grows slower.

I don't mean to be overly nit-picky, but this is not correct. More yeast = faster fermentation, but that does not imply faster growth rate, rather more yeast growing at the same rate. If anything, at some point, more yeast = slower growth rate as there is more competition for a finite food source.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #149 on: September 25, 2013, 08:51:57 PM »
Should I let it rest/rise for 1 or two hours before refrigeration??

Sometimes I let it rest, but sometimes I don't.

If I was making NY style dough at a pizzeria, I most certainly would not let it rest. Your objective is to be precise in everything you do. Letting the dough rest totally screws with the whole process, and everything you do becomes less precise. If you do this in a pizzeria, your pizza will be inconsistent, which will discourage repeat customers. At home it's not such a big deal. At home you have much larger windows of opportunity than you would in a pizzeria.

If you want repeatable, predictable results, you don't let it rest. If you want repeatable, predictable results, you scale, round, and refrigerate immediately after mixing.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #150 on: September 25, 2013, 09:02:36 PM »
Sorry.  I disagree with your last statement Ryan.  Letting it rest is just one step in an entire process.   If you do it everytime and keep all else the same, you get repeatable and predictable results. 

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #151 on: September 25, 2013, 09:05:03 PM »
IMO it (a bit of fermentation) adds a bit more strength to the dough before balling.

This is kind of part II of my previous post.

With pizzas I make at home, I like the same qualities that Chau described, but not too much, so I tend to let my NY dough rest for 15 or 30 minutes before scaling and rounding. Seems like if I don't do that, even with All Trumps flour, my dough ends up kinda flat and more extensible than I really want. (And I tend to use a lower hydration than most members.)

You can't get away with doing that in a pizzeria, for tons of reasons. Things I can think of right away include mass effect, excess friction heat, room temperature fluctuations, the extra time it takes a large batch of dough balls to cool in a walk-in compared to the time it takes two or three dough balls to cool in a fridge, etc.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #152 on: September 25, 2013, 09:43:47 PM »
One really great lesson that's just begging for you to learn right now, Philip, is the fact that nothing anyone says here is necessarily the absolute truth. You have at least four very knowledgeable pizzamakers telling you different things on this page, and I'm sure it's overwhelming sometimes, but no one is wrong. I feel comfortable saying the most knowledgeable people on these boards are much more knowledgeable than almost every pizzeria owner out there. Sometimes one person's valuable information conflicts with other people's valuable information, but it's still all good information. People share their ideas with you, and you get to decide whose ideas provide the best guidance for you.

Scott is the NY style guru around here. Everyone knows that. Still, sometimes we disagree with him, and sometimes we might be a little more right than he is. But much more often than not, Scott is right. And I'll tell you right now that you should trust what Scott says before you trust what I say. Also, Chau's counter to what I said a few posts back might end up changing my whole freaking pizza philosophy. It probably won't, but I remain open to the possibility that it could. (You too, Craig.)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #153 on: September 26, 2013, 07:23:35 AM »
There are pizza operators who let their dough rest or bench rise before dividing and going to the cooler. Evelyn Slomon discussed this approach several years ago at Reply 455 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28773/topicseen.html#msg28773. Certainly, pizza operators could eliminate this step by using less yeast, or a lower finished dough temperature (by using cooler water), or even a combination of both, but these are not the sorts of things that most pizza operators do, or even know how to do in most cases. The advice that is most often given to professionals is to make and manage the dough as Ryan says. Even then, one has to work fast to get the dough balls divided, scaled and balled and into the cooler as fast as possible. In fact, Tom Lehmann, whose entire career has been devoted to the needs of professional pizza operators, and who knows the drill inside and out, sets the time to accomplish the above steps at 20 minutes (see item 9 at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554/topicseen.html#msg64554. If that time is extended for any reason, Tom knows that that will make it harder for the dough balls to cool down uniformly (he often expresses the concern that the dough balls will "blow") and that it will affect the end time when the dough balls need to be used.

In a home setting, there are few limitations as to what can be done. However, I actually think that it is harder to make pizza dough in a home environment than in a commercial environment. In a commercial environment, everything has to be done to be sure that the dough balls are ready by certain times on the clock and that they are of consistent, reproducible quality. It is a "no excuses" environment. In a home setting, there are far more variables that can conspire to defeat what you want or are trying to do. For most mishaps or failures in a home setting, there might be disappointments, but there usually are no penalties.

Peter

Offline philipmason

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #154 on: September 28, 2013, 08:18:20 PM »
One really great lesson that's just begging for you to learn right now, Philip, is the fact that nothing anyone says here is necessarily the absolute truth. You have at least four very knowledgeable pizzamakers telling you different things on this page, and I'm sure it's overwhelming sometimes, but no one is wrong. I feel comfortable saying the most knowledgeable people on these boards are much more knowledgeable than almost every pizzeria owner out there. Sometimes one person's valuable information conflicts with other people's valuable information, but it's still all good information. People share their ideas with you, and you get to decide whose ideas provide the best guidance for you.

Scott is the NY style guru around here. Everyone knows that. Still, sometimes we disagree with him, and sometimes we might be a little more right than he is. But much more often than not, Scott is right. And I'll tell you right now that you should trust what Scott says before you trust what I say. Also, Chau's counter to what I said a few posts back might end up changing my whole freaking pizza philosophy. It probably won't, but I remain open to the possibility that it could. (You too, Craig.)

I understand, good point.

All commenting here are both extremely component, and have their own methods. One method may not be empirically better than  another. They could both be right. All is really good info for us all to consider.

I am trying everyone's suggestions, and success withe each one.

Yes, I believe your comment, the strong ones commenting here know more than most pizzeria owners, including yourself.

Thanks scott123, Jackie Tran, TXCraig1. strong you all are.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #155 on: September 28, 2013, 08:26:27 PM »
One really great lesson that's just begging for you to learn right now, Philip, is the fact that nothing anyone says here is necessarily the absolute truth.

I agree with Ryan completely in concept, but I'd say it a little differently. I think everyone here is telling the absolute truth. It's just that given so many variables and that we are all in unique situations, things don't always work the same way for different folks.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Zensojourner

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #156 on: October 12, 2013, 05:42:05 PM »
re folks wondering why adding ascorbic acid doesn't seem to affect dough qualities - when ascorbic acid is used as a maturing agent at the mills, it is added in tiny amounts, mechanical mixers assure that it is well-distributed, and there are considerations of time, and probably a bunch of other environmental factors as well, that go into producing the desired maturing effect (eg stronger gluten development).

Merely adding some at the point of baking isn't going to have the same result. 

I also would not recommend trying to bromate one's own flour - that is also a complicated process that doesn't lend itself to the conditions in one's home.  I have no problem with bromated flour, but trying to do it at home would be extremely difficult even if you knew exactly the entire procedure used in commercial mills. Also, consider the fact that you are not applying this process to raw flour and so the effects are likely to be quite different.

Someone asked about how "bromate evaporates out" during normal baking - heat breaks down the chemical bonds that form potassium bromate.  Bromine has a melting point of only 19F; its boiling point (the point at which it starts turning into a gas) is 138F.  Bread is typically baked to an internal temperature of 190F to 205F.  The very very tiny amount of bromine present in bromated flour will evaporate out long before the bread has completely baked, first as heat breaks the chemical bonds and releases the bromine, then as the bromine itself vaporizes.  Remember that it is only something very small, in ppm (parts per million) to start with; after baking, if there's anything left at all, it'll be something in the ppb - which for all intents and purposes might as well be none.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 05:44:15 PM by Zensojourner »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #157 on: October 13, 2013, 10:12:40 AM »
Someone asked about how "bromate evaporates out" during normal baking - heat breaks down the chemical bonds that form potassium bromate.  Bromine has a melting point of only 19F; its boiling point (the point at which it starts turning into a gas) is 138F.  Bread is typically baked to an internal temperature of 190F to 205F.  The very very tiny amount of bromine present in bromated flour will evaporate out long before the bread has completely baked, first as heat breaks the chemical bonds and releases the bromine, then as the bromine itself vaporizes.  Remember that it is only something very small, in ppm (parts per million) to start with; after baking, if there's anything left at all, it'll be something in the ppb - which for all intents and purposes might as well be none.

That is not exactly correct. During baking, potassium bromate is reduced to potassium bromide which is not considered harmful in the finished product. At no time is there elemental bromine in the dough or bread.

2KBrO3 --[heat]--> 2KBr + 3O2
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Zensojourner

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Re: Gluten Strength
« Reply #158 on: October 13, 2013, 12:35:55 PM »
Suits me, thanks for answering!  My memory is not what it ought to be.


 

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