Author Topic: Prepped Skin Storage  (Read 2112 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2013, 09:48:02 PM »
Wes,

Y'know, I think I used to eat Round Table kinda regularly when I lived in Vegas. The thing is, I haven't lived in Vegas since 2000. (I have spent a lot of time wandering the American West over the last several years, though, which means I've walked by countless Round Table units. But I never really had the money to buy Round Table's pizza throughout my travels, because I was functionally homeless.)

When I lived in Vegas, I never really thought about what makes Round Table's pizza any different from any other pizza (although I'm sure every bite mark would get a picture if I went there today). From what I think I remember, it seems like their pizza had a slightly soft, crispy crust and was cut into narrow slices. Very crispy, almost crunchy, on the bottom, but much softer above. Does that sound remotely accurate?

Even though your dough is a tad softer than my Tommy's dough (which is the pizza I showed in my pictures a few posts back), I'm still totally with fazzari here. And I know he has a ton of experience with this kind of stuff.

Interestingly, this is actually something I've had to deal with a good bit lately because I've hosted four pizza parties this summer, in which I've made as many as four different styles of pizza (NY style, Tommy's style, Malnati's style, and my first Giordano's style experiments). Which means I've had to put a lot of thought into how I manage all these different styles of dough over a period of basically a whole day, as if I was operating a pizzeria. In fact, my pictures a few posts back are from one of these parties.

The Tommy's style (cracker) skins are the only style of skins that required considerable planning and advance prep.

Like you, I had to roll my cracker style skins well ahead of time. Unlike you, though, it's because it takes me at least half an hour to roll and trim each 14-15" Tommy's style laminated skin (8 laminates). I would do this at 10:00 or 11:00 in the morning, then put the 2 or 3 skins in the fridge, removing the first one at 1:00 or 2:00. What I can tell you pretty confidently from this experience is that you shouldn't have any kind of problem if you only intend to leave the skins in the cooler for a matter of hours, rather than days.

Do what fazzari suggested, even though you won't necessarily need to. And if you ever plan to keep skins in the cooler overnight, definitely do what fazzari suggested. I prefer to use my skins immediately after rolling, or at least within a few hours, but I think fazzari has said he prefers to use them more like the next day, which I've also done. Even if the skins dry up a little, they still usually come out fine.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2013, 10:23:19 PM »
Also, here's the formula for my latest Tommy's style batch:

100% Pillsbury AP flour
43% Water
1.15% IDY (or 1.5% ADY)
1.5% Salt
5% Shortening
1% Sugar

Not really much different than your dough. A little stiffer, a little more fat, and a lot more yeast, but still pretty similar.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2013, 11:13:12 PM »
Thanks everyone. I'll make some trials.

Wes
Wes
If you are willing to make some trials, I have some suggestions for you
1)  Raise your yeast level to around .75% (IDY)
2)  Don't overmix your dough........we go about 8 minutes
3)  Use warm water, so your dough comes off the mixer warm
4)  Bulk ferment your dough at room temp for a couple hours
5)  Sheet your dough, cut them out, stack and cool.  Sheeting warm dough is soooooooo much easier
     on your sheeter.  If you need to go straight to the freezer for awhile...all the better.
6)  Let your skins sit at least overnight, and they'll be good 3 to 5 days
7)  Never, and I mean never, let your skins get warm enough to rise...you want all the action to happen
     in the oven
8)  Never flour in between sheets, you are trying to create one dough, not a dough with a bunch of layers.
9)  When you have found the perfect thickness for what you want, weigh your skins and make sure they
     are correct for each particular size you make.

John

Offline wsonner

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2013, 07:27:17 AM »
John, numbers 4 and 7 seem to contradict. I must be missing something. <Nevermind, I think I understand. 7 is AFTER sheeting.> Some good things to try here. Thank you!

Wes

Wes
If you are willing to make some trials, I have some suggestions for you
1)  Raise your yeast level to around .75% (IDY)
2)  Don't overmix your dough........we go about 8 minutes
3)  Use warm water, so your dough comes off the mixer warm
4)  Bulk ferment your dough at room temp for a couple hours
5)  Sheet your dough, cut them out, stack and cool.  Sheeting warm dough is soooooooo much easier
     on your sheeter.  If you need to go straight to the freezer for awhile...all the better.
6)  Let your skins sit at least overnight, and they'll be good 3 to 5 days
7)  Never, and I mean never, let your skins get warm enough to rise...you want all the action to happen
     in the oven
8)  Never flour in between sheets, you are trying to create one dough, not a dough with a bunch of layers.
9)  When you have found the perfect thickness for what you want, weigh your skins and make sure they
     are correct for each particular size you make.

John
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 07:34:50 AM by wsonner »

Offline fazzari

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2013, 07:43:59 AM »
John, numbers 4 and 7 seem to contradict. I must be missing something. <Nevermind, I think I understand. 7 is AFTER sheeting.> Some good things to try here. Thank you!

Wes
Correct

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2013, 09:27:17 PM »
Wes,

Another option to consider (possibly later in the process), since it appears that you bake on pans, is to sheet the skins, pan them, then sauce and cheese them, and store the sauce-and-cheesed skins in the cooler, possibly on a rack with wheels (if you intend to use them over the next few hours). This is similar to what is done at Donatos, which is a very high-volume operation. (Donatos dough arrives from the commissary in boxes of frozen, sheeted discs.)

John,

What style(s) of pizza do you actually sell? I've seen a lot (or all) of your experimental threads with various pizza styles, but I get the feeling you don't actually offer all the styles you like to mess around with.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2013, 09:41:18 PM »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2013, 10:03:49 PM »
Man, awesome Yelp reviews!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2013, 10:10:33 PM »

Offline wsonner

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2013, 07:29:46 AM »
Hey John, I have a taco pizza too! It's one of my favorite :-). 

Taco Pizza
 Seasoned ground beef
 Onions
 Pepper Jack cheese
 Black olives
 Fresh Shredded Lettuce
 Fresh tomatoes
 Fresh green onions
 Fresh Jalapenos


Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2013, 10:27:29 AM »
Trying to understand some of the recommendations made and how they might impact his operations and existing customer base.  I would think his objective is to produce enough skins to supplement his sheeter during peak periods and to keep the same crust profile and consistency his customer base has grown to expect.  He must be doing well and people like his product otherwise he would not require a supplemental process in his operations.

To keep his customers happy and continue to grow his base, the new dough management process needs to take that into account.

The sheeter (like it or not) is incredibly consistent.  Set the rollers and the proper thickness is produced all day long, every day.  His customers expect the same product today and next week.  Changes to the formulation, thickness/texture of the finished product can impact his growing base.

Iím trying to understand some of the recommendations and how they would maintain the crust consistency his base expects.

Sheet, cut, sauce and cheese ahead of time then refrigerate: This would drive him crazy in a couple areas.  First, handling is more difficult if cheese is applied the extra weight and the motion of sliding off parchment can create a less than perfect circle.  Second, he will battle gum lines (random) and more often than not we will have crusts which are not consistent with his existing sheeted process. The gum line problem is likely to occur when sauce is applied then sits on the skin (in the fridge or out).  It will also change the texture of his crust.  Based on his existing formulation his crusts are most likely pretty crispy.  Saucing ahead of time would make it more difficult to maintain the same crispiness..

Changing his formulation: His customers like his product so it would make sense not to change it.   

Pre-skin and storage: Today he uses a sheeter, back to the point of consistency.  If he sheets, cuts and places the skins in a cooler he will still get rise.  The question is how to control that rate so itís consistent with the sheeter.  The control is formulation, temp, and duration. Assume he keeps his formulation then we are dealing with temp and duration. No?  The longer he keeps a skin in the cooler the more it will rise.  If he uses skin in 4 hours, it will be different in 8, 24 etc..: the crust texture will change and itís not what his customers have grown to expect.  The process does work for sure, for his particular operations itís not what his growing base expects.

To keep consistency with the sheeter, the process would be he would make just enough skins to help in peak demand. Using both fresh sheeted and refrigerated skins throughout the peak periods typically enough for a 4 hour rush (or so).  By using both he keeps control over rise by limiting its duration and maintains a consistent crust his customers expect.

Offline wsonner

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2013, 10:47:04 AM »

Pre-skin and storage: Today he uses a sheeter, back to the point of consistency.  If he sheets, cuts and places the skins in a cooler he will still get rise.  The question is how to control that rate so itís consistent with the sheeter.  The control is formulation, temp, and duration. Assume he keeps his formulation then we are dealing with temp and duration. No?  The longer he keeps a skin in the cooler the more it will rise.  If he uses skin in 4 hours, it will be different in 8, 24 etc..: the crust texture will change and itís not what his customers have grown to expect.  The process does work for sure, for his particular operations itís not what his growing base expects.

To keep consistency with the sheeter, the process would be he would make just enough skins to help in peak demand. Using both fresh sheeted and refrigerated skins throughout the peak periods typically enough for a 4 hour rush (or so).  By using both he keeps control over rise by limiting its duration and maintains a consistent crust his customers expect.

These are quite salient points and I appreciate your input.  Do you think I'd get more rise with cold storage of pre-sheeted skins versus dough balls?  I need to do some experimenting.  You're right though, I'm not likely to change my formula. That said, I DO think I'll switch to IDY so I don't have to proof my yeast, it will save time in my prep cycle.

Wes

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2013, 11:39:26 AM »
Given the same formulation and temp/duration the same rate of rise applies to the skin as does the ball. The skin will cool faster initially (and slow fermentation/rise faster) because of its larger surface area.  More dough is exposed to cold compared to a ball. 

It depends on how ďperfectĒ you want the pre cut skin to match the sheeter Ė a slight variance in thickness (greater using the skin as opposed to the sheeter) may not be noticeable to your customer and you can keep that consistency if you handle the duration by reducing the amount of time the skin is in the fridge.  Mix up the pre made skins with fresh during peak time to keep the flow going. When peak is slowing, go after the premade exclusively to use them up.  Repeat the cycle the next day.

You would need to use your formulation and handling and try it out to see what is acceptable.  You will notice a difference in thickness, but minor if you keep durations short. 

A natural tendency might be to reduce sheeter thickness to compensate for rise.  That would be a mistake because the crust texture will be different (lighter) than what your existing customers expect.  Also, it would create inconstancy if using the sheeter for fresh at thickness A at the same time using premade skins at thickness B.

The other impact pre skinning has that needs close observation is laminating.  Today, you sheet and laminate and your customers like that texture. Those layers mend as rise continues because there is moisture in the dough and the only thing separating those layers is some slight flour.  The flour will saturate due to moisture and mend the layers.  Back to duration, reducing it helps keep thickness in line and reduces the likelihood of losing the laminate. 

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2013, 11:47:09 AM »
Trying to understand some of the recommendations made and how they might impact his operations and existing customer base.  I would think his objective is to produce enough skins to supplement his sheeter during peak periods and to keep the same crust profile and consistency his customer base has grown to expect.  He must be doing well and people like his product otherwise he would not require a supplemental process in his operations.

We're sharing ideas, not necessarily the answers. There's not just one right way to do things. When demand changes, certain processes must change to accomodate the change in demand. That is, unless the demand is so great that you can get away with doubling the prices and making everyone wait at least an hour. The product and the methods for making the product are not set in stone.

When I make suggestions, I take into consideration the fact that time changes product, and I've spent some time considering the dough management procedures he already uses. That's why I specify that I think the skins are OK if left in the cooler for a few hours. I'm not saying put every skin in the cooler for three hours; I'm saying it's possible to leave skins in the fridge for three hours without any major issues. I'm saying it's possible to sauce and cheese maybe 50 or a hundred skins before the rush hits, which is something you pretty much have to do if the demand calls for a couple hundred pizzas to be produced during a two-hour span at dinner rush (IF you bake on pans).

If he leaves skins in the cooler for one day or five days, then he'll be making a different pizza than the pizza he currently makes. If he wants to do that, then great. It'll create much larger windows of opportunity to use the dough, but it'll also be a different pizza than what he currently offers. If he sauce-and-cheeses a bunch of skins before the rush, he needs to choose an appropriate number of skins to sauce-and-cheese, by knowing the demand patterns of his customers. Some places would not be able to stay in business without doing these kinds of things. Sometimes it creates a little inconsistency in the product. Sometimes it's easy to adapt and eliminate such inconsistency. Sometimes a little inconsistency is what makes people love your pizza.

There are countless ways to manage dough and adapt to demand. Wes wants to figure out the right way for his operation. No one can tell him exactly what he needs to do. All we can do is suggest things he might want to consider.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 11:52:40 AM by Aimless Ryan »

Offline fazzari

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2013, 01:45:30 PM »
Wes
I went over your dough process, and even went back and read your past questions and posts, and I realized that you are laminating dough balls.  Sorry, I never caught that the first time through.

I know you seem to be happy with your skins and you are getting good feed back.....but, I have to wonder... are you laminating your dough and then directly dressing your pizzas?  In one of the answers Tom Lehmann gave you, he suggested you let your dough rest overnight after sheeting.  What you are essentially doing, is completely degassing your dough and then baking it.  Have you experimented at all with laminating your dough and letting your skins rest (in refrigeration) at least 8 hours.  The following is an explanation of what happens when laminating dough

From "Formulas and Processes for Bakers" by Samuel Matz.

"Layering and reduction (thinning) processes improve the grain and texture of the finished product by reducing the size of large gas bubbles and by forming many nuclei for steam evolution as a result of subdividing pockets of entrapped air.  These actions are separate frojm the fat layering effect and will occur even in the absence of any laminating medium such as shortening, although the latter may facilitate steam entrapment when it is present as a discontinuous phase.  The practice of braking cracker or biscuit doughs to improve texture is based on these considerations, although dough development is another important result of such procedures".

So, I would think your laminated dough needs time to regas to get the proper effect of the process you are using.

I know we all like what we like....but, I would bet a dollar to an anchovy, if you would check the quality of your dough after resting compared to baking after degassing, you will have the solution you need to fix your original problem.

John

Offline wsonner

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2013, 01:57:20 PM »
Wes
I went over your dough process, and even went back and read your past questions and posts, and I realized that you are laminating dough balls.  Sorry, I never caught that the first time through.

I know you seem to be happy with your skins and you are getting good feed back.....but, I have to wonder... are you laminating your dough and then directly dressing your pizzas?  In one of the answers Tom Lehmann gave you, he suggested you let your dough rest overnight after sheeting.  What you are essentially doing, is completely degassing your dough and then baking it.  Have you experimented at all with laminating your dough and letting your skins rest (in refrigeration) at least 8 hours.  The following is an explanation of what happens when laminating dough

From "Formulas and Processes for Bakers" by Samuel Matz.

"Layering and reduction (thinning) processes improve the grain and texture of the finished product by reducing the size of large gas bubbles and by forming many nuclei for steam evolution as a result of subdividing pockets of entrapped air.  These actions are separate frojm the fat layering effect and will occur even in the absence of any laminating medium such as shortening, although the latter may facilitate steam entrapment when it is present as a discontinuous phase.  The practice of braking cracker or biscuit doughs to improve texture is based on these considerations, although dough development is another important result of such procedures".

So, I would think your laminated dough needs time to regas to get the proper effect of the process you are using.

I know we all like what we like....but, I would bet a dollar to an anchovy, if you would check the quality of your dough after resting compared to baking after degassing, you will have the solution you need to fix your original problem.

John

Wow. I missed that.  But when you spell it out it seems obvious. I'll give this a try right away.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Prepped Skin Storage
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2013, 05:03:14 PM »
Wes,

While I was searching for something else today, I stumbled upon the following post in which I excerpted something that Tom Lehmann once posted in an old version of the PMQ forum (no longer in existence) about preparing skins in advance:

Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2881.msg24737/topicseen.html#msg24737

Peter


 

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