Author Topic: Help With KASL  (Read 1765 times)

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Offline madpizzaman

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Help With KASL
« on: February 26, 2006, 10:48:10 PM »
Hi everyone,

This is my first post and I want to thank everyone for all your great information. I have been reading the information on this site and have so far had pretty good luck making NY style pizza. I ordered KASL as this is what seems to make the best pizza according to what I have read so far. I am having a problem and so far I have not had much luck troubleshooting the issue. Here is my issue, when I make the pizza dough using KASL it seems the dough is too soft, so soft that when I go to stretch it, it almost stretches under its own weight. I have tried a number of different experiments in terms of ingredient changes and adjustments.

First here is the recipe: I am using 16 OZ of KASL, using a scale to measure, one TSP of Red Star ADY, ¾ TSP of Salt, 2  TBS of Olive oil and 9 OZ. of water. This would appear to give me around a 57 percent hydration ratio. I am using a KA mixer and have mixed the dough as little as 8 min or as much as 20. Same result. I tried an experiment today. I went ahead and used the same recipe and used King Arthur Bread Flour side by side with KASL. Turns out the Bread flour had normal stretching consistency and strength, While the KASL had the same issue.! I almost think I have gotten a batch of cake flour and not KASL…..

I hope someone can offer some help as I am truly baffled.

Thanks

MadPizzaMan!!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Help With KASL
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2006, 11:28:39 PM »
MadPizzaMan,

I have a few questions that might help us find the source of your problem:

1) Where does your formulation come from?

2) What water temperature are you using to make the dough, and did you weigh the water also?

3) How are you proofing and incorporating the ADY into the rest of the procedures you have been using to make your doughs?

4) What is your precise procedure for making the dough (i.e., sequence of combining, mixing and kneading ingredients)? What mixer speed(s) are you using?

5) What fermentation scheme are you using, that is, is it a same-day room temperature fermentation or a cold fermentation in the refrigerator, and for how long? Are you in a warm climate or a cold climate?

6) If you are using a cold fermentation, how long are you allowing the dough to warm up before shaping into a skin? How big a pizza are you making?

What puzzles me most is that you got different results using the same formulation and processing with the KA bread flour. I think your use of oil may be too high, but it is premature to blame the oil when you aparently used the same amount successfully with the KA bread flour.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 26, 2006, 11:32:44 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline madpizzaman

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Re: Help With KASL
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2006, 12:04:55 AM »
Peter thanks for the quick reply, here are the answers to your questions.

have a few questions that might help us find the source of your problem:

1) Where does your formulation come from?-  I got this formulation from the recipe section on the forum, certainly if not good please help!

2) What water temperature are you using to make the dough, and did you weigh the water also? The water temp is  110 as per Red star proofing instructions,liquid OZ, should I be weighing the water? I am using a standard measuring cup

3) How are you proofing and incorporating the ADY into the rest of the procedures you have been using to make your doughs? - I proof the yeast according to Red Star directions, 10 min in 110F water.

4) What is your precise procedure for making the dough (i.e., sequence of combining, mixing and kneading ingredients)? What mixer speed(s) are you using? - I put the flour, salt and proofed yeast into the KA mixer at the same time, then mix for 2 min at one then 7-8 or so at speed 2

5) What fermentation scheme are you using, that is, is it a same-day room temperature fermentation or a cold fermentation in the refrigerator, and for how long? Are you in a warm climate or a cold climate? I live in San Diego so it is fairly warm. As soon as the dough is formed I put in the fridge for 24 hours, so I guess that is cold fermentation?

6) If you are using a cold fermentation, how long are you allowing the dough to warm up before shaping into a skin? How big a pizza are you making? I am letting the dough warm for 1 to 1.5 hours. I am making a 15 inch pizza, and the weight of each ball is 13.5 oz.


What puzzles me most is that you got different results using the same formulation and processing with the KA bread flour. I think your use of oil may be too high, but it is premature to blame the oil when you apparently used the same amount successfully with the KA bread flour. - I will admit that I may have, however really not sure, put less oil into the KA BF and the standard 2TBS into the KASL. I will try to go with 1 TSP or less, maybe that will help?
Thanks,

MadPizzaMan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Help With KASL
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2006, 10:30:16 AM »
madpizzaman,

Thank you for the additional information.

There is nothing wrong per se with the formulation that is posted on the Recipe page. It was changes that you made to the recipe that may have been the source of your problem, including substituting ADY for IDY and doubling the amount of oil. I suspect you also used the ADY improperly. Rather than discuss the ingredients one by one, I will instead tell you how I think you should use the recipe.

First, I would start by weighing the flour and setting it aside. I would then weigh the water. I don't think that the water was the source of the problem you experienced since 9 ounces of water by weight is quite close to 9 ounces by volume. However, since you have the scale on hand you might as well use it and eliminate the possibility of incorrectly eyeballing the water in your measuring cup.

Next, I would take about 1/4 cup of the water, warm it to around 110 degreef F, and proof the ADY in the warm water for about 10 minutes. The rest of the water should be cool. In fact, since your San Diego kitchen is likely to be a bit warmer than most parts of the country this time of year, I would suggest using cool water right out of the tap, or even a bit cooler. That water should be put into the bowl of your KitchenAid stand mixer. Then add the salt and stir with a whisk or spoon until dissolved, about 30 seconds to a minute. Once the salt is completely dissolved in the water, it is safe to add the proofed ADY and stir that in. That can be followed by the addition of the flour. My practice is to add the flour gradually and not dump it into the water all at one time. By so doing, I think you get better hydration of the flour.

The rest of the procedures should be as you followed before. However, this time I would like to suggest that you use only 1 tablespoon of oil as called for by the recipe. Using double that amount will increase the oil to over 6% (by weight of flour), which is almost double the typical amount of oil for a NY style. At 6%, you will get increased extensibility (stretchiness) in the dough and that may have been partly a cause of the problems you experienced. Many NY style doughs use as little as 1% oil, so you can imagine what might happen by going to 6%.

I would also like to suggest that you knead the dough only until it reaches a smooth consistency with a small amount of tackiness to the finished dough. For the dough batch size that the recipe produces, that may be around 8 minutes. However, if you decide that you prefer the results from a longer knead time, you may want to use even cooler water to compensate for the added heat that will be imparted to the dough by the frictional heat contributed by the longer knead time of the mixer. In fact, if you have a thermometer I would like you to take the temperature of the finished dough so that we have that information on hand in the event your problems are not solved by the procedures I am now reciting. Ideally, for a NY style dough that is to be cold fermented, the finished dough temperarature should be around 75 degrees F if you will be cold fermenting the finished dough in a home refrigerator.

You indicated that you are using the dough to make two 15-inch pizzas. By my calculation, the thickness factor would be 0.076 (13.5/3.14 x 7.5 x 7.5 = 0.076). A typical NY thin style has a thickness factor of 0.10-0.105, and a thicker NY style can be around 0.11-0.13. If you would like to get closer to the typical NY style, you can do this in your case by making two 12-inch pizzas instead of two 15-inch pizzas. Of course, that is all up to you. It's your pizzas and if you want them really thin (like an elite Patsy's NY style), then you should continue to do as you have been doing.

As you are shaping and stretching the dough balls into skins, you may find that you don't need 1 to 1.5 hours of counter warm-up time. If your kitchen is warm, it could be less. A good way to tell is to actually take the temperature of the dough. Once it reaches around 60 degrees F, you should be in reasonably good shape. The reason I mention this point is that if the dough warms up too much, then it will be more extensible and harder to shape and stretch into a skin because of increased stretchiness, especially one that goes out to 15 inches using 13.5 ounces of dough. From what you have said, I think that your dough temperature at the time the dough went into the refrigerator may have been too high and, possibly along with the higher oil levels, contributed to the excessive extensibility of the dough. I am fairly confident that if you follow all of the steps outlined above, your results should be better. If not, feel free to come back with more questions.

Since you posted in the Newbie Topics section, I would also like to suggest that you take a look at the Pizza Glossary section, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html. Also, you may want to take a look at the following thread that evolved to address the needs of beginning pizza makers interested in making a NY style dough: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html.

Good luck.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 27, 2006, 10:38:24 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline madpizzaman

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Re: Help With KASL
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2006, 12:10:28 PM »
Peter,

Your information has been tremendous, as I have started learning its the little details that make a huge difference. I am not certain how I managed to get to two TBS of oil, must have mixed it up with a pizza sauce I am making! :).

In analyzing my dough, rises really quickly, as in double volume in 2 hours, I can start to see how the changes you suggested would change things for the better. The hot water was probably a big part of the culprit I think. The mixing piece has also caused me some confusion as I kept thinking that I was underneading my dough, I am starting to think that 8 minutes at speed one will be enough as you suggested. I do have a very good thermometer and have will measure the dough temperature at various stages of the mixing process to see how the KA electric mixer is starting to affect that.

Regarding the pizza thickness, I am really striving for an authentic NY style as I am originally from NY and this is part of the reason for the NY style desire. So based on the dough weight of 13 OZ per ball I should be going for 12 inch. How can I determine dough weight so I can get the right thickness on a 15 inch?

Thank you very much for your information, I am quite excited to get the new process and start testing. I will update as soon as I get results, which should be in another day or so since I am going to make some dough tonight!!

MadPizzaMan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Help With KASL
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2006, 01:03:32 PM »
MadPizzaMan,

If your dough was doubling in volume in a couple of hours, that tells me that your water was too warm. Coupled with using 1 teaspoon of ADY (around 0.8% by weight of flour), versus the 0.25% IDY I use for a standard Lehmann NY style dough, the dough would rise very very fast, making it harder for the refrigerator to cool it down (the dough, in effect, behaves like an insulator). Both of these factors would translate into an accelerated fermentation. Plus, with around 6% oil, it's easy to see how you could end up with a very extensible dough. I'm a bit surprised that the fairly low 57% hydration didn't offset these effects somewhat, but I have come to learn that water temperature (and, hence, dough temperature) and quantity of yeast are very powerful forces. If not understood and controlled, they can lead to results that are far different from what was intended.

To calculate the amount of dough to make a 15" pizza, all you have to do is use this simple expression:

                          DW (dough ball weight) = 3.14 x R x R x TF,

where R is the radius of the pizza, and TF is the thickness factor. In your case, using R = 7.5, and using TF = 0.105, the dough weight for the 15-inch size would be 3.14 x 7.5 x 7.5 x 0.105 = 18.54 ounces. If you want the pizza to have a slightly thinner crust, you could use a thickness factor of 0.10, which yields a dough ball weight of 17.7 ounces. This is one of those areas where you can experiment with different thickness factors until you get the crust thickness that you like best. The beauty of the above expression is that you can make different sized pizzas and they will have essentially identical crust characteristics. Bake times and temperatures might have to be adjusted to accommodate the different sizes, but the crust characteristics should be very similar.

Peter

Offline madpizzaman

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Re: Help With KASL
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2006, 01:19:28 PM »
Peter,

I cannot thank you enough!! More questions :)
Can you tell me if my conversions ( I am trying to use the Lehman percentages) are correct). I am trying to learn to use the Lehman percentages and since I don't have a gram scale, I am trying to convert OZ to TSP

16 OZ flour
9.6 OZ = 60 Percent Hydration - Water
.25 OZ = 1.5 TSP  - 1.5 Percent - Salt
.16 OZ = 1 TSP - 1 Percent - Oil
.33 percent for the ADY conversion so I get 1/3 teaspoon, I am really wondering about this one??

Thanks again!!!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Help With KASL
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2006, 01:49:38 PM »
MadPizzaMan,

I believe you have it right except for the salt and the ADY. Your percent number and weight for the salt are correct, but 0.25 ounces of salt (ordinary table salt) converts to a little over 1 1/4 teaspoons (0.25/0.196875 = 1.27 t.)

For the ADY, you could use the percent ADY you noted (that is, it would work fine), but if you are trying to convert from the 0.25% IDY I usually use for the Lehmann NY style dough, you would multiply the 0.25% by 1.5, which gives us 0.375%. That is 0.06 ounces of ADY (16 x 0.375%). The 0.06 ounces of ADY converts to 0.45 teaspoons, or a bit less than 1/2 t. Unless you have an extremely accurate scale that can weigh 0.06 ounces of ADY, I would just eyeball the amount in a 1/2-t. measuring spoon.

Peter

Offline madpizzaman

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Re: Help With KASL
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2006, 11:04:53 PM »
Peter,

I tried your recipe and followed it to a T. I guess I was making quite a few mistakes. For one too much oil, I reduced it to the Lehman percentages of 1 TSP of oil. I was overheating my dough and thus causing over fermentation. I was also using too much yeast, I again reduced it to 1/2 TSP. Another major thing I was doing was overmixing. This was quite tough to figure out as I was not doing the windowpane test correctly. ( roll a piece into a ball flatten then stretch).

After following your directions, the dough was much better handling and also much better results. I also read your articles in the URL you provided so learing the way to stretch pizza helped quite a bit.

Thanks again

MadPizzaman