Author Topic: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results  (Read 2577 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2013, 01:42:14 AM »
I have to admit, the correlation between oven spring and faster browning is something that I've never considered.  My best guess is that denser dough takes longer for heat to permeate it.

I do know that Roberto mentioned to me that if you slam dough as you're stretching it, as some of the Neapolitans are doing, you'll compress it, and that compression contributes to the propensity for a gum line (raw dough) at typical fast Neapolitan bake times. But that's slower cooking inside the crumb, not browning on the rim. Still, though, density may play a role.
Consider this Scott,
In my everyday job I bake laminated cracker crusts.  When the dough is made correctly,  there is a transfer of heat from the stone, up through the crust, which causes oven spring, with the heat penetrating the top of the crust and even cooking things like raw beef or sausage.  I can bake a pizza in the 5 to 6 minute range.  When my dough isn't quite right, there seems to be a lack of transfer of heat from the stone, and the heat doesn't reach the top.  The pizza will cook much flatter because there is very little oven spring.   If I have raw meats on top of this pizza, I have to rely on top heat from the oven alone.  I end up rolling meat chunks to expose them to hot air so they will cook.  I also will have to throw a screen under the crust so it won't burn, because this pizza will take longer to bake.  On a perfect pizza, I can see steam roll off the top of the pizza as I pull it out of the oven....not so with a poor crust.  So, I am guessing that browning might have something to do with the heat coming from the bottom as well as the top.  That's my best educated guess..what do you think??
John


Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2013, 01:48:50 AM »
Today I baked some pizzas that had a 60% hydration rate.  These pizzas are 38 hours old, they each weigh 10 ounces and are stretched to 12 inches.  As suspected, as the hydration goes down,  the differences in doughs is slightly different.  The first dough was mixed with the dough hook.  Baking time was only 5 minutes 8 seconds, browned fairly nicely, is crispy and fairly tender....an excellent pizza.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2013, 01:52:53 AM »
Second dough was the folded dough.  Right off the start, the dough ball is much stronger, as it pushes back as you stretch it...took some pretty good slapping.  This one baked in 4 minutes 50 seconds, has much better oven spring, browned a little better, is crispy and tender...another great pizza....but only slightly better than the mixed by hook dough.  I'm anxious to see what another day in the fridge does.
John

Offline scott123

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2013, 06:39:59 AM »
That's my best educated guess..what do you think??

So a denser crumb produces less rising steam?  I think you nailed it, John. An image of an ice cube melting slower in a glass of water than crushed ice just flashed in my head.  It's a little hard to see surface area inside a crumb, but it's definitely there.  If you spread the water into more dispersed/more numerous pockets (with better oven spring), heat can penetrate those water pockets faster than if the water is in a denser/more cohesive mass. Instead of melting smaller portions of crushed ice faster, you're boiling smaller portions of water, creating steam faster and pushing that steam up and out of the pie.

Nice observation, John. Well done.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2013, 07:04:17 AM »
When my dough isn't quite right, there seems to be a lack of transfer of heat from the stone, and the heat doesn't reach the top.
John,

Can you explain what you mean by "When my dough isn't quite right?"  It it something you know up front before the pizza is baked or is it something you know only after the fact, i.e, after the pizza has been baked?

Also, can you tell us the difference in height, in inches, between the rims of the two types of pizzas you have been making?

Peter
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 07:09:37 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2013, 08:07:41 AM »
So a denser crumb produces less rising steam?  I think you nailed it, John. An image of an ice cube melting slower in a glass of water than crushed ice just flashed in my head.  It's a little hard to see surface area inside a crumb, but it's definitely there.  If you spread the water into more dispersed/more numerous pockets (with better oven spring), heat can penetrate those water pockets faster than if the water is in a denser/more cohesive mass. Instead of melting smaller portions of crushed ice faster, you're boiling smaller portions of water, creating steam faster and pushing that steam up and out of the pie.

Nice observation, John. Well done.

As usual, it seems the answers (if they "ARE" the answers) do nothing but cause more questions!!
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2013, 08:28:28 AM »
John,

Can you explain what you mean by "When my dough isn't quite right?"  It it something you know up front before the pizza is baked or is it something you know only after the fact, i.e, after the pizza has been baked?

Also, can you tell us the difference in height, in inches, between the rims of the two types of pizzas you have been making?

Peter

The cracker crusts are the single hardest doughs I've ever worked with so far Peter.  The frustrating  part is that even when one is meticulous about doing things the same every time, the dough changes.  I can't predict when I'm going to have a problem, but when I do, most of the time, it will be a whole batch, or a whole days worth, or a whole weeks worth.  In the past, (30 years ago), we were way more inconsistent compared to today.  We have much more knowledge today than we ever have, and as a result our success rate is very high.  You know, I can bake a pizza, and tell you if something is wrong with the refrigeration, simply by noting how the bottom crust cooks, how thick the bottom crust is, how little oven spring there is, and how little heat is coming up through the crust.  The good thing is, if you know there's a problem, you can alter oven temps, use screens etc to help make a good product.  I also still continue to think, that when you are using 36% hydration rates (right on the margin, I'd say), any changes in flour show up immediately.   And they do!!

As far as the rims on the pizzas I'm making in this experiment...I haven't measured....but this isn't my only measure of oven spring either Peter.  I do note though, that when I see the rims define themselves quickly as they bake, the whole pizza is affected!

Peter, by the way, after doing some reading about folding doughs yesterday, I tried a new experiment, where I mixed a dough a couple minutes (to get the gluten just started), then I did 4 stretch and folds in 5 minute intervals.  As per your question on the development after folding, I was able to windowpane the dough...I'll write it up later when I have time

John

Offline scott123

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2013, 09:10:40 AM »
As usual, it seems the answers (if they "ARE" the answers) do nothing but cause more questions!!

When you first brought up the topic of oven spring's impact on browning, my first thought was "NO! NO MORE COMPLEXITY!" ;D  Since we've come up with what I believe is a reasonable explanation, though, I feel better.

Offline JD

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2013, 12:58:47 PM »
Do you think this theory would explain the black ring issue in the Blackstone thread?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.msg277961.html#msg277961

Josh

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2013, 04:01:42 PM »
John,

Thanks a lot for these excellent posts!  I'm learning a lot.  It seems to me that different people would have different techniques in doing the stretch and fold.  I'm wondering if you would be kind enough to have someone take pictures or a video of you doing the stretch and fold so we can see exactly what you are doing to the dough with this process.  Your pizzas (both thin crust and this style) look amazing!   :)

--Tim


Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2013, 10:28:24 PM »
John,

Thanks a lot for these excellent posts!  I'm learning a lot.  It seems to me that different people would have different techniques in doing the stretch and fold.  I'm wondering if you would be kind enough to have someone take pictures or a video of you doing the stretch and fold so we can see exactly what you are doing to the dough with this process.  Your pizzas (both thin crust and this style) look amazing!   :)

--Tim

Tim
I'll have a little more to say about my experiments later tonight when I finish up with 60% doughs.  But here's a video from a well known bread expert on his stretch and folds.  Mine are very close to his method.
John
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1timJlCT3PM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1timJlCT3PM</a>

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2013, 10:29:56 PM »
Do you think this theory would explain the black ring issue in the Blackstone thread?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.msg277961.html#msg277961

I'm sorry, I haven't been following that thread....maybe someone who has can comment
John

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2013, 01:32:18 AM »
Tim
I'll have a little more to say about my experiments later tonight when I finish up with 60% doughs.  But here's a video from a well known bread expert on his stretch and folds.  Mine are very close to his method.
John
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1timJlCT3PM


John, 

Thanks a lot for posting that video link.  It helps a lot. Just to be clear -- are you doing a total of 3 stretch and folds or 4?

Tim

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2013, 01:38:39 AM »
John, 

Thanks a lot for posting that video link.  It helps a lot. Just to be clear -- are you doing a total of 3 stretch and folds or 4?

Tim

After I pour the dough out on a sheet pan, I use an easy s & f to organize it and then do 3 more.  Before you try this, please read about the experiments I did tonight.  I'll finish this experiment in this thread and then I'll start another thread with a new experiment.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2013, 01:44:36 AM »
This is the last of the experiments on this method.  The following doughs are 75 hours old.  One of the things I want to know is if the stretch and fold dough will be a good dough longer than the one mixed by hook

The following pizza was mixed by dough hook.  It weighs 10 ounces and is stretched to 12 inches.  It is baked in a 560 degree deck oven..it take 5 minutes 22 seconds to bake.  This pizza was gorgeous, it browned nicely, was crispy and tender and had good oven spring.  It was so good I thought it would be hard to beat on this evening.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2013, 01:47:43 AM »
The next pizza was the folded dough.  Again, this dough ball is so much stronger...but it slaps out to 12 inches.  This pizza baked in 5 minutes 2 seconds.  It was very nicely browned, crisp, tender and had more oven spring than the first.....and yes, this was again the better pizza.......but not by much.

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2013, 01:58:19 AM »
I know this is a very limited experiment and it is hard to control all factors.....the biggest one being how long to mix the dough by hook.  But I am comfortable with the results and the conclusions which will follow:
In every single side by side bake, the folded dough won the best pizza prize...sometimes by a wide margin, and sometimes not.  So not only is the folded dough better the first day, it seems to be better every day of aging the test is done.  These experiments made me very curious about stretch and folds, so I read everything i could get my hands on.  At first I thought the stretch and folds were kind of magical (and they really are!!), but they are just another way to build strength.  So, I'm left to think that the stretch and folds were simply building a stronger dough than the hook because I didn't mix my doughs enough.  I also began to wonder what would happen if I shortened the times between folds...would it matter.  Regardless, I'm thinking I got to get back to the basics of mixing...how much is just right...and how do you know?  I'm going to start another thread with a new finding.

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2013, 07:05:19 AM »
John,

What I  think we have here is what has become a classic debate between pizza made by pizza makers and pizza made by bread bakers. On the pizza side is someone like a Tom Lehmann who, although he is certainly familiar with the principles of bread making as a result of his perch at the AIB, does not use most such principles in his pizza making. As you know from the quoted material in Reply 440 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28694.html#msg28694, for pizza dough Tom advocates underkneading the dough and not using the gluten film test but rather a test (using an egg or walnut size piece of dough) that falls far short of a gluten film test. On the other side of the debate is someone like Peter Reinhart. Peter Reinhart spent almost his entire career on the bread side and only later ventured into pizza making in a big way. And his approach has been artisan in nature, where bread making principles like stretch and folds, preferments, autolyse and the like are incorporated into pizza making.

The reason why I asked you whether the dough after the multiple stretch and folds passed the gluten film test was to see if the dough was still on the underkneaded side, as per the advocacy of someone like Tom Lehmann, or whether the gluten was fully developed as per the advocacy of someone like Peter Reinhart. The distinction is important because the approach advocated by Tom Lehmann relies a great deal on modest up front gluten development and great reliance on biochemical gluten development of the gluten during fermentation, whereas the approach advocated by Peter Reinhart calls for full gluten development up front, in his case by multiple stretch and folds. And one of the outcomes achieved by Peter Reinhart's approach is a gluten matrix that can more effectively capture and retain the gases of fermentation. In theory, that should lead to a dough with increased volume during fermentation. Moreover, the rest periods between the stretch and folds, which are similar in certain respects to autolyse rest periods, should improve the hydration and development of the dough. All else being equal, the net result should be a greater oven spring, as well as some textural differences in the finished crumb and crust.

I don't recall ever reading anything by Tom Lehmann about using bread making principles like stretch and folds and autolyse in the context of pizza making. So, someone who comes down on the side of Tom Lehmann would say that he is making pizza and that Peter Reinhart is making bread in the shape of a pizza. I have learned that it is wise to stay out of such battles because people should be free to make their pizzas in any way that gives them pleasure and satisfaction. Tom Lehmann has spent the bulk of his career assisting mainly rank-and-file pizza professionals, where simple and straightforward procedures and economy of time and labor are important, if not a practical necessity. Peter Reinhart's methods lend themselves better to the home environment where home pizza makers can make pizzas in a more relaxed setting that might be considered more artisan in nature.

On the matter of crust coloration in relation to oven spring, I cannot recall ever reading about such a connection. That is not to say that there is no such connection, and if you tell me that the pizzas made from the doughs that were subjected to stretch and folds had more or better browning than those made using the dough hook, I would believe you. However, when I went back through this thread and looked at all of the photos for the second phase of your experiment, I did not detect a material difference in the browning of the crusts, especially on the tops of the pizzas. I also wondered whether the fact that that the pizzas all had different combination toppings might have affected the bakes, especially those with a lot of moisture-laden vegetables.

My study on how color is formed in pizza crusts has always centered on things like the denaturing of protein, caramelization of sugars, Maillard reactions, residual sugars, and pH. But, as I noted before, I have not read of any connection between oven spring and crust coloration. It would seem to me that a dough that has a fully developed gluten structure and a lot of captured gases would have insulative properties that would promote better bottom crust browning and less top browning. On that basis, I would expect more heat to pass through the dough hook pizzas to the tops of the pizzas. But, who knows? Maybe that heat helps cook the toppings and causes moisture in the dough to turn to steam that keeps the top crust from browning.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 07:57:46 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2013, 10:30:13 AM »
Peter
Very observant synopsis, but I certainly don't want you to think I'm pitting breadmaking vs pizzamaking.  I ended up at this point quite by accident.  It all started when I started experimenting with a recipe found at breadmaking.com.  It got me wondering how the process would work with pizza...and it worked wonderfully, so good that I started questioning dough mixing procedures.  But, in the end, I realize that the dough strength created by the folding validates that dough should be mixed as long as it takes by hook for proper development.  When you are told to "undermix" a dough, "undermix" can mean a whole bunch of things to bakers....and I think that is where I had my problem, not only was it undermixed, it was way undermixed.  And I started realizing this when mixing my 60% hydrated doughs....I purposely attempted to try and develop the dough more with hook, and the results of my test show the doughs to be quite similar.  You know another point I will always have a problem with is the video of the "hen's egg" test.  That was a 12 minute mix, and it is labeled undermixed,  but it seems to me the end product is coming very close to the window pane stage..and maybe I'm just wrong.

So, all of this just leads me back to the basics of mixing dough.     There is a big BUT, in here though...and that has to do with high hydration doughs.  The mixer just does not do a good job of development...and that is why the "reball" became my best weapon.  I haven't had to reball anything that has been folded.  So, I will continue to use the fold technique either in conjunction with the hook or alone when using high hydrations.  And to be fair to Reinhart, he is just recently introducing the fold, but he is using hydration rates of up to 80%....and the fold makes this process very easy...so easy any beginner could do it.

I'm experimenting with a dough made with 4 folds in 5 minute intervals, and am simply amazed at how good it turned out.  Just another weapon to have Peter, you never have enough!

As for the browning qualities Peter, pictures don't always tell the story.  You have to look at the browning in conjunction with how long the pizza baked.  The doughs with less oven spring take longer to bake and thus longer to brown....or just the opposite, they take longer to brown and thus longer to bake.  With a poorly developed dough, I have observed some pizzas that were dark brown on the bottom and cool to the touch on top...no heat transfer.  That is why I think there might be something to the thought of oven spring relating to color....just my observations Peter..   and I thank you for yours.

JOhn

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2013, 02:36:40 AM »
I couldn't leave well enough alone...although I love everything about the folded doughs...I'm hoping I gave the mixed by hook doughs a fighting chance.  So, just one more experiment.  I made a 62% hydration dough using the recipe in this thread.  After mixing two minutes the dough was split in half..  This time one half was given 4 stretch and folds in a 15 minute time frame.  It was then balled and refrigerated.  The other half was mixed until it passed the "hen's egg" test.  It took my Kitchen Aid 11 minutes to develop the dough this far.  I don't think i've ever mixed a dough quite that long.  It was then balled and refrigerated.
The doughs are 56 hours old.  The first one was mixed by hook.  It took 5 minutes to bake in a 560 degree oven.  The bottom browned nicely, but the top didn't, not much in oven spring.  The pizza was delicious, all the same...not very remarkable though.
John