Author Topic: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results  (Read 3810 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2013, 08:07:41 AM »
So a denser crumb produces less rising steam?  I think you nailed it, John. An image of an ice cube melting slower in a glass of water than crushed ice just flashed in my head.  It's a little hard to see surface area inside a crumb, but it's definitely there.  If you spread the water into more dispersed/more numerous pockets (with better oven spring), heat can penetrate those water pockets faster than if the water is in a denser/more cohesive mass. Instead of melting smaller portions of crushed ice faster, you're boiling smaller portions of water, creating steam faster and pushing that steam up and out of the pie.

Nice observation, John. Well done.

As usual, it seems the answers (if they "ARE" the answers) do nothing but cause more questions!!
John


Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2013, 08:28:28 AM »
John,

Can you explain what you mean by "When my dough isn't quite right?"  It it something you know up front before the pizza is baked or is it something you know only after the fact, i.e, after the pizza has been baked?

Also, can you tell us the difference in height, in inches, between the rims of the two types of pizzas you have been making?

Peter

The cracker crusts are the single hardest doughs I've ever worked with so far Peter.  The frustrating  part is that even when one is meticulous about doing things the same every time, the dough changes.  I can't predict when I'm going to have a problem, but when I do, most of the time, it will be a whole batch, or a whole days worth, or a whole weeks worth.  In the past, (30 years ago), we were way more inconsistent compared to today.  We have much more knowledge today than we ever have, and as a result our success rate is very high.  You know, I can bake a pizza, and tell you if something is wrong with the refrigeration, simply by noting how the bottom crust cooks, how thick the bottom crust is, how little oven spring there is, and how little heat is coming up through the crust.  The good thing is, if you know there's a problem, you can alter oven temps, use screens etc to help make a good product.  I also still continue to think, that when you are using 36% hydration rates (right on the margin, I'd say), any changes in flour show up immediately.   And they do!!

As far as the rims on the pizzas I'm making in this experiment...I haven't measured....but this isn't my only measure of oven spring either Peter.  I do note though, that when I see the rims define themselves quickly as they bake, the whole pizza is affected!

Peter, by the way, after doing some reading about folding doughs yesterday, I tried a new experiment, where I mixed a dough a couple minutes (to get the gluten just started), then I did 4 stretch and folds in 5 minute intervals.  As per your question on the development after folding, I was able to windowpane the dough...I'll write it up later when I have time

John

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2013, 09:10:40 AM »
As usual, it seems the answers (if they "ARE" the answers) do nothing but cause more questions!!

When you first brought up the topic of oven spring's impact on browning, my first thought was "NO! NO MORE COMPLEXITY!" ;D  Since we've come up with what I believe is a reasonable explanation, though, I feel better.

Offline JD

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2013, 12:58:47 PM »
Do you think this theory would explain the black ring issue in the Blackstone thread?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.msg277961.html#msg277961


Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2013, 04:01:42 PM »
John,

Thanks a lot for these excellent posts!  I'm learning a lot.  It seems to me that different people would have different techniques in doing the stretch and fold.  I'm wondering if you would be kind enough to have someone take pictures or a video of you doing the stretch and fold so we can see exactly what you are doing to the dough with this process.  Your pizzas (both thin crust and this style) look amazing!   :)

--Tim

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2013, 10:28:24 PM »
John,

Thanks a lot for these excellent posts!  I'm learning a lot.  It seems to me that different people would have different techniques in doing the stretch and fold.  I'm wondering if you would be kind enough to have someone take pictures or a video of you doing the stretch and fold so we can see exactly what you are doing to the dough with this process.  Your pizzas (both thin crust and this style) look amazing!   :)

--Tim
Tim
I'll have a little more to say about my experiments later tonight when I finish up with 60% doughs.  But here's a video from a well known bread expert on his stretch and folds.  Mine are very close to his method.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2013, 10:29:56 PM »
Do you think this theory would explain the black ring issue in the Blackstone thread?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.msg277961.html#msg277961
I'm sorry, I haven't been following that thread....maybe someone who has can comment
John

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2013, 01:32:18 AM »
Tim
I'll have a little more to say about my experiments later tonight when I finish up with 60% doughs.  But here's a video from a well known bread expert on his stretch and folds.  Mine are very close to his method.
John


John, 

Thanks a lot for posting that video link.  It helps a lot. Just to be clear -- are you doing a total of 3 stretch and folds or 4?

Tim

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2013, 01:38:39 AM »
John, 

Thanks a lot for posting that video link.  It helps a lot. Just to be clear -- are you doing a total of 3 stretch and folds or 4?

Tim

After I pour the dough out on a sheet pan, I use an easy s & f to organize it and then do 3 more.  Before you try this, please read about the experiments I did tonight.  I'll finish this experiment in this thread and then I'll start another thread with a new experiment.
John


Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2013, 01:44:36 AM »
This is the last of the experiments on this method.  The following doughs are 75 hours old.  One of the things I want to know is if the stretch and fold dough will be a good dough longer than the one mixed by hook

The following pizza was mixed by dough hook.  It weighs 10 ounces and is stretched to 12 inches.  It is baked in a 560 degree deck oven..it take 5 minutes 22 seconds to bake.  This pizza was gorgeous, it browned nicely, was crispy and tender and had good oven spring.  It was so good I thought it would be hard to beat on this evening.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2013, 01:47:43 AM »
The next pizza was the folded dough.  Again, this dough ball is so much stronger...but it slaps out to 12 inches.  This pizza baked in 5 minutes 2 seconds.  It was very nicely browned, crisp, tender and had more oven spring than the first.....and yes, this was again the better pizza.......but not by much.

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2013, 01:58:19 AM »
I know this is a very limited experiment and it is hard to control all factors.....the biggest one being how long to mix the dough by hook.  But I am comfortable with the results and the conclusions which will follow:
In every single side by side bake, the folded dough won the best pizza prize...sometimes by a wide margin, and sometimes not.  So not only is the folded dough better the first day, it seems to be better every day of aging the test is done.  These experiments made me very curious about stretch and folds, so I read everything i could get my hands on.  At first I thought the stretch and folds were kind of magical (and they really are!!), but they are just another way to build strength.  So, I'm left to think that the stretch and folds were simply building a stronger dough than the hook because I didn't mix my doughs enough.  I also began to wonder what would happen if I shortened the times between folds...would it matter.  Regardless, I'm thinking I got to get back to the basics of mixing...how much is just right...and how do you know?  I'm going to start another thread with a new finding.

John

Online Pete-zza

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2013, 07:05:19 AM »
John,

What I think we have here is what has become a classic debate between pizza made by pizza makers and pizza made by bread bakers. On the pizza side is someone like a Tom Lehmann who, although he is certainly familiar with the principles of bread making as a result of his perch at the AIB, does not use most such principles in his pizza making. As you know from the quoted material in Reply 440 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28694.html#msg28694, for pizza dough Tom advocates underkneading the dough and not using the gluten film test but rather a test (using an egg or walnut size piece of dough) that falls far short of a gluten film test. On the other side of the debate is someone like Peter Reinhart. Peter Reinhart spent almost his entire career on the bread side and only later ventured into pizza making in a big way. And his approach has been artisan in nature, where bread making principles like stretch and folds, preferments, autolyse and the like are incorporated into pizza making.

The reason why I asked you whether the dough after the multiple stretch and folds passed the gluten film test was to see if the dough was still on the underkneaded side, as per the advocacy of someone like Tom Lehmann, or whether the gluten was fully developed as per the advocacy of someone like Peter Reinhart. The distinction is important because the approach advocated by Tom Lehmann relies a great deal on modest up front gluten development and great reliance on biochemical gluten development of the gluten during fermentation, whereas the approach advocated by Peter Reinhart calls for full gluten development up front, in his case by multiple stretch and folds. And one of the outcomes achieved by Peter Reinhart's approach is a gluten matrix that can more effectively capture and retain the gases of fermentation. In theory, that should lead to a dough with increased volume during fermentation. Moreover, the rest periods between the stretch and folds, which are similar in certain respects to autolyse rest periods, should improve the hydration and development of the dough. All else being equal, the net result should be a greater oven spring, as well as some textural differences in the finished crumb and crust.

I don't recall ever reading anything by Tom Lehmann about using bread making principles like stretch and folds and autolyse in the context of pizza making. So, someone who comes down on the side of Tom Lehmann would say that he is making pizza and that Peter Reinhart is making bread in the shape of a pizza. I have learned that it is wise to stay out of such battles because people should be free to make their pizzas in any way that gives them pleasure and satisfaction. Tom Lehmann has spent the bulk of his career assisting mainly rank-and-file pizza professionals, where simple and straightforward procedures and economy of time and labor are important, if not a practical necessity. Peter Reinhart's methods lend themselves better to the home environment where home pizza makers can make pizzas in a more relaxed setting that might be considered more artisan in nature.

On the matter of crust coloration in relation to oven spring, I cannot recall ever reading about such a connection. That is not to say that there is no such connection, and if you tell me that the pizzas made from the doughs that were subjected to stretch and folds had more or better browning than those made using the dough hook, I would believe you. However, when I went back through this thread and looked at all of the photos for the second phase of your experiment, I did not detect a material difference in the browning of the crusts, especially on the tops of the pizzas. I also wondered whether the fact that that the pizzas all had different combination toppings might have affected the bakes, especially those with a lot of moisture-laden vegetables.

My study on how color is formed in pizza crusts has always centered on things like the denaturing of protein, caramelization of sugars, Maillard reactions, residual sugars, and pH. But, as I noted before, I have not read of any connection between oven spring and crust coloration. It would seem to me that a dough that has a fully developed gluten structure and a lot of captured gases would have insulative properties that would promote better bottom crust browning and less top browning. On that basis, I would expect more heat to pass through the dough hook pizzas to the tops of the pizzas. But, who knows? Maybe that heat helps cook the toppings and causes moisture in the dough to turn to steam that keeps the top crust from browning.

Peter

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2013, 10:30:13 AM »
Peter
Very observant synopsis, but I certainly don't want you to think I'm pitting breadmaking vs pizzamaking.  I ended up at this point quite by accident.  It all started when I started experimenting with a recipe found at breadmaking.com.  It got me wondering how the process would work with pizza...and it worked wonderfully, so good that I started questioning dough mixing procedures.  But, in the end, I realize that the dough strength created by the folding validates that dough should be mixed as long as it takes by hook for proper development.  When you are told to "undermix" a dough, "undermix" can mean a whole bunch of things to bakers....and I think that is where I had my problem, not only was it undermixed, it was way undermixed.  And I started realizing this when mixing my 60% hydrated doughs....I purposely attempted to try and develop the dough more with hook, and the results of my test show the doughs to be quite similar.  You know another point I will always have a problem with is the video of the "hen's egg" test.  That was a 12 minute mix, and it is labeled undermixed,  but it seems to me the end product is coming very close to the window pane stage..and maybe I'm just wrong.

So, all of this just leads me back to the basics of mixing dough.     There is a big BUT, in here though...and that has to do with high hydration doughs.  The mixer just does not do a good job of development...and that is why the "reball" became my best weapon.  I haven't had to reball anything that has been folded.  So, I will continue to use the fold technique either in conjunction with the hook or alone when using high hydrations.  And to be fair to Reinhart, he is just recently introducing the fold, but he is using hydration rates of up to 80%....and the fold makes this process very easy...so easy any beginner could do it.

I'm experimenting with a dough made with 4 folds in 5 minute intervals, and am simply amazed at how good it turned out.  Just another weapon to have Peter, you never have enough!

As for the browning qualities Peter, pictures don't always tell the story.  You have to look at the browning in conjunction with how long the pizza baked.  The doughs with less oven spring take longer to bake and thus longer to brown....or just the opposite, they take longer to brown and thus longer to bake.  With a poorly developed dough, I have observed some pizzas that were dark brown on the bottom and cool to the touch on top...no heat transfer.  That is why I think there might be something to the thought of oven spring relating to color....just my observations Peter..   and I thank you for yours.

JOhn

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2013, 02:36:40 AM »
I couldn't leave well enough alone...although I love everything about the folded doughs...I'm hoping I gave the mixed by hook doughs a fighting chance.  So, just one more experiment.  I made a 62% hydration dough using the recipe in this thread.  After mixing two minutes the dough was split in half..  This time one half was given 4 stretch and folds in a 15 minute time frame.  It was then balled and refrigerated.  The other half was mixed until it passed the "hen's egg" test.  It took my Kitchen Aid 11 minutes to develop the dough this far.  I don't think i've ever mixed a dough quite that long.  It was then balled and refrigerated.
The doughs are 56 hours old.  The first one was mixed by hook.  It took 5 minutes to bake in a 560 degree oven.  The bottom browned nicely, but the top didn't, not much in oven spring.  The pizza was delicious, all the same...not very remarkable though.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2013, 02:39:40 AM »
The second was is the folded dough....looks totally different than the other one.  Baked in 4 minutes 27 seconds, great oven spring, great browning, nice crispness, much stronger dough ball....excellent pizza!!
John

Online Pete-zza

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2013, 11:20:27 AM »
John,

I'm glad that you are continuing with your experiments even if they make me go back to the books to see if crust coloration is specifically related to oven spring :-D.

FYI, the twelve minute mix/knead time is pretty standard for Tom Lehmann for basic doughs. See, for example, Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554/topicseen.html#msg64554.

Peter


Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2013, 04:03:55 PM »
John,

I'm glad that you are continuing with your experiments even if they make me go back to the books to see if crust coloration is specifically related to oven spring :-D.

FYI, the twelve minute mix/knead time is pretty standard for Tom Lehmann for basic doughs. See, for example, Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554/topicseen.html#msg64554.

Peter
Peter, it is only because of all the work I've done with reballs, that I tried to make this connection.  For weeks and weeks, I used to make a dough batch with 5 or 6 dough balls that I would use one per day to see how they aged.  While 24, or 48 hour dough baked nicely, it was after then I noticed the dough running out of energy...that is, they had less oven spring, they browned slower and thus took longer to bake.  And after the reball, the oven spring was better, the browning was better, and thus the pizza baked in a shorter amount of time and as an added bonus, the pizza was nice and crisp.  These things happened 100% of the time without fail.  So, I think there might be a connection.

My big concern though now is: the stretch and fold.  What is so different about it versus standard mixing?  Is it the stretching of gluten which are already in alignment which makes it different.  It is a very clear difference, especially when using higher hydrated doughs, and if it's a sure thing for these doughs (I really believe this!), it has to make a difference in any dough.  Anyway, it's very interesting!!  Thanks for your remarks.
John

Offline pythonic

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2013, 03:36:28 PM »
I can confirm what John is saying about the reball.  My best pizzas were all reballed.

John:

What hydration were you using for your last 3 experiments?  68%?  Also, were u using All Trumps for all of these experiments?  I found a stretch and fold vid that I posted on here along time ago but the chef was using AP flour.  I think I'm gonna give your recipe a go to see what I am missing.

Here is the vid.





Nate
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 12:59:46 PM by pythonic »
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Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2013, 09:37:55 PM »
I can confirm what John is saying about the reball.  My best pizzas were all reballed.

John:

What hydration were you using for your last 3 experiments?  68%?  Also, were u using All Trumps for all of these experiments?  I found a stretch and food vid that I posted on here along time ago but the chef was using AP flour.  I think I'm gonna give your recipe a go to see what I am missing.

Here is the vid.





Nate
The one's above are 62%....If you're gonna give it a go, try a higher hydration..maybe 65 -68...this is where it is remarkable.  All the flour I am using currently is All Trumps.
John

Offline pythonic

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2013, 08:44:20 PM »
Here is my 1st attempt.  Went with 65% and bouncer Bromated flour.  I've had issues with this Bouncer flour not being able to handle hydration so I thought 65% would be perfect.  To my surprise the dryness in the air really affected my dough and being able to do the folds properly.  It wasnt wet in my opinion.  Another issue I had was my doughball was harder to open than my norm.  Much more pullback.  I'm thinking because it wasnt kneaded enough.  Anyways here are two attempts.  1st baked in 4:30 and 2nd was 4:15.  I tried a shorter preheat time (25 mins) but still got too much char for my liking).  This crust was fantastically light though.  A definite winner.  I will try my next attempt at 67% and try to tame my beast oven.  LOL.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 08:57:45 PM by pythonic »
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Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2013, 10:58:29 PM »
Here is my 1st attempt.  Went with 65% and bouncer Bromated flour.  I've had issues with this Bouncer flour not being able to handle hydration so I thought 65% would be perfect.  To my surprise the dryness in the air really affected my dough and being able to do the folds properly.  It wasnt wet in my opinion.  Another issue I had was my doughball was harder to open than my norm.  Much more pullback.  I'm thinking because it wasnt kneaded enough.  Anyways here are two attempts.  1st baked in 4:30 and 2nd was 4:15.  I tried a shorter preheat time (25 mins) but still got too much char for my liking).  This crust was fantastically light though.  A definite winner.  I will try my next attempt at 67% and try to tame my beast oven.  LOL.
.
I think they look great!!!!!!!  As far as opening the dough, if you are folding it (reball), don't be afraid to let it sit out 4 to 5 hours if you have to...this has helped me tremendously!!

John

Offline pythonic

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2013, 07:40:40 AM »
.
I think they look great!!!!!!!  As far as opening the dough, if you are folding it (reball), don't be afraid to let it sit out 4 to 5 hours if you have to...this has helped me tremendously!!

John

Thanks John.  Didnt have to reball these ones.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2013, 07:55:36 PM »
John,

Did u you use a poolish for all of your pies in this thread?  I didn't use a poolish for mine.
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Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2013, 12:42:02 AM »
John,

Did u you use a poolish for all of your pies in this thread?  I didn't use a poolish for mine.
Just the very beginning experiment used poolish...the rest I didn't

John


 

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