Author Topic: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results  (Read 2769 times)

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Offline fazzari

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One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« on: September 13, 2013, 01:32:43 AM »
I've had it in my mind the past couple months of experimenting, that the stretch and fold method of mixing produces a dough that far surpasses any mixing routine I've tried with paddle or hook.  In fact, the dough is so good, I haven't had to do any reballs, because the dough just doesn't need (knead) it.   That sets up the experiment:
The dough recipe really doesn't matter except I want to link the mix with the high hydration first experimental dough.  Using All Trumps (unbromated), I used the following recipe to make 60 ounces of dough

flour    (100%)     34.85oz
water  (  68%)     23.70oz
yeast   (     .3%)       .10oz
salt      (   3.0%)       1.05oz
sugar   (   2.0%)        .70oz
oil        (   2.0%)        .70 oz

And to be exact I made a poolish out of 17 ounces each flour and water and .05oz yeast .  This sat 16 hours.

I poured everything in the KitchenAid bowl, and using the paddle mixed on 1 for 60 seconds.  I then let the dough sit 5 minutes.  I then mixed the dough another 60 seconds on 2.  At this point, I split the dough exactly in half, one half went on a slightly oiled cookie sheet.....the other half I continued to mix with the dough hook for 4 more minutes.  The dough on the cookie sheet was stretched and folded at the 15, 30, and 45 minute mark.  At the 60 minute mark the dough was scaled and balled and refrigerated.  The dough was very gaseous and I could hear bubbles popping as I split the dough up. After the dough in the mixer was done, it was also scaled and balled and refrigerated.

From the minute I balled the doughs, it was apparent that the stretch and folded dough were already sitting higher in the containers than the simply mixed dough.

After sitting in the fridge for 31 hours I took a dough ball from each different mix to sit out.  I judged it would take about 4 hours for the doughs to be ready to bake.  The following picture shows the difference in dough balls....obviously, the dough ball sitting tallest was stretched and folded.
John




Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2013, 01:41:05 AM »
Now, on to the first bake.  The first dough I tried was the one mixed in the bowl by hook.  You can imagine trying to stretch a 68% dough, it would have fallen to the ground just from the weight of the dough.  But, I won the battle I made a pretty darned good pizza.  Take a look at it....see how flat it is.  there is good oven spring in the edges.  It was baked in a 560 degree deck and I have to say it took awhile to brown.  The pizza was alright, a little tough, a little crispy but very unremarkable.......this is a dough which would have been improved immensely with a reball.....

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2013, 01:45:48 AM »
Now take a look at the stretch and fold dough....Even at 68% it took a little energy to stretch it out....it was strong!!  This pizza cooked much quicker.  It has way more oven spring, and it has the egg shell bottom, and super soft middle.  For me, this pizza was everything I could ever want in a dough.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2013, 01:54:06 AM »
I have 2 more dough balls from each different mix for the next 2 days.  I know the one mixed with the hook won't make it already, but I'll give it a go anyway.  I think this opens up many many possibilities..  How many recipes have been trashed because we didn't like the texture say....and maybe it's the mixing that is most important.
A light also went off in my head regarding reballs.......reballs are nothing more than stretch and folds done at a later time in the process.  the reball builds strength and also improves gas retaining abilities...just like a stretch and fold.  When I first witnessed a baker doing stretch and folds I thought it was a joke...I know now, it's not...  Stretch and folds give great strength to doughs..The only downfall for me is it takes a little longer to make dough now!

John
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 02:00:23 AM by fazzari »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2013, 01:55:43 AM »
Am I reading this right that the stretch-and-fold dough was at room temp for almost an hour longer than the mixer dough before being balled and refrigerated?
Pizza is not bread.

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2013, 01:59:24 AM »
Ya, that's another variable that's different with the mixes.
John

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 02:13:04 AM »
Pretty big variable...

With 0.3% yeast and an extra hour at RT, having more rise isn't a result, it's expected.

Don't get me wrong, I've promoted stretch-and-fold for as long as anyone, but the results from this experiment are not valid.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2013, 08:13:18 AM »
Pretty big variable...

With 0.3% yeast and an extra hour at RT, having more rise isn't a result, it's expected.

Don't get me wrong, I've promoted stretch-and-fold for as long as anyone, but the results from this experiment are not valid.
Of course technically you are correct!!  But, a 60 minute RT rise on the hook mixed dough will not be the factor that brings these two mixed doughs closer together in strength.   As I experiment with differing hydrations, I'll add the RT rise to the standard mixed dough.

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2013, 01:44:51 AM »
The experiment of the two different mixes on the 68%hydrated doughs end right here as the results aren't even close.  Both doughs are 60 hours old.
The first dough was mixed by hook.  It was tough to stretch out because it was so loose.  I dare not hold it up to long as it would fall forever.  But, I got a nice round pie out of it.  This pizza took 7 minutes 30 seconds to bake in a 560 degree oven.  The oven spring is minimal except for the edges.  It is very flat.  It is tough.  I must say again though....a simple reball would make this an excellent pizza in every way, but that's not what I'm looking at right now.  I took a picture of the best side of the pizza, the other 3/4 was very flat.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2013, 01:49:59 AM »
The stretch and fold dough is an all star.  It had enough strength to withstand a good slapping to stretch.  An interesting point is this pizza baked in 5 minutes, which is 2 1/2 minutes less than the other one.  Good oven spring...great texture, crisp and tender.  All in all a very good pizza.....probably would have been better with a reball.....but in relative terms, it was monumentally better that the dough mixed by hook.
John


Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2013, 07:52:53 PM »
Phase one of this experiment is done.  Having made many, many dozens of these pizzas before using both methods...I knew the stretch and fold method would win hands down in a very highly hydrated dough.  I also know that say a 36% cracker dough could never be folded, so somewhere in between there will be a limit to where it won't matter how you mix your dough.

For this round I'm lowering the hydration rate to 63%
I made a 40 ounce piece of dough using the following recipe:
Flour    100%  All Trumps (unbromated)
water    63%
salt          2%
oil            2%
yeast       .3%

Everything placed in bowl.  Mixed 1 minute with paddle at first speed.  Rest 5 minutes. Mix 1 more minute with paddle at second speed.  Divide the dough in half.  One half the dough was stretch and folded at the 15, 30, and 45 minute mark.  It was then scaled and balled at the 60 minute mark and refrigerated.  The other half was mixed by dough hook, until there was a slight change in shine, and a small piece of dough could be pulled apart without breaking (ala the Dough Doctor).  This took about 5 minutes after the initial splitting of the dough in half.  The dough was then scaled and balled, and was refrigerated at the same time the stretch and fold doughs were refrigerated.  AS the doughs are going into the fridge you can see that the stretch and fold dough is higher in its container which I would expect, because the dough is loaded with gas after the fold.
John


Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2013, 08:02:16 PM »
The first pizza up will be the dough mixed by hook.  This dough is 36 hours old.  It stretches out very easily, has good strength.  The dough weighs 10 ounces and is stretched to 12 inches.  It is baked in a 560 degree oven, and it took 6 minutes and 45 seconds to finish.  It is nicely browned, crispy, and chewy.  It is also very flat except on the edges.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2013, 08:11:00 PM »
This one is the folded dough.  When you pour the ball on the board for stretching, you immediately feel the pushback from the dough as you press down on it. It is very strong, it stretches nicely....easily handles some slapping.  This dough was also baked in the same 560 degree oven.  It bakes in 5 minutes 10 seconds..a full 1 1/2 minutes less than the other dough.  This pizza also weighs 10 ounces and is stretched to 12 inches.  This pizza has "way" more oven spring....it browns way faster, it is crispy, but not chewy, very tender.  For my tastes (and 3 members of my crew) this was a top notch pizza.  Although we all might have different tastes when it comes to our pizza, at this time I'm just trying to show the relative differences you can get from a dough using different mixing techniques.
John

Offline scott123

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2013, 04:32:42 AM »
AS the doughs are going into the fridge you can see that the stretch and fold dough is higher in its container which I would expect, because the dough is loaded with gas after the fold.

The volume, to me, though, looks pretty comparable.  I'm not sure if I'm seeing a volumetric impact from the S&F at the 60 minute mark- not that it puts any of your findings into question, though.

Btw, this is a little off topic, but someone really needs to develop software that will analyze a photo of a cross section of a dough ball and compute it's volume. It has to be achievable.

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2013, 07:55:52 AM »
The volume, to me, though, looks pretty comparable.  I'm not sure if I'm seeing a volumetric impact from the S&F at the 60 minute mark- not that it puts any of your findings into question, though.

Btw, this is a little off topic, but someone really needs to develop software that will analyze a photo of a cross section of a dough ball and compute it's volume. It has to be achievable.
Scott
When I make comments about appearances and stuff like that, I'm trying to be as objective as I can be.  Regarding your comment on volume, if two doughs have the same volume (by the new software that comes along), but one dough stands taller...what will that predict?  Last night I lowered the hydration rate to 60%....you talk about a difference in dough balls going into the fridge....the one from the mixer was almost completely flat, while the s & f one was almost round.
john

Offline scott123

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2013, 08:11:02 AM »
John, I don't think height means a great deal in the pre-fridge dough ball.  One dough has had time to relax and the other is tight because it was balled more recently.  I don't necessarily think you need to do this experiment again, but I think if you balled the non folded dough right before refrigeration, the two should be identical.

Imo, it's the final product that matters, and I think your results are pointing to the superiority of a stretch and fold. As with re-balling, I tend to be a late adopter, but I will, at some point, try stretch and folds.  I know Chau is a big fan of S&Fs for his slightly wetter high altitude doughs.

Perhaps there's a connection between hydration and stretch & foldability?

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2013, 12:14:13 AM »

Perhaps there's a connection between hydration and stretch & foldability?
The stretch and fold regimen for higher hydration doughs is absolutely the best way to go because you simply cannot build strength when your dough is batterlike using the mixing bowl.  Also, the fold builds so much strength one doesn't have to use other methods like reballs to get the ultimate pizza.  Just my observation so far.
Continuing with the 63% hydration experiment.  The following doughs is 60 hours old and was mixed by hook.  A 10 ounce doughball easily stretched to 12 inches..not bad strength, held together well.  This one took 6 minutes 45 seconds to bake in a 580 degree oven.  It browned nicely, is crisp, but not tender, and there wasn't much oven spring.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2013, 12:17:22 AM »
This one is the folded dough.  A much stronger dough which actually offers resistance.  Easily stretched to 12 inches.  This one bakes 1 1/2 minutes shorter time than the other dough.  It browned nicely, is crisp and tender...and had much more oven spring.

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2013, 12:27:17 AM »

Imo, it's the final product that matters, and I think your results are pointing to the superiority of a stretch and fold. As with re-balling, I tend to be a late adopter, but I will, at some point, try stretch and folds.  I know Chau is a big fan of S&Fs for his slightly wetter high altitude doughs.
Scott
I'll probably go down a couple more notches in hydration just for fun and to see what happens...I want you to know though, every time I do a comparison bake, I marvel at how much faster the folded dough bakes, also how much browner it gets, how much more oven spring it gets, and I think about the home pizza guy trying to get a decent pizza from a home oven.  If the experiment continues to prove right, the fold might be just the thing for a guy at home to get the most out of his oven.  Anyway, just a thought.
John

Offline scott123

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Re: One dough batch, two different mixes, two results
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2013, 09:23:39 AM »
I have to admit, the correlation between oven spring and faster browning is something that I've never considered.  My best guess is that denser dough takes longer for heat to permeate it.

I do know that Roberto mentioned to me that if you slam dough as you're stretching it, as some of the Neapolitans are doing, you'll compress it, and that compression contributes to the propensity for a gum line (raw dough) at typical fast Neapolitan bake times. But that's slower cooking inside the crumb, not browning on the rim. Still, though, density may play a role.