Author Topic: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?  (Read 3342 times)

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Offline c0mpl3x

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building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« on: September 15, 2013, 09:55:17 PM »
recently, a good friend of mine moved back home, and is now a celiac.  i feel ashamed to attempt a pizza that won't build body and crumb, is there any ways to do this?
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Offline canadave

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2013, 10:01:02 PM »
recently, a good friend of mine moved back home, and is now a celiac.  i feel ashamed to attempt a pizza that won't build body and crumb, is there any ways to do this?

If I'm reading you correctly, are you simply asking how to make a good gluten-free pizza?  If so, google is your friend :)  There are tons of websites with a variety of recipes, and you can take your pick of which ones you like.  I personally have had pretty good luck with this one:

http://cymry-pa.blogspot.ca/2011/01/new-year-new-kitchen-adventures.html

....the only difference being, I add about 1/2 tsp of baking powder and about 3/4 tsp of sugar to the dry ingredients.  I just made the pizza today, and it was delicious.

In general, difference from "regular" pizzamaking is that you generally have to smooth out the dough with wet hands onto a baking pan.  Usually GF dough will be much wetter than "normal" dough...often even one step away from being a batter.  I prefer recipes though that result in a GF dough that is more of a "solid". 

Hope that helps...but again, really, Google is your friend.  Even on this website, in this forum, there are plenty of good recipes to try.  Good luck!

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2013, 10:19:27 PM »
thanks dave.  she lived in chicago for a few years before she became a celiac, and is hooked on deep dish.  but gluten rules it out.  i was planning on making one as a trial, seems to be a better use for the dough than a pan/screen style
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 08:45:38 AM »
Jon,

A few years ago, motivated by a gluten-free crustless deep-dish pizza that Malnati's sold, I made a couple versions of that pizza as part of a monthly challenge. I don't know all of the factors that govern whether a particular food is appropriate for celiacs, but the crustless deep-dish pizzas I made used no flour, only rice flour for one of the versions. You can read about my versions at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10399.msg93817.html#msg93817 and at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10399.msg94062.html#msg94062.

Peter

Offline Skee

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2013, 02:34:28 PM »
Detroit style GF pizza is easy to make.  I posted a picture of an early version here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg263541.html#msg263541
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 02:35:59 PM by Skee »

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 09:18:05 PM »
tomorrow is the big day.  using gluuteny brand (local place) pizza mix (hers) and my skills/recipe.  shooting for a deep dish. hopefully it will take form for such
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Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2013, 09:39:00 PM »
Bam.  used bobs red mill GF mix, the one with the yeast packet inside.

but, here is the recipe.  BTB style, id say.

1lb (454g) BRM GF mix
180g water (will use 220 next)
25g olive oil
35g corn oil
35g butter, warm (dropped in when mixing)
15g yeast
5g salt
10g powdered milk

still looking for a way to lighten and flake the dough, though.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 10:03:41 PM by c0mpl3x »
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Offline doodneyy

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2013, 01:07:05 AM »
Hi Canada!  ;)
would you mind posting some of your no-glut pizzas pretty please.
Also, what are you following for your recipe ...if you would be so kind as to share?

Much thanks.

Dood.

Offline doodneyy

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2013, 01:09:09 AM »
Thank you c0mpl3x..
Nice shots.
How was the flavor of the dough?
Dood.

Offline red kiosk

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2013, 05:17:23 PM »
Hey Dood,

Here's a few pics from some of the pies I made using your recipe and a BlackStone oven. Next ones will have better (some) corniche, for I was definitely at the beginning of the GF dough-forming learning curve.  :-D Taste was much better than I ever expected. Three days in the refrigerator with the Ischia SD starter did the trick. My gluten-free pizza eating friend brought all the leftovers home with him. Take care!

Jim

« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 05:20:00 PM by red kiosk »
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Offline doodneyy

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2013, 12:47:36 AM »
Hey Dood,

Here's a few pics from some of the pies I made using your recipe and a BlackStone oven. Next ones will have better (some) corniche, for I was definitely at the beginning of the GF dough-forming learning curve.  :-D Taste was much better than I ever expected. Three days in the refrigerator with the Ischia SD starter did the trick. My gluten-free pizza eating friend brought all the leftovers home with him. Take care!

Jim
Holy Shizzola batman! 
Do Not Change anything....  No-Glut doesn't get better than that...just keep the pics coming.
Glad I could be of help. 
Oh "Black Stone" should think about hiring you cuz...if you can do that most "Fabulous No-G" in their oven then....

Dood.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 01:02:33 AM by doodneyy »

Offline Dorkmeat

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2014, 09:19:23 AM »
Hey Dood,

Here's a few pics from some of the pies I made using your recipe and a BlackStone oven. Next ones will have better (some) corniche, for I was definitely at the beginning of the GF dough-forming learning curve.  :-D Taste was much better than I ever expected. Three days in the refrigerator with the Ischia SD starter did the trick. My gluten-free pizza eating friend brought all the leftovers home with him. Take care!

Jim

Jim - wow, great looking pizzas.  Can you or Dood linky me the recipe please?! 

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2014, 09:36:19 PM »
oops, read too fast. mods feel free to delete this single post
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 05:22:42 PM by c0mpl3x »
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Offline red kiosk

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2014, 07:34:07 AM »
Jim - wow, great looking pizzas.  Can you or Dood linky me the recipe please?!

Sure,  it's been evolving over the past few months. I'll get together the latest version (%) and post it later today. Key, is using LOTS of the GF sourdough starter that I have been feeding for the last six months with Caputo Fiore-Glut and a three-day ferment in the refrigerator. It's basically a neapolitan recipe with Caputo Fiore-Glut, but almost half the flour percentage is sourdough starter. Extra salt and a higher hydration. The dough is impossible to transfer unless you have a Superpeel and I place them in the Blackstone with a stone temp around 850-875F. Here's a few pics from one of my Blackstone GF bakes. Take care!

Jim

« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 07:39:17 AM by red kiosk »
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Offline red kiosk

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2014, 06:29:39 PM »
Jim - wow, great looking pizzas.  Can you or Dood linky me the recipe please?!

OK, here ya' go. Hat's off to Doodneyy though, for his recipe is what started me on this GF journey. First off, I activated a new "Cultures for Health" Ishia sourdough culture with Caputo Fiore-Glut. This was definitely not easy task and took 3-4 feeding a day for almost two weeks to get it fully activated (luckily I work out of the house), but once it was, that tangy sourdough aroma was what this GF dough really needed. I actually didn't use the starter until after about two months of feedings to make sure it was strong and able to be easily activated after being in the refrigerator for a while. Whereas my regular Ischia sourdough starter takes 3-4 hours after feeding to be fully activated and ready to use, the GF version needs 6-8 hours after feeding to be fully activated and ready to use. Currently I keep this GF Ishia sourdough starter in the refrigerator and feed it once every week with Caputo Fiore-Glut. Lately I have been making my dough balls about 300g, as I find that gives me a 11-12" pizza with enough extra to form a respectable corniche. Here's the recipe percentages:

Caputo Fiore-Glut:  100%
GF Ishia  Sourdough Starter:  43%
Water: 70% (about 30g of water used to dissolve the IDY)
Sea Salt:  4%
IDY:  0.7%

I put all the flour, except 75g in the mixing bowl. Mix in salt and then add all the liquids, including the 30 g with the IDY. Then add all the starter and mix at low speed for 3-4 minutes. Let sit covered for 30-40 minutes. Mix again for 4-6 minutes. At this point you can add the additional 75 g of flour in small amounts until the dough looks right. I know "right" is hard to convey, but 9 out of 10 times all 75g goes in since I recently upped the hydration from 68% to 70 percent. I let the dough sit covered once again for 15 minutes and then dump it onto a Fiore-Glut dusted stone countertop. After sprinkling it with a bit of Fiore-Glut, I divide the large ball into smaller balls and place them into EVO OILED individual Glad storage containers. These are placed in the refrigerator for at least 3 days and then removed to sit at room temperature for 6 hours before making the pizzas.

I plop the dough ball out of the GLAD storage container onto a Fiore-Glut dusted stone countertop and use my fingers to open the dough, as one would do with traditional pizza dough. After flipping it once (and dusting more with Fiore-Glut) when it gets to  about 7" in diameter, it can't be flipped anymore and I use my fingers to push/form it out to it's final diameter and thickness. Corniche forming is the hardest and takes a bit of practice and experimentation, but is worth the effort. I usually add all the topping at this point and use a SuperPeel Pro to move the fully assembled pizza off the counter and onto the launching peel. I gave up using a regular metal pizza peel to launch the pizza for the amount of Fiore-Glut needed for a successful launch resulted in so much burned GF flour on the Blackstone stone, that it affected the taste. I now have a WFO SuperPeel and either transfer the pizza from the SuperPeel pro to that or just pick up the pizza off the counter with the WFO SuperPeel. Little or no Fiore-Glut is needed for the launch with the SuperPeels and there is no build-up of burnt flour on the hot stone. I launch the pizzas into the Blackstone, with a stone temperature of 850-875F and they bake for no more than 2 minutes. I'm still working on tweaks to the recipe for corniche leoparding, but have to remember these are still GF pizzas.

 I've had guests that have tasted both my regular "gluten" Ishia sour dough pizzas and these GF Ishia sour dough pizzas and have said if I didn't tell them they would not have know they were GF.  I feel that the addition of lots of GF sour dough starter adds to the workability of the dough and gives it a taste that closely resembles a true sour dough neapolitan pizza. One thing I have noticed is that GF pizzas cannot be eaten cold in the morning like regular pizzas, but once heated, they are just as good. YMMV.  Hope this helps and please feel free to ask questions. Take care!

Jim
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Offline Dorkmeat

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2014, 07:52:22 PM »
Jim, great write up.   Thanks for sharing.

What is your process for your blackstone (i.e. full blast for 20 min;  and then 15 min at 1/4 throttle)?  Have you performed any mods on yours?

Can you provide a cross-section cut of your pie next time you bake one pls as I'd be very interested in the oven spring you get with your dough.

Offline red kiosk

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2014, 08:13:19 PM »
Dorkmeat,

Usual Blackstone process is 20 minute warm-up at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle, launch temp at around 850-875F and then full blast for baking. I idle it between bakes with about 1/4 throttle. I have the chauflector installed as well as the washers under the stone. Space between the steel stone dish and the bottom of the opening is around 1/2". My motor is a heavy duty, AC one that I had hanging around from my HastyBake grille and rotation is opposite of the one that comes stock with the Blackstone. I do move the pizza around a bit on the stone as I try to get some leoparding and sometimes dome it a bit if necessary. I'll take pics  of the crumb next bake. It's really hard 'cause as soon as they come out of the oven, someone grabs the pan, cuts the pieces and starts passing them out. I just need to do a "lab session" some afternoon with just me, the pizzas and the camera. I must repeat that the taste from a sourdough GF pizza is VERY close to a traditional pizza. There are other sourdough cultures that are even more "tangy" than the Ischia and I plan to experiment with a few of those too. It's just a PITA, to get them activated with GF flour. Hope this helps and take care!

Jim
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Offline pantalones

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2014, 11:29:24 PM »
Despite the Caputo name, fioreglut is one of the worst tasting G-F flours on the market. Any non G-F taster knows the difference. It tastes of rice, potato, gum, and leaves a noticeable ricey/sweet aftertaste. Part of the pizza experience is how that dry crust hits your tongue, and the dry taste of Fioreglut is all wrong. Yes it leopards nicely but that's not worth it.

After trying nearly every G-F flour I could and growing the usual sourdo.com italian cultures for the past year I have settled on King Arthur G-F flour.

The two images attached are KA flour, 64% hydration, Calmadoli culture, no ADY, cooked in blackstone @ ~1000 F, pulling back the flames once the pizza goes in.

My only issue is really trying to find a way to get the dough to stretch better. I have to spread it using fingers and thumbs, as all of these G-F flours seem to tear at the slightest opportunity.

Offline pantalones

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2014, 11:34:09 PM »
Dorkmeat,

Usual Blackstone process is 20 minute warm-up at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle, launch temp at around 850-875F and then full blast for baking. I idle it between bakes with about 1/4 throttle. I have the chauflector installed as well as the washers under the stone. Space between the steel stone dish and the bottom of the opening is around 1/2". My motor is a heavy duty, AC one that I had hanging around from my HastyBake grille and rotation is opposite of the one that comes stock with the Blackstone. I do move the pizza around a bit on the stone as I try to get some leoparding and sometimes dome it a bit if necessary. I'll take pics  of the crumb next bake. It's really hard 'cause as soon as they come out of the oven, someone grabs the pan, cuts the pieces and starts passing them out. I just need to do a "lab session" some afternoon with just me, the pizzas and the camera. I must repeat that the taste from a sourdough GF pizza is VERY close to a traditional pizza. There are other sourdough cultures that are even more "tangy" than the Ischia and I plan to experiment with a few of those too. It's just a PITA, to get them activated with GF flour. Hope this helps and take care!

Jim

Really great info, thanks. I do move mine around a little too, but i don't put it on full blast during bake because this often burns the cheese or any toppings. I'll try some of the tips in this thread. The only problem really with leoparding and burning on the G-F flour is that it makes the pizza bitter. On wheat flour, the burn turns to ash and goes away. On G-F flour it seems to create this disgusting rice lattice that looks like burned caramel. When this happens on the bottom it makes the pizza almost inedible.

Sorry if my terms aren't right...I am always looking to improve my knowledge or get this system down right. So far the biggest improvements have been ditching FioreGlut and getting the blackstone. All that nonsense about the Big Green Egg...my gosh...I wasted days of my life trying to get that thing up to 900. :)

Offline pantalones

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Re: building strength of 'high gluten' dough in gluten free?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2014, 11:37:16 PM »
Whereas my regular Ischia sourdough starter takes 3-4 hours after feeding to be fully activated and ready to use, the GF version needs 6-8 hours after feeding to be fully activated and ready to use.

Actually this is a really good point as well. On my regular starters, pre-gluten-free, I could take one out of the fridge after two weeks and use it right in some dough, it'd be hungry and springy regardless. With G-F flour KA, Caputo, Bob's, Zest (San Carlos, CA bakery), etc. I need to do a full day feeding cycle, then use it in dough, or else it won't be fully activated for use.


 

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