Author Topic: 123 Pizza  (Read 8970 times)

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scott123

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123 Pizza
« on: September 16, 2013, 04:05:03 AM »
I was looking through the NY style pizza recipes on the forum looking for an easy approach- one that didn't use exotic ingredients or equipment, and couldn't find one that I felt covered all the bases.  So, here's my contribution to the easy equation (note: this is easy, but not fast).

An important caveat:  This is very far from the 'perfect' pizza.  This is only for people that don't want to spend a great deal of time or money on special hearth materials and flour.  This will make a good pie, but not a truly great one. It will be better than anything most people can get locally, though. If you think you might ever take NY style pizza seriously, then go here instead (the payoff is gargantuan, imo, for a little added complexity):

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.msg206639.html#msg206639

Step #1. Order this:

http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-18x18x1square.aspx

or, if you're oven isn't large enough, one of these:

http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-16x16x34square.aspx

Makes one 16" pie (use the dough calculator for scaling up):

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (room temp) (61%):
IDY (.5%):
Salt (1.75%):
Soybean Oil (3%):
Sugar (1%):
Total (167.25%):
289.69 g  |  10.22 oz | 0.64 lbs
176.71 g  |  6.23 oz | 0.39 lbs
1.45 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
5.07 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.91 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
8.69 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.93 tsp | 0.64 tbsp
2.9 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
484.51 g | 17.09 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.085

Measure dry (no yeast). Measure wet (+ yeast). Mix to dissolve yeast. Dry into wet. Stir with a metal spoon until it's too stiff to stir, then knead, by hand or by machine, until the dough is just about smooth (3-6 minutes). Ball and place in lightly oiled, large round disposable covered containers. Refrigerate 2 days. Remove from fridge 3 hours before baking.

Pre-heat stone for 60-80 minutes at the highest setting your oven goes to (using convection, if your oven has it). Stone should be positioned on an oven shelf that's about 6-7" from the broiler.

Dust wooden peel with flour
Stretch skin to 16" and place on peel
Quickly dress the pizza, shaking between each topping to make sure the skin doesn't stick
Launch
Turn pizza every couple minutes with metal peel
Bake until pizza top and bottom are well colored
Use broiler if top needs more browning
Retrieve, using metal peel, onto cooling rack
Allow to cool 7 minutes
Transfer to 18" metal pizza pan
Slice and serve

Here's a video on stretching (ignore the rolling pin and tossing parts)



While I believe I've made this as simple and easy as possible, there's a couple aspects that can't be simplified.  First, the dough should be between 2x and 3x the original volume before stretching.  If it's overblown, next time, dial back the yeast. If it hasn't expanded enough, next time, use more yeast. Tweak the yeast in small increments (such as round/scant). Secondly, stretching and launching skills aren't going to happen overnight. Start off by using lots of flour- both on the skin as you're stretching it and on the peel. As you get more comfortable, dial back the flour.


Offline mbrulato

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 08:52:36 AM »
Thanks so much for sharing.  In your first link, your recipe indicates soybean oil.  I've never used this before and usually use EVOO in my dough.  Is this just a matter of taste, authenticity or handling?
Mary Ann

scott123

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 09:14:09 AM »
Thanks so much for sharing.  In your first link, your recipe indicates soybean oil.  I've never used this before and usually use EVOO in my dough.  Is this just a matter of taste, authenticity or handling?

Actually, thanks for pointing that out.  I fixed it so this recipe matches.

It's mostly for authenticity.  NY pizzerias don't add olive oil to dough. Taste plays a part, though.  Unless you're making a bread that's supposed to have an olive-y taste, imo, it doesn't really work in pizza.  It doesn't ruin the pizza, but the neutral taste of soybean tastes a bit better. It might be a matter of imprinting, though.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 09:23:08 AM »
Scott, would using shortening in NY dough be uncommon?
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Mmmph

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2013, 09:47:52 AM »
Once the weather cools off down south, I'll give this one a go.

Can I sub Corn or Canola oil??


I love my Axner 18x18x1 cordierite stone. It lives in my oven. I'll have to get a bigger peel, though.
Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato

scott123

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 10:26:31 AM »
Scott, would using shortening in NY dough be uncommon?

Craig, I'm not privy to that many NY area pizzeria formulas, so I can't say, for certain, how common shortening is.  I feel fairly confident when I speak about olive oil because I know how cheap NY pizzerias can be.  In addition, to my taste buds, olive oil is detectable in dough- and I've never tasted it.  Shortening is impossible to detect.  There is still the expense though, and shortening is more expensive than olive oil, so that, in itself, would discourage use.

I can't say that no NY area pizzerias use shortening, but I'd wager that it's a very small number- probably about as high as KASL or KABF. I'd really be surprised if it were more than one or two places.

And, just to be clear, olive oil is used as well- and I'm sure at considerably more places than shortening, but it's definitely far from the norm. I'd wager to say that, because of health concerns, olive oil use is up, so it's possible that newer places might be reaching for it more frequently than the older ones, but I think that most people that know their NY pizza understand that vegetable oil is king.

I know Chau's a big fan of shortening, as are others on the forum. I'm not running out to use it, but I also don't discourage it.  It's still neutral tasting soybean oil- in a different form. If someone were going to stray from the canon, I'd much rather they turn to shortening than to olive oil- regardless of the feelings of their doctor ;D

scott123

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 10:30:57 AM »
Once the weather cools off down south, I'll give this one a go.

Can I sub Corn or Canola oil??


I love my Axner 18x18x1 cordierite stone. It lives in my oven. I'll have to get a bigger peel, though.

I think canola is more neutral tasting than corn, but, imo, soybean tastes better. If canola is all you've got, sure, why not?

Mmmph, I can't, at this very second, picture any of your NY pies. Aren't your NY skills somewhat advanced?  This recipe is really for beginners. If you've got an axner stone, though, it might be worth it.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 10:40:08 AM by scott123 »

Offline Mmmph

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 11:47:12 AM »


Mmmph, I can't, at this very second, picture any of your NY pies. Aren't your NY skills somewhat advanced?

I've never posted a NY pizza, but NY pizza was the first job I ever had in the pizza industry. Deno's Pizza in Wilmington NC, 1986.
I was taught how to open, stretch, toss, sauce, cheese, itemize, bake, box and cut an 18" pizza. We used frozen dough, though.
Like I said, when the temps drop, I'll fire up the oven.
Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato

scott123

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 11:58:14 AM »
I've never posted a NY pizza, but NY pizza was the first job I ever had in the pizza industry. Deno's Pizza in Wilmington NC, 1986.

Oh, okay, perhaps I was ascribing your NP success to NY.  Still, your skills should cross over.  I think, because NP is harder, that it's probably easier to make the move from NP to NY than it is the other way around.

Edit: focus, if you can, on the edge stretch. I've never seen anyone use the edge stretch for Neapolitan- it's a critical component for NY and hard to master. That's the only advice I'd have for someone crossing over.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 12:00:03 PM by scott123 »

Offline DenaliPete

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2013, 09:33:43 AM »
So Scott, you stated that this will produce a good pie, but not a truly great one.  What do you think differs between this and what you consider a great pie, and will you be posting that recipe at some point?


*edit* Nevermind, I looked at your post more closely and that answered my question.

Pete
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 09:35:16 AM by DenaliPete »


Offline Serpentelli

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2013, 10:15:55 AM »
Scott,

Thanks for posting this. I will definitely use both the recipe and the workflow you suggest.

I have already cut my huge wooden peel down to the size where its got 0.003mm clearance on either side of the WFO door so I can do these in the oven.

Already drooling.... :drool:

John K
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scott123

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2013, 01:12:23 PM »
What do you think differs between this and what you consider a great pie, and will you be posting that recipe at some point?

Pete, as you figured out, I did post my other recipe, but, as far as the differences go, the better recipe, because of the superior heat transfer of steel, produces a pizza with better oven spring and a bit better char. In addition, because the other recipe is a lot more specific regarding temperatures, it will be a lot more consistent.

John, like Mmmph, I was under the impression that your skills were pretty advanced, but if you want to try this out, go for it.  If you do have your oven at your disposal, then I'd probably suggest going with my more difficult recipe, though, because a  WFO, if tended correctly, can recreate a steel plate oven environment quite well- in fact, I think the general consensus is that a WFO can outperform steel plate for NY style pizza.

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 01:26:01 PM »


John, like Mmmph, I was under the impression that your skills were pretty advanced, but if you want to try this out, go for it. 

Scott,

Mmmph's skills are advanced. I often times get lucky and my pies may give the appearanceof someone who is skilled, but it is more by luck than diligence! That's why I'm glad to have things spelled out so clearly and simply here, as you've done!

Thanks again!

John K
I'm not wearing hockey pads!

Offline redox

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2013, 04:45:10 PM »
It's more difficult opening the dough on wood, even harder if you're me.  :-D I bought a 16"x14" glass cutting board (anyone who cuts on a glass cutting board deserves what happens to their knives) it's textured on the topside but smooth on the reverse. So I'm planning to practice my dough handling on the flipside of the glass. I'm never getting better at dough handling if I only make a pizza or two a week.

Offline mbrulato

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2013, 06:27:03 PM »
It's more difficult opening the dough on wood, even harder if you're me.  :-D I bought a 16"x14" glass cutting board (anyone who cuts on a glass cutting board deserves what happens to their knives) it's textured on the topside but smooth on the reverse. So I'm planning to practice my dough handling on the flipside of the glass. I'm never getting better at dough handling if I only make a pizza or two a week.

Make a batch of dough to practice with and use the video that Scott posted.  It helped me tremendously :)
Mary Ann

Offline redox

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2013, 06:50:01 PM »
Make a batch of dough to practice with and use the video that Scott posted.  It helped me tremendously :)
My plan, exactly! ;D

Offline mbrulato

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2013, 10:02:05 AM »
Actually, thanks for pointing that out.  I fixed it so this recipe matches.

It's mostly for authenticity.  NY pizzerias don't add olive oil to dough. Taste plays a part, though.  Unless you're making a bread that's supposed to have an olive-y taste, imo, it doesn't really work in pizza.  It doesn't ruin the pizza, but the neutral taste of soybean tastes a bit better. It might be a matter of imprinting, though.

Scott,

I just remembered that I have vegetable and grape seed oil in my pantry.  Which do you think would be better?

Mary Ann
Mary Ann

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2013, 12:56:07 PM »
I just remembered that I have vegetable and grape seed oil in my pantry.  Which do you think would be better?
Mary Ann,

It appears that Scott may have missed your post but just about all oil that is called vegetable oil is soybean oil. However, once in a while you might find soybean oil mixed with another vegetable oil in a small amount and be called vegetable oil. So, if it matters to you, it is a good idea to check the label to see what you are getting. Grapeseed oil is a fine oil but it is not an oil that pizza operators who specialize in the NY style would be likely to use. It is too expensive.

Peter

Offline mbrulato

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2013, 01:04:10 PM »
Thank you, Peter.  I feel sort of silly that I didn't know that  :-D. But my instincts told me to use the vegetable oil in my dough the other day.  Glad to know I made the right choice  :)
Mary Ann

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Re: 123 Pizza
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2013, 02:15:58 PM »
Hi all,

I made a pizza with Scott123's simple dough method. I used All Trumps non-bromated for the dough.  I actually left it in the refrigerator for three days instead of two due to logistical issues.  I reballed after the first day.  The dough stretched very nicely and was easy to work with.  I didn't quite get to 16" but I think it was over 15", which is a lot bigger than I usually make.

Baked this up this morning in the Blackstone oven. I got the oven good and hot (maybe to 750 on the floor) and then backed off the heat a bit. The bake time was about 4 minutes I would say.  I got a pretty nice bottom char on it.  The flavor of this pizza was very good. I will try Scott123's other recipe as well and see what the difference is. 

Thanks for the recipe Scott123.  I did put the recipe up on the dough generator site as well. 

Regards,

TinRoof