Author Topic: Dual oven effect when using large baking surfaces  (Read 2028 times)

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Online JD

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Re: Dual oven effect when using large baking surfaces
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2013, 07:55:36 PM »
There must be some history I'm missing here, because I don't see what the issue is.  It makes sense that the bottom of the oven will be hotter with the bottom burner running with your setup as mentioned.  When it's time to cook you turn off the bottom burner and crank up the broiler, you'll never get a balanced high speed bake in a home oven without the broiler providing top heat.  That makes this a non issue.  The bottom temperature will drop pretty quickly and at this point the plate will be transferring heat to the bottom of the oven, not vice versa.

No history, just curious why my steel results were not aligning with others. If I were to reduce this entire  thread down to one question, it would be:

Does a gas oven with a steel plate perform the same as an electric oven with a steel plate?


« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 08:26:50 PM by JD »
Josh


Offline shuboyje

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Re: Dual oven effect when using large baking surfaces
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2013, 08:31:42 PM »
Given the same strength broiler absolutely.  Once you flip from the bake element to the broiler the steel is simply thermal mass, what heat source was used to store the energy in it is irrelevant, only the amount of mass, it's conductivity, and it's temperature.
-Jeff

Online JD

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Re: Dual oven effect when using large baking surfaces
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2013, 08:43:39 PM »
Given the same strength broiler absolutely.  Once you flip from the bake element to the broiler the steel is simply thermal mass, what heat source was used to store the energy in it is irrelevant, only the amount of mass, it's conductivity, and it's temperature.


Do you understand why I feel they are not the same though? A gas oven has to be vented, an electric doesn't. A vent = loss of heat which means the heating element needs to add more heat to make up for what is lost. This is why I think I'm getting two different "oven" temperatures and when all is said and done, a higher steel temp.


Josh

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Dual oven effect when using large baking surfaces
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2013, 08:56:30 PM »
I understand everything you are saying up until the point it leads to a higher steel temperature.  When?  The starting steel temperature is the starting temperature, whatever temperature you choose to launch at has nothing to do with how you got there, again all that matters is the temperature, mass, and conductivity.  Once you launch, in my opinion and experience, the bake element needs to be off and the broiler on with the goal of it staying on the entire bake.  At this point the steel temperature will be dropping due to the fact it is now a heat source, so the temperature will not be higher regardless of the oven type.  When is the steel temperature higher?

Outside of all the technical info I've cooked tons of pizzas on steel plate in my gas fired oven with no issues, and I've used the same plate in family's electric oven with near identical results. 
-Jeff

Online JD

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Re: Dual oven effect when using large baking surfaces
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2013, 09:09:31 PM »
Forget about what happens after you launch, it's not really something I'm questioning. This is the $66,000 question, and yes I know I need an IR!:

So what's the point? Well if the lower oven stabilized around 575* and the upper at 535*, what would my steel plate be?

My data is my data, this is my oven at equilibrium. So what would the steel plate temperature be? Will it be the temperature I set my oven to? I don't think so and I attribute this to the oven being gas.


Scott, have you ground your teeth away yet?



Why do I even care? Like you say the starting temperature is the starting temperature, who cares how you got there.

If I'm bringing my steel plate to a friends house and they have an electric oven, I want to know for a fact that it will perform exactly as a gas oven. Additionally with all the great advice on this board, I'd want to know for a fact that using a steel plate in a gas oven is the same as an electric.

I've had some serious burning after 3 minutes with my oven at 540, and it's quite possible that my steel plate was actually at 575* after learning the results of my temp test yesterday.



« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 09:14:00 PM by JD »
Josh

Online JD

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Re: Dual oven effect when using large baking surfaces
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2013, 09:15:34 PM »
Outside of all the technical info I've cooked tons of pizzas on steel plate in my gas fired oven with no issues, and I've used the same plate in family's electric oven with near identical results.

Well if you've actually used both then that's a strong argument in your favor.

 
Josh

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Dual oven effect when using large baking surfaces
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2013, 09:22:17 PM »
Now we've gotten to the bottom of it.  That's what I was missing.  Using thermal mass without a way to measure it's temperature is going to be a crap shoot.  You oven does not use a 500F heat source to heat to 500F, it uses an burner or element at a much higher temperature.  This leaves the potential for thermal mass to become hotter then the thermostat set point.  Then factor in your home oven does not run on a PID that maintains a 0.1F temperature range, it's thermostat probably turns on the burner 10F bellow the set point and turns it off 10F above.  You've got 20F of swing right there. 

Again leaving the land of theory, in my oven my plate is always hotter then the thermostat set point when I turn off the bake element.  My oven goes to 525, and my plate is generally around 565.   
-Jeff

Online JD

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Re: Dual oven effect when using large baking surfaces
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2013, 09:32:05 PM »
Again leaving the land of theory, in my oven my plate is always hotter then the thermostat set point when I turn off the bake element.  My oven goes to 525, and my plate is generally around 565.


So there it is, although I do not know my steel temp I know my lower chamber temp is about 40* higher than my upper where the thermocouple is. Yes I'm having a hard time leaving the land of theory, but it's compelling theoretical evidence isn't it  ::)

When you used the electric oven, did you take IR temps of your steel?

I appreciate the input, you're well respected on this forum for a reason.
Josh

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Dual oven effect when using large baking surfaces
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2013, 09:38:31 PM »
Yeah, I took IR readings in the electric oven also.  IR guns, don't leave home without one, lol.
-Jeff

scott123

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Re: Dual oven effect when using large baking surfaces
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2013, 09:07:57 AM »
Scott, have you ground your teeth away yet?

No teeth grinding here.  You just want to completely understand what's going on. I get it.  Btw, I haven't used my steel as much as Jeff, but I have used it in a gas and an electric oven and results have been pretty much identical.  I've used an IR thermometer, though to confirm the temps are the same.

The one thing I'd be careful about with using steel for the first time in an electric oven is the broiler.  In my experience, gas broilers tend to be substantially weaker than electric.  With my broiler, if the broiler is on (red) for more than half of the 4 minute bake, the top burns, but on the gas oven I've used, having the broiler on for the duration seemed to work well. Also, this is a bit theoretical, but I believe that the further you place the plate from the broiler, the more even/less contrasty the browning. You can't place the plate so far, though, that the top doesn't bake fast enough. I haven't tried this yet, but, instead of using my broiler at a distance of 6" for half the bake, I might try a distance of 8" for the whole bake.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 09:11:08 AM by scott123 »


Online JD

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Re: Dual oven effect when using large baking surfaces
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2013, 09:37:20 AM »
I've used an IR thermometer, though to confirm the temps are the same.

If you remember, were your steel temps equal to your oven set temp too?
Josh

Online JD

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Re: Dual oven effect when using large baking surfaces
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2013, 12:16:32 PM »
As an update to this thread for future reference, I learned why I am getting this dual oven effect.

I found last night that my steel is just barely too wide so the oven door is actually cracked open. It is not noticeable by eye, but it is by feel since it is unusually hot by the top and sides of the door. Since the door is left cracked open, heat escapes the top "oven" and in return makes the oven cycle more frequently which causes a really hot environment in the lower "oven".

Feels good to finally close the door on this one.

Pun intended.

Josh