Author Topic: Overly elastic dough  (Read 2388 times)

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Offline bbqchuck

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Overly elastic dough
« on: September 16, 2013, 06:19:13 PM »
Hello Tom, et al,
I've been using both KABF and Smart & Final store brand La Romanella "high gluten" (approx 13.3%) malted, no bromate flours. 

I've noticed that both have been giving me trouble with being overly elastic. 

Being a beginner, it's like trying to read a diagnosis journal with a welding helmet on.   ;D 

I do know now that I'm under working the dough and not getting it smooth enough.  Would this contribute to elasticity?

Does more fermentation reduce elasticity?

Many thanks
Chuck



Offline chasenpse

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 09:53:51 PM »
I'm no pro by any means but I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) more fermentation = more time for gluten development = more elasticity. How long do you ferment for, and what hydration is your dough?
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Offline bbqchuck

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 11:25:25 PM »
The recipe I've been using is from a Lehman/Pete-zza variation from reply 31 of this thread. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.20.html. except I'm using the previously mentioned flour.  62% hydration.

Offline Morgan

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2013, 05:26:29 AM »
I have had problems with overly elastic dough and the reason has always been overfermented dough. You might have different story, but you might look that just in case. If you are a beginner you might not know when the dough is just right.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 05:28:11 AM by Morgan »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2013, 07:55:10 AM »
Chuck;
Your problem is one of two. Either you are underfermenting the dough or you are using the wrong type of flour (excessively high in protein content) for the dough management procedure you're using. Not knowing anything about the type of pizza you're making, the formula/recipe, or your dough management procedure, the best I can offer at this time is to say that fermentation reduces the elasticity of the dough. If you are using a refrigerated method of dough management it is common to allow the dough to cold ferment for 2 to 5-days. and if you are using the dough the same day to make your pizzas and fermenting the dough at room temperature a minimum of 6-hours of fermentation time should be used. If you want to attack the problem through the use of an additive, I'd suggest using something like PZ-44 (a blend consisting of L-cysteine (an amino acid) and dairy whey), or "dead yeast" which is rich in glutathione (also an amino acid). The dead yeast product is available from just about any yeast manufacturer while PZ-44 is available from Agropure (formerly Foremost Farms USA). You might Google either of these to see if you can fins a source selling in quantities of less than 50-pounds. Since both of these are used at a range of 2 to 4% of the total flour weight you will find that a little goes a long ways. One other thing you could also add to the dough to help reduce the elasticity is onion and/or garlic powder. Used individually or in combination at around 0.25% of the total flour weight this can help reduce some of the elasticity in your dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2013, 08:51:03 AM »
Chuck,

The dough formulation you used (as discussed at Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5442.html#msg5442) should have allowed you to use the two flours that you mentioned. Maybe this point was raised with you before, but I assume that the dough ball was not re-balled, re-kneaded or otherwise reworked before using it to make the pizza. I also assume that you did not use the dough while cold and that you allowed the dough ball to temper at room temperature for about 1 1/2-2 hours before using. If following these practices did not resolve the elasticity problem, you might extend the fermentation period for another day.

It is indeed correct, as Tom noted, that a longer fermentation will make the dough less elastic and more extensible. Elasticity and extensibility have to do with the type of flour used (more specifically, the protein content and the gluten forming characteristics of the flour), the nature and degree of kneading, the hydration of the dough, the use or non-use of other wetting ingredients such as oil, the nature and degree of fermentation, and biochemical activity in the dough during fermentation (such as the action of enzymes and acids formed in the dough) and the effects of that activity on the gluten matrix.

Peter

Offline bbqchuck

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2013, 09:40:34 AM »
Tom, Peter,
Thanks.  I'm sorry, I should have posted the full recipe instead of the link. 
 Flour (high-gluten, Giusto), 9.35 oz. (about 2 3/8 c.)
    Water (62% hydration), 5.8 oz. (about 3/4 c.)
    Salt, 0. 80 t., or a little bit over 3/4 t.
    Oil, 0.57 t., or about 1/2 to 5/8 t.
    Yeast (0.25% IDY), 0.22 t., or slightly less than 1/4 t.

Fermented at 57F for 24hrs

I'm trying to learn fundamentals.  The information that more fermentation reduces elastic behavior is extremely helpful. 

If the dough were under worked (rough and stringey) would that contribute to elastic behavior as well?  I watched a video clip of a chef working the dough on a countertop and the dough started rough and stringey, then after a number of stretch and folds with rests it became creamy.   I think I've been so worried about over working the dough that I've been under working it.

Thanks
Chuck
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 09:42:27 AM by bbqchuck »

Online DenaliPete

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2013, 12:19:26 PM »
bbqchuck, what type of mixer are you using to make your dough?  When I had a kitchen aid I found that it was pretty difficult to overwork the dough.

I have accidentally overworked it on my Electrolux, but the kitchen aid was pretty forgiving in that respect.  Although the mixer I was using had a C-arm, and not the spiral arm.  That may perhaps develop the dough quicker.

Pete

Offline bbqchuck

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2013, 12:49:24 PM »
Pete,
I'm using a Kitchen Aid with a J hook, not the spiral pigs tail hook. After watching more videos, I'm convinced I wasn't working the dough enough to get that creamy texture.  But I don't know if that makes it more or less elastic.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2013, 01:39:21 PM »
Chuck,

In my experience I can't really say that an underkneaded dough, even a severely underkneaded dough, will result in increased elasticity for a moderately cold fermented dough, say, a one-day dough. What I have found more likely is a dough that is prone to ripping when trying to open up the dough ball because of inadequate gluten development. And it might also have an irregular texture and feel to it.

We have some members who intentionally knead the dough as little as possible. But usually such doughs undergo a fairly long period of fermentation, say, a few days or more, and they rely a lot on biochemical gluten development--or BGD as Tom Lehmann likes to call it--to complete the gluten development. For short fermentation doughs, including emergency doughs, the dough is usually kneaded more than just the minimum.

BTW, when I use the terms elasticity and extensibility, I ascribe the defintions to those terms as given in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html. Often, people will talk about one but not the other. But, with the Lehmann type of dough, ideally you want both, but to be in balance. It makes for much better handling.

Peter


Offline JD

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2013, 04:21:15 PM »
Pete,
I'm using a Kitchen Aid with a J hook, not the spiral pigs tail hook. After watching more videos, I'm convinced I wasn't working the dough enough to get that creamy texture.  But I don't know if that makes it more or less elastic.


Chuck,

If you're interested I figured out a reliable mixing method using a kitchen aid with a C hook after watching an episode of Lidia's Italy. It's not good for large batches (say over 800g total), but I've been really happy with the results for smaller batches.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24265.msg262525.html#msg262525

I generally do a 2-3 day cold ferment and don't want to mix it much more than I show in the pictures or it will be over worked.
Josh

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2013, 04:38:50 PM »
Josh,

When you have a chance, would you mind posting the dough formulation you used and referenced in your last post? Also, have you explored the range of hydration values that are amenable to the knead protocol you described, with or without added oil?

Peter

Offline JD

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 04:48:44 PM »
Josh,

When you have a chance, would you mind posting the dough formulation you used and referenced in your last post? Also, have you explored the range of hydration values that are amenable to the knead protocol you described, with or without added oil?

Peter


From the best of my memory:

100% Flour
63% Water
1.5% oil
0.09% IDY
No Sugar - Although Sunday I added 1% sugar with no significant difference noticed


I've been pretty consistent with oil, but I've gone as low as 58% and up to 65% hydration. The KA starts to struggle at 58% hydration, but the higher hydration seems just fine. A slightly longer second high-speed knead may be necessary with the higher hydration dough. It's very easy to tell if the kneading is complete after the 10 minute rests.



Josh

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2013, 05:08:42 PM »
Josh,

Thank you.

As an owner of a KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook, I am always open to new approaches that will make better use of my mixer. Recently, I have been running a series of dough tests with hydration values of 55-59%, with 1-2% oil, and I was not able to incorporate all of the flour at those values. That necessitated stopping the mixer and using hand kneading to bring everything together, along with using a rest period. That is why I asked you about the hydration range and oil usage. However, none of this should deter Chuck from trying the method you described. The dough recipe he has been using should work with that method.

Peter


Offline JD

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2013, 05:29:11 PM »
Josh,

Thank you.

As an owner of a KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook, I am always open to new approaches that will make better use of my mixer. Recently, I have been running a series of dough tests with hydration values of 55-59%, with 1-2% oil, and I was not able to incorporate all of the flour at those values. That necessitated stopping the mixer and using hand kneading to bring everything together, along with using a rest period. That is why I asked you about the hydration range and oil usage. However, none of this should deter Chuck from trying the method you described. The dough recipe he has been using should work with that method.

Peter

Peter,

I would never be able to incorporate all the flour at a low speed with just the C hook, I use a rubber spatula to push the flour down where the hook is while it is running very slowly.

After it is mostly incorporated, I will then increase the speed to 6 and the dough will be violently thrown around the bowl to pick up the rest of the flour. I'm not sure I can recommend this method at 55%, but if you're up for experimentation I think it will work fine at 59% as long as you use a spatula to get you started.

Oh and in case anyone is interested, I have not experienced any significant increase in dough temperature from this method. I believe it is mostly due to the short mix time.
Josh

Offline bbqchuck

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2013, 06:02:07 PM »
In later batches, I've experimented with bumping the KA mixer up to middle speeds.  Vibrations get pretty heavy, I don't want my wife to see me doing it with her mixer that I bought her 15-20 yrs ago.  :-\  Then I've started hand extending and folding.  I just haven't quite gotten to smooth texture yet. 

Josh, I'll check out the clip. 

Peter,
I just ordered a spiral dough hook for my mixer.  It's a bit of a crapshoot on whether it's the correct hook for a K5SS model, but another reviewer said it's the right size for a K5SS.   http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0010EF0SC/?tag=pizzamaking-20
Item model number: KNS256BDH

Apparently, the K5SS 5 qt lift bowl design was rolled into their Pro line under a different model number for a while, and apparently superseded later by a 6 qt lift bowl.  The above hook is listed as compatible with the 5 qt models "For use with the following models ONLY: KV25G0X, KV25G8X, KV25H0X, KP26M1X, KP26M8X, KL26M8X, and KB26G1X"

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2013, 06:07:46 PM »
I'll be very interested to hear if the spiral works on a K5SS as I've been told it wont. Please post your experience when you get it.

With the C-hook on my K5SS, I've been able to make 60%HR dough with up to 1.7kg flour (just shy of 2.8kg dough total) without stopping the mixer. If you do it just right, you get two big legs wondering around a center mass. As the legs climb, the fall over and are incorporated into the center mass and it starts over again. It actually does an OK job mixing.  With that much dough, all the speeds from 2 and up are the same.
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Offline bbqchuck

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 12:02:40 AM »
I did order a bare uncoated hook in case a little tweaking will make it work.  It appears to be cast aluminum so it should be malleable to a limited degree. 

Offline D C

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2013, 08:23:50 PM »
I hope it's ok to post my woes on the same topic here.

I've been making both a Neopolitan and a New York dough with similar techniques and the same method.  The pizza is delicious! (for a 550 bake) but the stretching is a pain.

Here's what I do for New York:
Flour: Gordon Foods Primo Gusto "Crust & Bread Flour" Bleached, Enriched, & Bromated. 4g protein/30g

Salt: 1.7%
IDY: 0.5%
Olive Oil: 1.0%
Sugar: 1.0%
Hydration: 65.3%

Weigh & mix ingredients to wet most of the flour.
Mix in my 6qt Kitchenaid Lift-Bowl Mixer with a spiral dough hook.  Final dough temp is right around 80F
Initial mix: 2 minutes at low speed
knead: 6-1/2 minutes at #3 speed
Bulk Ferment: 24 hours @ 60-63F (constant temp in a room in my basement)

Split & Ball ~2 hours before making
550 bake on a stone for ~7 min.  Working on the best additional browning under the broiler still (electric oven)

What I find works best is stretch it one bit, set it aside, stretch a different ball, set it aside & go back to the first one. 
There's no problem getting a wafer thin, window-pane stretch in the end, it just takes some time.  I'm around 0.9 on the thickness factor.

When I'm done with the kneading, I can get a bit of a window-pane, but just barely.  I'm afraid to knead it for too long, so I call it quits after about 6-1/2 to 7 minutes.

(My Neopolitan recipe is 2% salt, 1.5% IDY, and 65% hydration, but otherwise it goes the same)



----------------------------
Chuck,
Do NOT put that uncoated dough hook in your dishwasher.  It will eventually destroy the coating and you'll end up with aluminum rubbing off on everything.  Ask how I know!  I ended up ordering a coated one (but still hand-wash it).





Dave
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 08:38:04 PM by D C »

Offline chasenpse

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2013, 09:32:19 PM »
D C, what type of flour are you using for your neapolitan? Also, 550F is fine for NY but definitely not hot enough for Neapolitan, your pie will dry out and take too long to take on any color.

Your flour is 13.3% protein which should be able go make a good NY pie, it sounds like your dough lacks gluten development though. Have you tried experimenting with your IDY % and ferment time?
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