Author Topic: Overly elastic dough  (Read 2376 times)

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scott123

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2013, 09:35:18 PM »
Split & Ball ~2 hours before making

There's your problem.  You want a minimum of 6 hours between balling and stretching to let the dough relax, with 12-24 hours being a much more comfortable time frame. If you're only fermenting for 26 hours total, lose the bulk and ball right after kneading.

Also, for an 80 deg. dough with an overnight room temp ferment, .5%  IDY sounds high. You're probably not seeing the results of overfermentation because of the long bulk, but, when you go with a 26 hour balled ferment, you will most likely see overblown dough balls.  What temperature water are you using?

Lastly, for an overnight fermentation, you don't want to be anywhere near window pane. If you are, dial back the kneading.


Offline chasenpse

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2013, 10:02:12 PM »
Lastly, for an overnight fermentation, you don't want to be anywhere near window pane. If you are, dial back the kneading.

Is it because the long fermentation would develop the gluten that would be otherwise achieved by kneading?
If Tetris has taught me anything, itís that errors pile up and accomplishments disappear.

scott123

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2013, 10:20:05 PM »
Is it because the long fermentation would develop the gluten that would be otherwise achieved by kneading?

Yes  :)

Offline D C

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2013, 07:22:08 AM »
D C, what type of flour are you using for your neapolitan? Also, 550F is fine for NY but definitely not hot enough for Neapolitan, your pie will dry out and take too long to take on any color.

Your flour is 13.3% protein which should be able go make a good NY pie, it sounds like your dough lacks gluten development though. Have you tried experimenting with your IDY % and ferment time?

Same flour for the Neopolitan. 
I know the oven's not hot enough, but it's the best I can do right now.  For Neopolitan, I'm at a 3:30 bake time on a stone on the highest rack with the broiler on.  Friggin electric stove regulates the broiler coil on/off irregularly, so consistency is tough, but it's what I have to live with until I can step things up.  It's still  :drool: though!

I have done a little experimentation on the NY, but didn't know which way to go, and it's been more to give me a nice bubbly crust than elasticity.

There's your problem.  You want a minimum of 6 hours between balling and stretching to let the dough relax, with 12-24 hours being a much more comfortable time frame. If you're only fermenting for 26 hours total, lose the bulk and ball right after kneading.

Also, for an 80 deg. dough with an overnight room temp ferment, .5%  IDY sounds high. You're probably not seeing the results of overfermentation because of the long bulk, but, when you go with a 26 hour balled ferment, you will most likely see overblown dough balls.  What temperature water are you using?

Lastly, for an overnight fermentation, you don't want to be anywhere near window pane. If you are, dial back the kneading.

Thanks! I'll try balling right away to see how it goes next time.  and LESS kneading?! Oops.  I've been slowly increasing it.  What would be the signs of overfermentation to watch out for?

Good point about the fermentation and IDY %.  It was about 0.25%, but I wasn't getting quite as much bubbling in the crust as I wanted, so I turned it up a notch to see what happens. 

Water temp is right around 78-80deg. Everything else is "room" temp which is ~70.

Based on your help, I just so happen to have an experiment in progress.  I made dough on Sunday, pizza on Monday of this week.  Made a 2-pie batch of both NY and Neo, but only baked one of each.   The other balls were plopped into tupperware containers and thrown in the fridge.  So they're getting a longer cold fermentation.


Is it because the long fermentation would develop the gluten that would be otherwise achieved by kneading?

Yes  :)

So more gluten formation does NOT make for more resistance to stretch? 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 07:24:46 AM by D C »

Offline chasenpse

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2013, 08:30:56 AM »
So more gluten formation does NOT make for more resistance to stretch? 

Correct. Gluten development will help with your elasticity and create a better crumb, which should help in getting that bubbly crust. That's why whole wheat and gluten-free pizzas tend to be on the flatter side, they don't have the protein required for gluten to develop.

There's your problem.  You want a minimum of 6 hours between balling and stretching to let the dough relax, with 12-24 hours being a much more comfortable time frame.

I was going to suggest something similar but I doubted my pizza knowledge and withheld my comment :( Good to know that my mind was in the right place though!
If Tetris has taught me anything, itís that errors pile up and accomplishments disappear.

Offline bbqchuck

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2013, 01:08:06 PM »
I've settled on a workflow that seems to be just enough working of the dough for my recipe of NY KASL or Smart & Final LaRomanella High Gluten using 63% hyd. 

I use a stand mixer to incorporate the ingredients, once a ball is formed, mix with a dough hook (spiral) for 5 mins, rest 5 mins, mix another 5 mins with the stand mixer, rest 5 mins, hand stretch and fold for 5 mins, rest 5 mins, hand stretch and fold 5 mins, rest 5 mins, ball and place in a bowl to ferment.   This seems to give me enough gluten formation to have a decent ability to work the dough to a pie without undue elasticity.  If I know some of the dough will be used 2 days later instead of 1 day, I'll cut some kneading short.

Offline D C

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Re: Overly elastic dough
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2013, 07:42:59 AM »
I've settled on a workflow that seems to be just enough working of the dough for my recipe of NY KASL or Smart & Final LaRomanella High Gluten using 63% hyd. 

I use a stand mixer to incorporate the ingredients, once a ball is formed, mix with a dough hook (spiral) for 5 mins, rest 5 mins, mix another 5 mins with the stand mixer, rest 5 mins, hand stretch and fold for 5 mins, rest 5 mins, hand stretch and fold 5 mins, rest 5 mins, ball and place in a bowl to ferment.   This seems to give me enough gluten formation to have a decent ability to work the dough to a pie without undue elasticity.  If I know some of the dough will be used 2 days later instead of 1 day, I'll cut some kneading short.

That seems like a lot more than I'm doing, and it was suggested that I do less.   ???
Are you at window pane by the time you're done?