Author Topic: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????  (Read 3392 times)

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Offline fazzari

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4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« on: September 19, 2013, 02:34:16 AM »
I was wondering what would happen if I made a dough using stretch and folds, limiting the time between folds to 5 minutes.  It was about then that I realized that Peter Reinhart has a pizza making video he offers for free at Craftsy.  I posted it here once but can't seem to find it.  I found the class and had forgotten that he makes 4 different doughs ranging from 62% up to 80% hydration.  The video is made for the beginners, and he uses the folding method in 5 minute intervals....so easy, anyone can do it.

http://www.craftsy.com/class/perfect-pizza-at-home/186

My ingredients
flour    100%   all trumps
water    65%
salt         2%
oil           2%
sugar     2%
yeast      .5% idy

Put everything in mixer bowl.  Mix with paddle 1 minute.  Rest 5 minutes.  Mix with paddle (speed 2) 1 minute.  Pour dough onto oiled work surface...stretch and fold.  Wait 5 minutes...stretch and fold.  Wait 5 minutes....stretch and fold...wait 5 minutes...stretch and fold....wait 5 minutes.....scale, ball and refrigerate.  As per Peter's request, checked the dough after final fold...it was very developed, almost perfect window pane.  Is that too much...will find out.

My first question is this.....if this dough works, a person should be able to mix his dough by hook, check his dough, and check to see if it needs  a stretch and fold or 2 to get to the desired development.  I think that sounds reasonable..and I will try it.  The seems most reasonable especially for higher hydrated doughs which are simply harder to mix.

The following dough is 25 hours old.  How amazing this seems to me...to get a dough this good with so little work.   Bakes in 560 degree deck oven in 5 minutes 5 seconds.  It is a 10 ounce dough stretched to 12 inches.  It is crisp, brown, extremely tender, super oven spring as you can see....and best of all delicious!!

John
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 02:36:28 AM by fazzari »


Offline communist

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2013, 10:49:21 AM »
Nice pie John.  Is that room temperature water ( filtered? ) added at 65%  Mark

Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2013, 10:47:23 PM »
Nice pie John.  Is that room temperature water ( filtered? ) added at 65%  Mark
Cold tap..

Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2013, 02:43:45 AM »
Excellent pizza......36 hours old
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2013, 02:45:00 AM »
Another excellent pizza 96 hours old.
John

Offline bfguilford

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2013, 08:29:43 PM »
John:

Nice looking pies, as always. Which level of fermentation would you say gave you the best taste?

Barry
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2013, 09:40:26 PM »
John:

Nice looking pies, as always. Which level of fermentation would you say gave you the best taste?

Barry

Barry, of the ones I have pictures of ...96 hours best taste.   But I took the last dough ball and folded it....not only delicious, but amazing crispness, and tenderness....that one was 120 hours old.

John

Offline DustinA

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2013, 08:50:07 AM »
I went and did the Peter Reinhart class that you posted earlier.  I made a batch of his Neopolitan and Napolitana dough as described in the video and put them in the fridge on Monday and will be baking them tonight.  I'll make sure to document my results for you. 

I also did an emergency version of the Neopolitan dough the other night as well.  I doubled the yeast and used warm water instead of cold.  Absolutely delicious.  The dough really crisps up nicely and can handle a good amount of toppings without getting flimsy or soft.  Can't wait to see what a long fermentation time does for the flavor.

Offline jsaras

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2013, 11:57:18 AM »
You're not using his dough recipe. You're using the 62% hydration of the Napoletana recipe (for 00 flour) and you're using the the rest from the "American Neapolitan" recipe (which has 71% hydration) ...which basically makes a Lehmann formulation.   

At least Reinhart has finally lowered the ridiculous amount of olive oil that he published for the American (Neo) Neapolitan dough in his book.  The yeast is high for an overnight dough IMO. 

As far as the crumb, I've gotten identical looking dough using a food processor.  I think the stretch and fold business makes more sense if your hydration is in the 70%+ range.







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Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2013, 11:33:49 PM »
I've undermixed doughs, I mean way undermixed doughs....but I was wondering about under "folded" doughs.  It led me to this experiment:

The same formula as above:
Put all ingredients in bowl.  Mix one minute with paddle. Rest 5 minutes.  Mix 1 more minute with paddle.  Stretch and fold dough....rest 5 minutes.....stretch and fold dough......scale, ball, refrigerate.
My plan for this dough is to stretch and fold the dough ball (instead of a reball), and see what the results will be.

The following dough was 65 hours old when baked.  It was stretched and folded 24 hours prior to bake....by the way, no more reballing for me.....folding the dough makes more sense, since the folds are parallel to the floor, there are no longer any thin spots when stretching it out, the dough is beautiful to work with.  Another thing I noticed, steam was billowing out of the top when I pulled it from the oven...was this a fluke ....I don't know, will test another dough tomorrow.   The pizza was one of the best I've ever had in regards to tenderness.....it was still tender 90 minutes after baking....it wasn't as crisp as I like, but I am certain if I fold the next dough a little closer to bake time...I will have crisp tender dough.  An excellent pizza was had by all today.
John


Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2013, 11:47:26 PM »
So, on this dough ball, I just know I can make a crisp, beautiful crust, if I fold it closer to the time I bake it.  This dough is 108 hours old.  It was folded 5 hours prior to bake and was left out to ferment at room temperature.  It was baked in a 580 degree oven....4 minutes 32 seconds.  Simply another one of the best crusts I've ever had....crispy, tender, thin bottom..everything I could ask for!!!

John

Offline norma427

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2013, 09:19:04 AM »
Your results are interesting John.   8)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2013, 07:30:06 PM »
Your results are interesting John.   8)

Norma
Especially in regard to mixtimes ...this dough has been touched so little it's almost virgin dough!!

John

Offline norma427

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2013, 08:12:21 PM »
Especially in regard to mixtimes ...this dough has been touched so little it's almost virgin dough!!

John

John,

 :-D  Will watch for more results.  I can see doing that for less dough, but how about big batches?  I have to try your method out one of these days.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2013, 08:45:05 PM »
...since the folds are parallel to the floor, there are no longer any thin spots when stretching it out, the dough is beautiful to work with....

This really resonates with me.  I sometimes find myself with very thin centers and thicker edges when I reball, and I attribute it to the fact that I am creating a big hole in the middle of the dough ball where I am wrapping the dough ball over itself.  I do try to seal it up but unless I give it a good 24 hours it often seems thin in the middle when I open the dough ball. So maybe the S&F approach will eliminate that? 

Offline JD

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2013, 09:30:38 PM »
This really resonates with me.  I sometimes find myself with very thin centers and thicker edges when I reball, and I attribute it to the fact that I am creating a big hole in the middle of the dough ball where I am wrapping the dough ball over itself.  I do try to seal it up but unless I give it a good 24 hours it often seems thin in the middle when I open the dough ball. So maybe the S&F approach will eliminate that?

Ditto, I stopped reballing all together due to the unevenness of the final dough. I really like the idea of a S&F instead. Sometimes simple solutions to problems are not so obvious, I think this is a great example.   
Josh

Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2013, 10:53:02 PM »
Ditto, I stopped reballing all together due to the unevenness of the final dough. I really like the idea of a S&F instead. Sometimes simple solutions to problems are not so obvious, I think this is a great example.
I know!!!  I talked myself in to it when I described a reball as nothing more than a later stage stretch and fold.  To be honest, I had very few problems reballing, it was a matter of having the hydration right....but this stretch and fold is fool proof.
John

Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2013, 06:46:12 PM »
I have a question.
It is the higher hydration that cause it to be tender or is truly the lack  over mixing?
I have been doing this but slightly different for a long time.  I like high hydration pizzas in the 70 to 80% range. It is the most practical way to mix.
I have seen and tried what peter advocated but I find that using the paddle attachment does not work well. the problem is as soon as the dough comes together then it rides on the paddle and mixes very little more. Than you have a mess to get off the paddle.

I have a heave duty spatula. I mix for a minute to bring dough together. let sit over the next few hours fold in with the spatula 3 to 5 times very clean and neat. I leave the spatula in a glass of water or in a little oil between folds. I leave out on the counter until it is very active. then in the cooler overnight.
I alway though the dough was so tender because of high hydration not because of the mixing technique?

Offline smignogna

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2013, 07:03:49 PM »
The stretch and fold method is probably the best method for creating artisan hearth baked breads. This method was popularized most recently by Chad Robertson at Tartine and I've used it successfully for bread and pizza. However, I don't agree with Reinhardt's method completely. The autolyse is way too short and you should be waiting around 20-40 minutes between folds. I typically fold every 30 min and autolyse for 30-60 min depending on what flour I'm using.

Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2013, 10:00:56 PM »
I have a question.
It is the higher hydration that cause it to be tender or is truly the lack  over mixing?
I have been doing this but slightly different for a long time.  I like high hydration pizzas in the 70 to 80% range. It is the most practical way to mix.
I have seen and tried what peter advocated but I find that using the paddle attachment does not work well. the problem is as soon as the dough comes together then it rides on the paddle and mixes very little more. Than you have a mess to get off the paddle.

I have a heave duty spatula. I mix for a minute to bring dough together. let sit over the next few hours fold in with the spatula 3 to 5 times very clean and neat. I leave the spatula in a glass of water or in a little oil between folds. I leave out on the counter until it is very active. then in the cooler overnight.
I alway though the dough was so tender because of high hydration not because of the mixing technique?
Sonny
You can make tender dough with extremely low hydrations also if you know what you are doing, even as low as 34%.  There are a myriad of  different variables that affect dough.  But, if you like the super high hydrations, I think the stretch and fold is the way to go.  You might try laying your dough on a lightly oiled work surface, and with oiled or wet hands folding your dough....it might be easier than a spatula.
John


 

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