Author Topic: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????  (Read 3821 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2013, 10:03:55 PM »
The stretch and fold method is probably the best method for creating artisan hearth baked breads. This method was popularized most recently by Chad Robertson at Tartine and I've used it successfully for bread and pizza. However, I don't agree with Reinhardt's method completely. The autolyse is way too short and you should be waiting around 20-40 minutes between folds. I typically fold every 30 min and autolyse for 30-60 min depending on what flour I'm using.
I'm kind of new to this method...haven't made much bread except for super hydrated focaccia, and that worked splendidly.  As for pizza, I've been trying it a bunch this past month, and I've found 2 folds in 5 minutes works just fine.  I'm kind of a simple guy, so I'll go with the shorter method.
John


Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2013, 10:32:31 PM »
John
I have tied what you suggest. It works well. but it is less work and less mess just to go around the outside of the dough and using the stiff spatula shown in the photo to turn the dough onto it is self. it truly is stretch and fold.
I have used a long time. I just did not realized that it worked at hydrations below 65%
Sonny

Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2013, 11:56:30 PM »
John
I have tied what you suggest. It works well. but it is less work and less mess just to go around the outside of the dough and using the stiff spatula shown in the photo to turn the dough onto it is self. it truly is stretch and fold.
I have used a long time. I just did not realized that it worked at hydrations below 65%
Sonny
With my very limited amount of experimenting, I found that the real benefits were at hydrations above 62% or so.  Anything lower and it was a tossup with standard mixing in a mixer.
John

Offline jsaras

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2013, 07:34:29 PM »
I made my first (emergency) Neapolitan pizza using three stretch-and-folds (5 minutes between).  2- hour room temp ferment.  The formulation was:

Antimo Caputo 00 Flour - 100%
Water - 62%
IDY- 0.78% (yeah , I know...so shoot me)
Salt - 2%

Baked @900 for 90 seconds in my Blackstone. I'll leave it to you to decide how successful it was.  I enjoyed it more than I thought I would.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 07:36:03 PM by jsaras »
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Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2013, 04:48:15 PM »
I made my first (emergency) Neapolitan pizza using three stretch-and-folds (5 minutes between).  2- hour room temp ferment.  The formulation was:

Antimo Caputo 00 Flour - 100%
Water - 62%
IDY- 0.78% (yeah , I know...so shoot me)
Salt - 2%

Baked @900 for 90 seconds in my Blackstone. I'll leave it to you to decide how successful it was.  I enjoyed it more than I thought I would.

I'd love to know why you thought you wouldn't enjoy it much.  And I'd also like to know if there were any surprises along the way, and I'd like to know how simple you thought the process was.  Thank you

John

Offline jsaras

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2013, 03:59:54 PM »
I didn't think that I'd like a Neapolitan pizza, stretch-and-folds notwithstanding.  FWIW, I also used a food processor for about 30 seconds to bring the ingredients together before I did the stretch and folds.

I've made several of Reinhart's doughs in the past using that technique and it didn't move the earth for me.   It's not difficult to do, though it feels like I'm making a croissant instead of a dough ball.
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline bakerbill

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2013, 09:15:40 PM »
fazzari,

I am trying to put all your descriptions together in some meaningful way. Starting with your original description, what do you recommend in terms of folds, timing of folds and fermentation times? Where does refrigeration fit into the process?

bakerbill

Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2013, 10:48:20 PM »
fazzari,

I am trying to put all your descriptions together in some meaningful way. Starting with your original description, what do you recommend in terms of folds, timing of folds and fermentation times? Where does refrigeration fit into the process?

bakerbill

These are simply experiments to learn more....but the latest stuff I've done can be found here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,27855.0.html

I am trying the method with various recipes....but the method is the same

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2013, 11:55:21 PM »
I continue to experiment with stretch and folds to see the different results that are possible.  So, I've evolved to the point, where instead of 4 stretch and folds...I've gone to 5.  The first is done right after the second 60 second mix in my mixer, and the following 4 occur in 5 minute increments after that.  What I am finding is that not only do the dough balls stay extremely strong as they age (I never manipulate them again after scaling and balling), but they brown so nicely.  Although most of my doughs were baked in my decks at work, the one below was baked in my oven at home.  This dough is 96 hours old and baked in my home oven in 4 minutes 10 seconds.  It is true I can get my quarry tiles up to 620, but everything is relative....this pizza baked up nicely with great color and flavor.  I am wondering how much the mixing method contributes to such a lovely bake.  By the way, the quarry tiles are on the very top rack and the broiler is not used.
John

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2013, 12:17:51 AM »
Your excellent pizzas are so recognizable as being a "fazzari" pie....I enjoy all your work, John, and appreciate the continuing experimentation within this framework that you contribute ongoing to the forum.  :chef:
Are you famous yet dude?  ;D
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2013, 09:51:07 PM »
Your excellent pizzas are so recognizable as being a "fazzari" pie....I enjoy all your work, John, and appreciate the continuing experimentation within this framework that you contribute ongoing to the forum.  :chef:
Are you famous yet dude?  ;D

You are kind Bob!!  I 'am' famous with the people I work with....they seem to love eating my experiments...but then again, I sign their paychecks.
John

Offline boalpd

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2013, 09:48:30 AM »
John,

      I'm a newbie and have probably 12 Lehman recipe pies under my belt. Yesterday I did your 5 S&F technique and formula and it is our favorite crust to date. It was nice and light, not doughy, crisp bottom, nice cornice, nice browning. I only did 48 hrs cold ferment and will try 96 hrs next time as you advise.
      When I mixed I was concerned how dry the dough appeared and how much resistance the dough gave me during the S&F. However, I was surprised when I opened the skins. I wasn't ready for how wet the dough was....it just fell away from me as I was opening it on my hands. My previous hydrations were 63% vs this 65%. Big difference. Maybe I wasn't kneading enough on my KA c hook.
    As a newbie with a KA C hook mixer this technique makes it easy for me to get the correct kneading. I'm sticking with this method.

Phil

Offline fazzari

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2013, 10:12:23 PM »
Glad it worked out Phil.  I think I've figured out that the magic number is 5 stretch and folds....since that part is figured out, this is the only way I will mix dough until I learn something better...it's just to easy and too good!  Keep experimenting

John

Offline boalpd

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2014, 06:29:03 PM »
John,

    I'm in my RV without a mixer and hand mixed and kneaded for my 1st time ever and combined that with 5 stretch and folds. I love this dough....light, airy, and flavorful. Thanks again for getting me there.

Phil

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2014, 06:37:30 PM »
 ^^^   Stretch and folds are the new KA mixer.  8)

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline pythonic

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2014, 10:19:06 PM »
Glad it worked out Phil.  I think I've figured out that the magic number is 5 stretch and folds....since that part is figured out, this is the only way I will mix dough until I learn something better...it's just to easy and too good!  Keep experimenting

John

John,

Have a vid for me to see to do the stretch and folds?

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: 4 folds and 20 minutes to great pizza????
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2014, 10:31:16 PM »
I believe Reinhardt has vids showing the lateral s&f technique that John uses.

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


 

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