Author Topic: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago  (Read 3512 times)

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Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« on: September 24, 2013, 09:33:33 PM »
Steve brought a NY style dough ball to market he had made last week.  The dough ball had lots of spots on top of the dough ball.  He left the dough ball out at room temperature for many hours before he used it to make a pizza.  The pizza with the spotty dough ball turned into a very good tasting pizza and especially had a good tasting crust. The rim crust and bottom crust did brown well, even though there was no sugar added in the dough.  When Steve opened the dough ball spots could be seen in the dough skin. 

Steve just scooped the dough ball out of one on his dough boxes before he came to market today and placed the dough ball in a plastic container.  The dough ball was not floured or oiled when it was put in the dough box. 

This is the formulation Steve used with the Occident flour.  The dough ball was for Green Dragon, but it was leftover. 

Hydration 58%
Cake yeast 1.1%
Salt 1.75%

I would have thought there might not be any rim crust browning because no sugar was added to feed the yeast over that long period of time, but that was not the case.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 09:37:10 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2013, 09:35:51 PM »
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2013, 09:50:28 PM »
Norma,

If you scan through the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html, you will see several examples of doughs made without any sugar that cold fermented for very long periods of time yet exhibited good coloration in the finished crust. Some of the doughs had the spotting that you mentioned. See, for example, the spotting of the dough shown at Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081. That dough contained no sugar and cold fermented for over 12 days, yet the finished crust had good coloration. I never did quite understand how that happened but keeping the dough as cold as possible throughout its entire life up to the point of using to make a pizza seemed to be an important factor.

Peter

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2013, 10:31:11 PM »
Norma,

If you scan through the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html, you will see several examples of doughs made without any sugar that cold fermented for very long periods of time yet exhibited good coloration in the finished crust. Some of the doughs had the spotting that you mentioned. See, for example, the spotting of the dough shown at Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081. That dough contained no sugar and cold fermented for over 12 days, yet the finished crust had good coloration. I never did quite understand how that happened but keeping the dough as cold as possible throughout its entire life up to the point of using to make a pizza seemed to be an important factor.

Peter


Peter,

Your spotty dough ball that was 12 days plus 4 hours old also produced a great looking pizza at Reply 29 in your thread of the New Kitchen Aid Dough Making method. 

When I watched Steve open up that spotty dough ball into a skin it had the right amount of elasticity and extensibility.  I was somewhat surprised by that too.  Maybe Steve will comment on what methods he used to make his dough.  I don't think he used any usual methods though. 

I don't know why I thought sugar would be needed to be added for a longer ferment time.  I see though your doughs made without sugar did cold ferment for very long periods of time, but did still have good coloration in the finished crusts.  I guess I never will understand everything about pizza doughs.

Norma 
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2013, 10:48:12 PM »
Norma,

Note the crust coloration for the pizza made with a dough that was fermented for 15 days without added sugar:

Reply 57 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40092.html#msg40092

That dough also exhibited spotting.

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2013, 11:18:59 PM »
Norma,

Note the crust coloration for the pizza made with a dough that was fermented for 15 days without added sugar:

Reply 57 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40092.html#msg40092

That dough also exhibited spotting.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for referencing Reply 57 in your thread.  I did not know that November advocates the addition of oil to the water, flour and other ingredients. 

I see you did have enough residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking to have great crust coloration.  I think Steve and I noticed a a little sweetness in his crust today too.  What is that sweetness from? 

I might have to go back to square one and try longer fermented dough balls for market for better crust flavor, but I really don't know where to begin.

Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2013, 08:09:27 AM »
I see you did have enough residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking to have great crust coloration.  I think Steve and I noticed a a little sweetness in his crust today too.  What is that sweetness from? 

Norma,

There are a lot of mysteries and unknowns when it comes to pizza making. For example, there are hundreds of flavor compounds produced by the Maillard reactions, and those compounds break down into more flavor compounds, and so on, Of course, the Maillard reactions depend on the existence of reducing sugars in the dough to provide both crust coloration and flavors.

I specifically asked member November at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33945.html#msg33945 if he could explain why my dough had high levels of residual sugars and why there was detectable sweetness in the finished crust. You can read his answer at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33947.html#msg33947. I later found that as the fermentation time increased, the sweetness of the crust declined. I reported on this phenomenon at Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42556.html#msg42556. The crust made from the dough described in that post did not have the sweetness that the other crusts had that were based on shorter fermentation times. But there was still decent crust coloration given the duration of fermentation.

I think it might be difficult to make very long fermented doughs in a commercial setting because there are so many variables that have to be controlled, especially for large dough batch sizes. Also, making a lot more dough balls requires more cooler capacity and more work for the cooler to keep all of the dough balls cool. And if there is a cooler failure, the losses are far greater than when storing smaller numbers of dough balls.

You are also correct that November was an advocate of adding the oil to the water. He felt that the dispersion of the oil in the dough was as important as when the oil was added. In general, anything you add to the water, whether it is salt, sugar or yeast, is bound to be more uniformly dispersed throughout the dough because of the water mobility. However, as you know, this is not usually done when using commercial mixers.

Peter

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2013, 10:12:08 AM »
I'd just like to add one correction to the formula that Norma posted. The amount of yeast was .11% not 1.1

One other observation that I made concerning the spots is that they don't seem to occur in long fermented sourdough using natural starter.(Ischia and Caputo 00 flour)

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2013, 10:29:07 AM »
Norma,

There are a lot of mysteries and unknowns when it comes to pizza making. For example, there are hundreds of flavor compounds produced by the Maillard reactions, and those compounds break down into more flavor compounds, and so on, Of course, the Maillard reactions depend on the existence of reducing sugars in the dough to provide both crust coloration and flavors.

I specifically asked member November at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33945.html#msg33945 if he could explain why my dough had high levels of residual sugars and why there was detectable sweetness in the finished crust. You can read his answer at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33947.html#msg33947. I later found that as the fermentation time increased, the sweetness of the crust declined. I reported on this phenomenon at Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42556.html#msg42556. The crust made from the dough described in that post did not have the sweetness that the other crusts had that were based on shorter fermentation times. But there was still decent crust coloration given the duration of fermentation.

I think it might be difficult to make very long fermented doughs in a commercial setting because there are so many variables that have to be controlled, especially for large dough batch sizes. Also, making a lot more dough balls requires more cooler capacity and more work for the cooler to keep all of the dough balls cool. And if there is a cooler failure, the losses are far greater than when storing smaller numbers of dough balls.

You are also correct that November was an advocate of adding the oil to the water. He felt that the dispersion of the oil in the dough was as important as when the oil was added. In general, anything you add to the water, whether it is salt, sugar or yeast, is bound to be more uniformly dispersed throughout the dough because of the water mobility. However, as you know, this is not usually done when using commercial mixers.

Peter


Peter,

The more I see written here on the forum by other members and from the experiments I have done, I know there are a lot of mysteries and unknowns when it come to pizza making.  Just Steve's experiment with his spotted dough yesterday, me using the hens egg test and then my Detroit style edge crust getting darker, has me scratching my head and wondering what it up when all those differences.  Each time a new experiment is done it only leaves me with more questions of why something happened.  I know I will never find all the answers, but pizza making sure must be one of the most complicated things to understand.   

I did not know there are hundreds of flavor compounds produced by the Maillard reactions.  That sure is a lot. 

November's explanations in Reply 14 were good.  I did not know that with a higher level of hydration yeast have less atmospheric oxygen available for cellular respiration, or that when the yeast gets the oxygen from the atmosphere, or when the yeast gets it from carbohydrates there is a difference.   

Did November ever post again about his preferment members would enjoy that would keep the nutrient level high for the Yeastie Boys like he posted at Reply 12 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33942.html#msg33942

Thanks for referencing your post at Rely 117 about the phenomenon of the sweetness in the crust going down with longer fermentation times.  You did a lot of good experiments on that thread.  I never got to read them all.

I know trying anything with bigger dough ball batches in a commercial setting is harder because of all the variables.  I think sometime I am going to try another experiment with the preferment Lehmann dough.  It has been a long while since I tried that dough.  I know I liked it a lot when I used it at market.  The only problem I had with that dough formulation was knowing how much preferment to make on a Friday to be able to incorporated into the final dough batches on a Monday.  Really in the end though I don't think my customers noticed the better flavor in the crust. 

I didn't think about in general anything you add to water is bound to be more uniformly dispersed throughout the dough because of the water mobility.  I know that is not usually done when using commercial mixers though.

Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2013, 10:30:27 AM »
I'd just like to add one correction to the formula that Norma posted. The amount of yeast was .11% not 1.1


Steve,

Sorry I wrote the wrong amount of cake yeast that was used.

Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2013, 12:50:47 PM »
Did November ever post again about his preferment members would enjoy that would keep the nutrient level high for the Yeastie Boys like he posted at Reply 12 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33942.html#msg33942

Norma,
 
I did a search of November's posts but I did not find a thread along the lines he mentioned although he did use a preferment in connection with the Ultragrain flour. November was very fond of finding and using nutrient-rich ingredients that make yeast perform better. The malted brown rice syrup, turbinado, maple syrup, and raw sugar were some of those ingredients but he also used nutrient-rich sea salts.

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2013, 01:30:10 PM »
Norma,
 
I did a search of November's posts but I did not find a thread along the lines he mentioned although he did use a preferment in connection with the Ultragrain flour. November was very fond of finding and using nutrient-rich ingredients that make yeast perform better. The malted brown rice syrup, turbinado, maple syrup, and raw sugar were some of those ingredients but he also used nutrient-rich sea salts.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for doing a search of November's posts to see if posted where he used a preferment in connection with the Ultragrain flour.  I didn't know November was very fond of finding and using nutrient-rich ingredients that make yeast perform better.  I don't recall that November used nutrient-rich sea salt either. 

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2013, 01:57:57 PM »
I didn't know November was very fond of finding and using nutrient-rich ingredients that make yeast perform better.  I don't recall that November used nutrient-rich sea salt either. 

Norma,

This is an example of what I was referring to:

Reply 19 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg37982/topicseen.html#msg37982

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2013, 05:19:50 PM »
Norma:  That pizza looks good!  I have found that long fermentions that started with cold water make for a more spotty dough.   Last Friday we made 20 dough balls with room temp water and they sat over the weekend and until Tuesday.   They had no spots at all.  I use no sugar/oil in my dough and it has sat for over a week and still made great pies.   The 2 day minimum is my goal.   I had some Denison University student volunteers in my room today to help out.   A few were from the NYC area and went on and on about how bad the pizza is in central OH.   We made them some pizzas and a couple loaves of potato/fresh rosemary/roasted garlic bread for them as a thank you.  The went nuts over both and said they are spreading the word on campus armed with a few dozen of our menus.  Those balls had a 3 day room temp water fermentattion on them with no spotting.   Walter
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 06:07:56 PM by waltertore »

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2013, 06:38:24 PM »
Norma,

This is an example of what I was referring to:

Reply 19 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg37982/topicseen.html#msg37982

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for referencing November's link. 

Maybe November's way to get more more flavor in a pizza crust instead of using preferments was what he posted at Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg39720.html#msg39720 (in his last paragraph of that post).  I never heard of Better Than Cream Cheese, by Tofutti.  It looks like November used that in combination with olive oil, or rice bran oil.

I might try November's Golden Chalice dough at some point in time if I find malted brown rice syrup powder.

Norma

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2013, 06:47:07 PM »
I have found that long fermentions that started with cold water make for a more spotty dough.   Last Friday we made 20 dough balls with room temp water and they sat over the weekend and until Tuesday.   They had no spots at all.  I use no sugar/oil in my dough and it has sat for over a week and still made great pies.   The 2 day minimum is my goal.   I had some Denison University student volunteers in my room today to help out.   A few were from the NYC area and went on and on about how bad the pizza is in central OH.   We made them some pizzas and a couple loaves of potato/fresh rosemary/roasted garlic bread for them as a thank you.  The went nuts over both and said they are spreading the word on campus armed with a few dozen of our menus.  Those balls had a 3 day room temp water fermentattion on them with no spotting.   Walter

Walter,

Interesting that you have found that long fermentations that started with cold water make for a more spotty dough.  Also interesting to hear that you use no sugar/oil in your doughs and the dough sat over the weekend and still made some great pies.  I would like to make dough on a Friday and use it for Tuesday, but then I think of all the things that might happen with that dough and usually give up.

Great to hear that you had some Denison University student volunteers in your room today to help out.  That sure must have been a good feeling to hear how some of the ones from the NYC area went nuts over your loaves of bread and your pizzas.

I also had some spotty dough balls before, but then on the other hand I made one dough ball that was leavened with milk kefir and it was almost 30 days old and it never spotted.   

Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2013, 07:00:10 PM »
Norma:  You are an experimenter.  I would make a few balls as a test  on a Friday.  When I use cold water I take the balls out of the fridge at least 3 hours before using it, is good for a solid couple hours, and can push near 4 hours before it is unusable(at that point it is blowing out and way loose but still can make a good pie).  For a long ferment I prefer using cold water because it slows the yeast way down and the few hour wake up brings it up to speed for baking.  The dough is usually pretty lose but very easy to hand stretch but not real good for tossing.  the flavor is great too.  If we crack the Dension population it could be a goldmine in pizza making for us.  The challenge is no one from there comes to Newark.  Newark is a very depressed town and no one from Granville goes there very much even  though it is only 6 miles away with no traffic of any sort.  But with these volunteers starting to come in our room it may open it all up once they get familiar with our universe.  Walter
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 08:02:05 PM by waltertore »

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2013, 08:12:16 PM »
Norma:  You are an experimenter.  I would make a few balls as a test  on a Friday.  When I use cold water I take the balls out of the fridge at least 3 hours before using it, is good for a solid couple hours, and can push near 4 hours before it is unusable(at that point it is blowing out and way loose but still can make a good pie).  For a long ferment I prefer using cold water because it slows the yeast way down and the few hour wake up brings it up to speed for baking.  The dough is usually pretty lose but very easy to hand stretch but not real good for tossing.  the flavor is great too.  If we crack the Dension population it could be a goldmine in pizza making for us.  The challenge is no one from there comes to Newark.  Newark is a very depressed town and no one from Granville goes there very much even  though it is only 6 miles away with no traffic of any sort.  But with these volunteers starting to come in our room it may open it all up once they get familiar with our universe.  Walter

Walter,

Yes I am an experimenter and would like to experiment more, but I do get tired of eating pizza sometimes if you can believe that.   :-D

I might make a few dough balls on Friday to do a test with your recommendations.  Right now my refrigeration units seem to be running colder since the weather has changed in our area.  I have to also see if I can take some things out of my deli case because I don't want both of my refrigeration units on all week.  Since I really only make pizzas one day I week I try to save on electric as much as I can.

Best wishes for cracking the Dension population with your pizzas and baked goods.  8) I know your pizzas and baked goods are great.

Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2013, 08:30:02 PM »
Norma:  As much as you experiment I can see how you could get tired of eating pizza :)  I stick to my one basic dough and use it for both thin crust and deep dish and force myself to only eat 2 slices a day for lunch.  Left to my stomach alone, I would eat at least 1/2 a pie a day and be a big fat boy real quick.  I tweak it some with temp, hydration, yeast, but nothing like the different styles of dough you do.  The cold water doesn't let the dough balls rise much and even when I take them out they never puff up like a room temp multi day ferment but the finished pies look and taste great.  Make a dough ball at home on Friday, refrigerate it, and bring it to work with you on your market day.  It will need to warm up anyway right?  I am limited on refrigerator space.  We have a true single door that I use for our dough boxes.  I can put comfortably put 10 in it (push it to around 15 if need be) as well as our blocks of Parmigano Regiano and Romano cheeses.  Our other true fridge, which is a 2 door is not wide enough for a dough box to go straight in.  I have to tilt them and such to get them in and it is too much of a hassle to deal with.  Plus that fridge is full of eggs, butter, loaf mozz/provolone, sticks of pepperoni, and lots of other small stuff we use in the bakery.   Today I was taking a pizza out of the deck oven that was on the edge of burning ( I forgot it was in there), pulling bagels out of the double convection ovens, checking breads in the lower deck oven, adding bagels to boiling water on the stove, and putting together chocolate chip cookies and brownies for the ovens.  Students were also helping with this stuff but 3 of my most skilled students were out today and I had to be in 10 places at once.  I flashed- man what would it be like to just make pizzas someday?  It sounded pretty darn good today!  We are right on the verge of moving to the next level with our pizza numbers.   We have been doing 30 on a slow week and 100 on a busy week.   Various agencies are starting to put in good number orders for seminar lunches and such.  This is going to bump us to closer to 50-60 on a slow week.   I know that isn't a lot of pizzas but combined with all our baked goods is a good chunk of product for us.  My goal is to be able to sell a solid 100 pies a week.   I could reach that number today selling pies to our school cafeteria but they have to meet federal wellness laws which means 100% whole wheat crusts, low fat cheese, and low fat pepperoni.  We could bake them and immediately deliver to the cafeteria serving area which is only 50 feet from our door but I have no interest in making pizzas like that.  Currently the cafeteria is buying 20 pies a day from donatos.  I will hold out until our pies reach those numbers.  I know you are also trying to find your optimium output as well.  Walter
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 08:53:29 PM by waltertore »

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2013, 09:19:57 PM »
Norma:  As much as you experiment I can see how you could get tired of eating pizza :)  I stick to my one basic dough and use it for both thin crust and deep dish and force myself to only eat 2 slices a day for lunch.  Left to my stomach alone, I would eat at least 1/2 a pie a day and be a big fat boy real quick.  I tweak it some with temp, hydration, yeast, but nothing like the different styles of dough you do.  The cold water doesn't let the dough balls rise much and even when I take them out they never puff up like a room temp multi day ferment but the finished pies look and taste great.  Make a dough ball at home on Friday, refrigerate it, and bring it to work with you on your market day.  It will need to warm up anyway right?  I am limited on refrigerator space.  We have a true single door that I use for our dough boxes.  I can put comfortably put 10 in it (push it to around 15 if need be) as well as our blocks of Parmigano Regiano and Romano cheeses.  Our other true fridge, which is a 2 door is not wide enough for a dough box to go straight in.  I have to tilt them and such to get them in and it is too much of a hassle to deal with.  Plus that fridge is full of eggs, butter, loaf mozz/provolone, sticks of pepperoni, and lots of other small stuff we use in the bakery.   Today I was taking a pizza out of the deck oven that was on the edge of burning ( I forgot it was in there), pulling bagels out of the double convection ovens, checking breads in the lower deck oven, adding bagels to boiling water on the stove, and putting together chocolate chip cookies and brownies for the ovens.  Students were also helping with this stuff but 3 of my most skilled students were out today and I had to be in 10 places at once.  I flashed- man what would it be like to just make pizzas someday?  It sounded pretty darn good today!  We are right on the verge of moving to the next level with our pizza numbers.   We have been doing 30 on a slow week and 100 on a busy week.   Various agencies are starting to put in good number orders for seminar lunches and such.  This is going to bump us to closer to 50-60 on a slow week.   I know that isn't a lot of pizzas but combined with all our baked goods is a good chunk of product for us.  My goal is to be able to sell a solid 100 pies a week.   I could reach that number today selling pies to our school cafeteria but they have to meet federal wellness laws which means 100% whole wheat crusts, low fat cheese, and low fat pepperoni.  We could bake them and immediately deliver to the cafeteria serving area which is only 50 feet from our door but I have no interest in making pizzas like that.  Currently the cafeteria is buying 20 pies a day from donatos.  I will hold out until our pies reach those numbers.  I know you are also trying to find your optimium output as well.  Walter

Walter,

I only reason I think I try so many experiments is to see what will work and what won't and of course I am always trying for the best kind of pizza I can create for market.  I usually always learn from experiments too, but sometimes the results are confusing.

It is good that you stick to one basic dough and use it for both thin crust and deep dish pizzas.  Lol, about you limiting yourself to two slices a day.  I do use cold water right out of my deli case in the summer when I make my doughs at market.  I can make one dough ball at home on Friday with cold water and take it to market to put in my deli case to see what happens.  Right now there are too many people in and out of my home refrigerator to get consistent results with trying to cold ferment for that number of days. 

I see that you are also limited in your refrigeration places.  I still don't know how you deal with all the different things you bake, trying to teach your students and then having to deal with school administration.  That sure has to be a lot.  I believe you are very detail oriented to be able to do what you do.  I can understand how you thought of what running your own pizzeria would be like today.  I really don't comprehend how you will do it all it your pizzas go up in volume.  You already are doing so much. 

I would like some more business sometimes, but on busy days like it has been in the last few months I don't know how such a small space that I have would be able to handle much more.  Most of my slices need to be reheated, there needs to be one person opening the dough balls which is normally me, dressing the pizza which is Steve mostly and Steve mostly putting the pizzas into the oven and him or I rotating and taking them out.  Then there is always customers to wait on, stuff to be filled up during the day, dishes to be done and change to be given to most customers.  With only enough space really for two people I don't know how I would work that out if I were a lot busier.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


 

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