Author Topic: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago  (Read 3570 times)

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Online JD

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2013, 11:38:23 AM »
I used 50/50 All trumps bromated & King Arthur All Purpose.

I mix with a KA and C hook based on an older post of mine http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24265.msg262525.html#msg262525

I add the IDY to 75% of the flour, then add this to 100% of the water at 95*

Final dough temp is 85* and it goes right into the fridge after balling.

Fridge temperature is between 38-40* but since it is an active refrigerator you never know exactly what the temps are through the entire 3 days.

You are right, it is a very low amount and I do that on purpose so I don't have to reball after 3 days. I could probably add a little more IDY if I wanted but I'd rather be under fermented and pull the dough out a few hours earlier to make up the difference.




Josh


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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2013, 11:50:14 AM »
I used 50/50 All trumps bromated & King Arthur All Purpose.

I mix with a KA and C hook based on an older post of mine http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24265.msg262525.html#msg262525

I add the IDY to 75% of the flour, then add this to 100% of the water at 95*

Final dough temp is 85* and it goes right into the fridge after balling.

Fridge temperature is between 38-40* but since it is an active refrigerator you never know exactly what the temps are through the entire 3 days.

You are right, it is a very low amount and I do that on purpose so I don't have to reball after 3 days. I could probably add a little more IDY if I wanted but I'd rather be under fermented and pull the dough out a few hours earlier to make up the difference.


Josh,

I will read over what you posted more in the next few days and also the link you posted on mixing.  I find that interesting that you had a spotty dough so fast. 

If it okay with you I might asked more questions.  I think if the weather is nice this coming Saturday I am going to Steve's home for the annual brewmaker's picnic.  I think I am going to take my BS if the weather is okay.  I might try out your dough and methods in the BS.

Norma
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Online JD

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2013, 12:24:08 PM »
I also thought it was interesting that it was spotty after 3 days. I'm happy to help because you do the same for others 10 fold. Please do not hesitate to ask questions, I'm fairly methodical about my process so I hope my information is of benefit to your experiments.

I've never noticed the spots before, and there have really only been 2 significant changes in my methods recently. One is using a mix of AP flour and high gluten flour (I used straight all trumps prior, and straight bread flour prior to that). The other is using sugar (I never used sugar until fairly recently).

I'm sure what I'm about to say will be completely disregarded, but I think I'm noticing less activity after I started adding sugar. I have not purposely paid attention to this detail though so I cannot say for certain.

Josh

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2013, 06:03:55 PM »
I also thought it was interesting that it was spotty after 3 days. I'm happy to help because you do the same for others 10 fold. Please do not hesitate to ask questions, I'm fairly methodical about my process so I hope my information is of benefit to your experiments.

I've never noticed the spots before, and there have really only been 2 significant changes in my methods recently. One is using a mix of AP flour and high gluten flour (I used straight all trumps prior, and straight bread flour prior to that). The other is using sugar (I never used sugar until fairly recently).

I'm sure what I'm about to say will be completely disregarded, but I think I'm noticing less activity after I started adding sugar. I have not purposely paid attention to this detail though so I cannot say for certain.

Josh,

I will study over your methods and post anymore questions on Wednesday unless I have time to read more until then.  I also am curious to what caused those spots in such a short amount of time.  I would not think using All Trumps and KAAP would do that, but I guess I will see.  I also would not think sugar would contribute to spotting, but I sure don't know that either.  I don't know about less activity after adding sugar either.  It is fun to experiment though and I will see if I can get the spotting too.

How many times did you get the spotting when using the same blend of flours, sugar and your method of mixing?

Norma
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Online JD

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2013, 08:15:48 AM »

How many times did you get the spotting when using the same blend of flours, sugar and your method of mixing?


I'll be honest Norma, it's quite possible that it has happened before but if it did it never caught my eye. When I saw the spots over the weekend I remembered reading this thread, which is why I posted for you.

I usually make pizza every other week, so if it happens again next week I'll let you know. I'll try and do everything exactly the same as I did last time.

Josh

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2013, 09:44:06 PM »
I'll be honest Norma, it's quite possible that it has happened before but if it did it never caught my eye. When I saw the spots over the weekend I remembered reading this thread, which is why I posted for you.

I usually make pizza every other week, so if it happens again next week I'll let you know. I'll try and do everything exactly the same as I did last time.

Josh,

Thanks for telling me it is quite possible that the spotting happened before, but if did not catch your eye.  Thanks also for telling me you would let me know when the spotting happens again with tryig do everything exactly the same things as you did the last time.

I thought I saw spots in a 2 day dough today and even Steve thought he saw them too, but they looked tiny if they really were spots.  If there were really spots I have no idea how that happened.  When I took the dough ball out to warm up they were not there.  That dough ball was for the De Lorenzo clone dough.

Steve did bring some more spotty dough balls today.

Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2013, 12:26:36 PM »
Norma,

As you might recall, I had a fair amount of experience with the spotting phenomenon in the course of the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251. In the course of that thread, I was trying to make doughs that would last for many days. I wasn't expecting to see spots in the doughs but once I started to observe them, that got my attention and I proceeded to conduct a wide variety of experiments to see if I could determine the cause or causes of the phenomenon. You can read a summary of those experiments at Reply 78 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg41385.html#msg41385. As you can see from that post, I largely blamed the flour for the spotting, specifically, the high-gluten flour that I was using. Also, I saw that the spotting tended to appear after several days of cold fermentation although in one case I saw the spots after 2-3 days.

More recently, Walter (waltertore), in a post earlier in this thread, at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,27729.msg280731/topicseen.html#msg280731, made the observation that got my attention that "long fermentations that started with cold water make for a more spotty dough". That was not something I had considered or tested before as a possible cause of spotting even though the doughs that I was making did make use of cold water. That was by design. I used the cold water to achieve low finished dough temperatures, along with the late addition of IDY, the use of metal storage containers, and short dough preparation times (usually about 10-12 minutes) with gentle kneading to keep the heat of friction down, all in order to extend the useful lives of the doughs to many days. It's possible that the spotting I observed at the time of my tests had something to do with the water temperature, not the type of flour.

As you know, spotting of the dough is harmless, whatever its causes. But, like you, I like to understand the causes, if only to tie up loose ends or to satisfy my curiosity.

Peter

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2013, 12:45:22 PM »
It's possible that the spotting I observed at the time of my tests had something to do with the water temperature, not the type of flour.

Peter,

Although I have not done any experimentation on this subject, I know for certain that I started with 95* water and ended with 85* which produced a spotty dough. The only similarity between your experiment and my process is the short dough preparation time. Start to finish usually takes around 20 minutes, with a total knead time never exceeding 2-3 minutes (but keep in mind I knead at a very fast speed on my KA at 30s intervals)

Josh

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2013, 02:09:27 PM »
Peter,

Although I have not done any experimentation on this subject, I know for certain that I started with 95* water and ended with 85* which produced a spotty dough. The only similarity between your experiment and my process is the short dough preparation time. Start to finish usually takes around 20 minutes, with a total knead time never exceeding 2-3 minutes (but keep in mind I knead at a very fast speed on my KA at 30s intervals)

how can you start with 95 degree water and end with 85 degree dough?


I will get spotting  with cold water mixing and several day fermentation.  Mixing is the same as with short fermentation dough and warmer water.  I go so far as to use ice water for more than 2 day fermentations.  We have a very cold fridge in our shop and is pretty much dedicated to dough balls.  It takes several hours for that dough to be ready for opening easily.   I don't keep temperature data but go by the feel of the dough.  I am looking at some 3 day old dough in the fridge that used cold tap water.  This time of year that is still pretty warm and there is no spotting on the dough.  We made some NY style bagels today that will ferment overnight and used ice water.  I mix my bagels for a good 10 minutes to develop a lot of glueten and a chewy texture.  The hobart heats the dough up pretty good and even with the ice water, finishes at a fairly warm temp.   They never spot and I think it is because it is only a 24 hour ferment and a couple hour room temp rise before boiling.  Walter
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 02:16:52 PM by waltertore »

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2013, 03:04:30 PM »
how can you start with 95 degree water and end with 85 degree dough?

Walter,

The answer to that question depends on the room temperature and the friction factor of Josh's mixer when he uses the method described at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24265.msg262525.html#msg262525. For example, if his flour is at a room temperature of 70 degrees F and the friction factor of Josh's mixer making the dough the way he describes in Reply 22 referenced above is 20 degrees F (a guess on my part), and he uses water at 95 degrees F, then the finished dough temperature would be 85 degrees F. It's also possible in Josh's case that his room temperature is always lower than the temperature of the dough as it is being made. With two 10-minute rest periods, the warmer dough will give up heat to its surroundings during those rest periods and end up with a lower final temperature at the time that it is refrigerated.

Since Josh lives in Mississippi, it would be interesting to know his room temperature this time of year. I suspect that he has not conducted tests to determine the friction factor of his mixer using the method described in Reply 22.

Peter


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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2013, 03:19:28 PM »
Walter,

The answer to that question depends on the room temperature and the friction factor of Josh's mixer when he uses the method described at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24265.msg262525.html#msg262525. For example, if his flour is at a room temperature of 70 degrees F and the friction factor of Josh's mixer making the dough the way he describes in Reply 22 referenced above is 20 degrees F (a guess on my part), and he uses water at 95 degrees F, then the finished dough temperature would be 85 degrees F. It's also possible in Josh's case that his room temperature is always lower than the temperature of the dough as it is being made. With two 10-minute rest periods, the warmer dough will give up heat to its surroundings during those rest periods and end up with a lower final temperature at the time that it is refrigerated.

Since Josh lives in Mississippi, it would be interesting to know his room temperature this time of year. I suspect that he has not conducted tests to determine the friction factor of his mixer using the method described in Reply 22.

Peter


Unsurprisingly, this is very accurate. My water temperature is 95* yes, but my flour/oil/salt/sugar is room temperature, which around this time is about 75*.

I happened to take a few temperature readings while doing my mixing method because I was curious if the high speed would over-heat the dough. Surprisingly at 62% hydration, I noticed little to no increase of temperature after a 30s high speed mix.

Once I mixed the flour with the water, it instantly lowered to 86*-88*, and you are correct the 10 minute rests bring the temperature down even further.
Josh

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2013, 03:40:50 PM »
 I wasn't up on all the facts.  I thought he mixed it straight through for a normal 8-10 minute period and came out with a cooler temp than starting.  I figured his other ingredients and room temp  must have been sub 0 :)  I never do rests with my pizza dough but do with my french bread dough.  Walter

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2013, 05:27:07 PM »
Norma,

As you might recall, I had a fair amount of experience with the spotting phenomenon in the course of the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251. In the course of that thread, I was trying to make doughs that would last for many days. I wasn't expecting to see spots in the doughs but once I started to observe them, that got my attention and I proceeded to conduct a wide variety of experiments to see if I could determine the cause or causes of the phenomenon. You can read a summary of those experiments at Reply 78 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg41385.html#msg41385. As you can see from that post, I largely blamed the flour for the spotting, specifically, the high-gluten flour that I was using. Also, I saw that the spotting tended to appear after several days of cold fermentation although in one case I saw the spots after 2-3 days.

More recently, Walter (waltertore), in a post earlier in this thread, at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,27729.msg280731/topicseen.html#msg280731, made the observation that got my attention that "long fermentations that started with cold water make for a more spotty dough". That was not something I had considered or tested before as a possible cause of spotting even though the doughs that I was making did make use of cold water. That was by design. I used the cold water to achieve low finished dough temperatures, along with the late addition of IDY, the use of metal storage containers, and short dough preparation times (usually about 10-12 minutes) with gentle kneading to keep the heat of friction down, all in order to extend the useful lives of the doughs to many days. It's possible that the spotting I observed at the time of my tests had something to do with the water temperature, not the type of flour.

As you know, spotting of the dough is harmless, whatever its causes. But, like you, I like to understand the causes, if only to tie up loose ends or to satisfy my curiosity.

Peter


Peter,

I do recall you had a fair amount of experience with the spotting phenomenon in the course of the thread you referenced.  I didn't recall that you saw some spots after 2-3 days.  I didn't know high gluten flours seem to be more responsible for the spotting phenomenon.  I guess I did not read your post enough the first time.   

Water's post about using really cold water (maybe with ice) is interesting in how that might cause spotty dough balls.

I always like to learn about what causes spotty doughs, although I know they are harmless.

Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2013, 07:15:32 PM »
These were two of the spotty doughs Steve brought to market yesterday.  They also were from about a week ago.  We did not have time to try out the third one and only used these two dough balls at the end of the day.  The dough balls were taken out of Steve's fridge at home in the morning and left out at fairly high temperatures at market yesterday until they were used to make pizzas.  I forgot to take a photo of how much they fermented, but the dough balls reached the plastic lids until they were used to make pizzas.  The first one was only for a 10 pizza and that rim crust and bottom crust didn't brown a lot.  The second spotty dough ball was for a 15 pizza and it did have a little rim crust browning, some bottom crust coloring and some rim rise.  I don't know why both of them did not act the same.  I think it shows though that these dough balls fermented more until the point that the final pizzas did not have the same rim crust browning and bottom crust browning as last week. 

The first pizza had some drunken dried cherries that were put in Blackberry brandy I think.  I kept eating the drunken dried cherries.  They sure were tasty.  ;D

We used a older fresh mozzarella ball for the first pizza and really it did not melt well on that pizza.

The photos of the spotty dough balls were after Steve broke some of the bubbles.  Steve is a master in opening doughs that have become so fermented.

Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2013, 07:17:46 PM »
Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2013, 09:19:53 PM »
Steve brought a dough ball over to market that he made two weeks ago.  So this dough ball also was a spotty dough ball.  The dough ball was grayer than my photos show.  I took the dough ball outside to try and get a better photo but that did not work out too well.  The dough ball was left out at room temperature until Steve made the pizza. 

What I was surprised at was the rim crust still browned well even though no sugar was added to Steve's  dough.  My photos really don't show how much the rim crust browned.  The rim even had good oven spring.  The 10 pizza tasted very good with an especially good taste in the crust.  I ate two slices and Steve also ate two slices.  The spotty dough ball opened well.

This was the same formulation Steve used in the other spotty doughs. 

I always find spotty dough balls interesting.    8)

Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2013, 09:21:38 PM »
Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2013, 10:35:07 AM »
Hi Norma,

I made my usual NY dough this weekend and noticed a spotty dough. It was not as obvious as before, but it was there.

Hopefully you can figure out the cause someday
Josh

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #58 on: October 28, 2013, 06:27:46 PM »
Hi Norma,

I made my usual NY dough this weekend and noticed a spotty dough. It was not as obvious as before, but it was there.

Hopefully you can figure out the cause someday

JD,

Thanks for telling me about your NY style spotty dough.  I have some tomato pie dough balls that had some spotting and they were on a one day cold ferment.  I know I will never figure out what exactly makes that spotting.   :-D

Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #59 on: October 28, 2013, 07:01:39 PM »
Thanks for telling me about your NY style spotty dough.  I have some tomato pie dough balls that had some spotting and they were on a one day cold ferment.  I know I will never figure out what exactly makes that spotting.   :-D
Norma and others,

The good news is that the spotting is harmless and does not affect the performance of the dough. But that doesn't mean that I will stop trying to find out what causes the spotting.

Peter


 

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