Author Topic: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago  (Read 4926 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2013, 05:00:25 PM »
Norma:  That is great you experiment so much.  I am austic like in many ways and sometimes think I am on the high end of that spectrum with the ability to function socially pretty well.

I knew it! And I guess that's one reason why I've been looking very forward to meeting you, Walter. (It'll happen soon.) My mom seems convinced that I have Asperger Syndrome, and I've even considered it myself. My conclusion is that I exhibit a lot of Asperger traits, but I'm not an Aspie. I'm just kind of eccentric perhaps.

Some people play a bunch of instruments at the same time; others walk across continents for no reason. Most other people spend their lives doing what they're told.

I'm thinking you're one of us, Norma, as is Scott. I hope someday I can hang out with all of you at the same time.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2013, 07:03:56 PM »
Ryan:  That meet up would be nice and I look forward to meeting you.  Walter

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2013, 10:42:33 PM »
Norma:  We have 2 old dogs and once they are gone we will be going back to NJ.  I spent all my summers as a kid at Ortley Beach (worst damage of the Sandy storm).  I ate lots of boardwark (seaside hts) pizza and a couple shops in Ortley Beach.  Tinos was killer pie and my favorite(not y9our average shore pie at all) but they sold the building and moved to FL.  Boardwalk pie as I remember it was a fluffier/less cooked dough, more puffy than what we typically had in Essex County, with more cheese (mozz only) and a blander sauce.  Three brothers from italy use to sell huge slices but I found it bland.  Costi's in Ortley Beach was another favorite.  Star Tavern is nothing like my pies but man do they do them right!  I guess your winters are like my summers when school closes.  I miss it.  Like you, I enjoy the interaction with customers.  Our place has no formal boundry between the cooking area and customer area so everybody is in the kitchen so to speak.  If we are busy on something people heat their own slice, cut their own, and such.   Many people give me a $20 bill and we write it on the white board and they deduct as they get stuff over the week.  It reminds me of the small Italian grocery store on our block in Bellville NJ growing up.  Jerry and Joe's it was callled.  I would go there often for my mother.  They would use the paper grocery bag to add up the bill -that was your reciept and if you didn't have the money or enough money they would write it on a paper and pin it to a wooden support post behind the counter.  They knew everyone in the neighborhood and I remember how good that felt.  In my own small way I try to carry on that tradition.  Feed the hungry with a smile and love whether they have the cash on hand or not.   they will always pay you back and then some.  That is good you have your own style pie.  I hope we get to try it.  When we do head back I will try to make it on a Tuesday.   Walter

Walter,

Thanks for telling me about your youth and where you spent your summers and the pizzas you ate at the shore.  If you visited Seaside Heights Marucas pizza was also an example of a boardwalk style pizza that started in Trenton, NJ.  I don't know if you ever ate pizza at Marucas or not.  That pizza is part of my journey on the Tomato Pie thread. 

I heard that Star Tavern pizzas are a lot different than other pizzas and that is one reason I would like to try them sometime. 

My winters at market are okay, but the tourists don't come as much in the winter.  Winter can either be snowy, not to bad or a mixture.  Market is open all year long, but in the winter there are not a lot of outside stands open. 

I really like the way your place.  It reminds me of a store that was near me where I grew up.  There if people did not have enough money they just paid when they could.  That store started many years ago and I saw photos of when they had those high ladders to get things off high places.  That place reminds me of the Italian grocery store on your block in Bellville, NJ.  I like what you said in feed the hungry with a smile. 

Hope you get to visit market too.  It is a very big farmers market with many foods.

Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2013, 10:47:16 PM »

I'm thinking you're one of us, Norma, as is Scott. I hope someday I can hang out with all of you at the same time.

Ryan,

I have no idea if I exhibit any Asperger traits.  I am different, but no one every mentioned that to me before.  It would be nice to meet sometime.  I have met Scott two times when members went to NY.

Norma
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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2013, 06:09:36 AM »
Norma:  I never ate at Marucas.  I went by it hundreds of times but at $1 a slice when I was a kid that meant like 20 games of pinball in the arcades.  I remember the pie and it looked strange to me and money was very sparse in my life so I stuck to the shops I knew.  I will have to try it next time I am at the shore. My mother now lives in Toms  River which is only a few minutes away.  If you ever figure the star tavern pie out that is one I would love to taste! The oil on their pans and the baking process adds a unique flavor to the crust.  Walter

http://startavern.net/photos.html

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2013, 07:46:00 AM »
Norma:  I never ate at Marucas.  I went by it hundreds of times but at $1 a slice when I was a kid that meant like 20 games of pinball in the arcades.  I remember the pie and it looked strange to me and money was very sparse in my life so I stuck to the shops I knew.  I will have to try it next time I am at the shore. My mother now lives in Toms  River which is only a few minutes away.  If you ever figure the star tavern pie out that is one I would love to taste! The oil on their pans and the baking process adds a unique flavor to the crust.  Walter

http://startavern.net/photos.html

Walter,

I can understand why you never tried Marucas pizza since it was 1.00 a slice when you were younger.  My oldest daughter brought me some slices of Marucas pizza home from the shore this summer and really I was not impressed with them.  Marucas did burn in the recent fire and think I read somewhere that they temporally set up somewhere else.  There used to be a Marucas near the old fairgrounds in Trenton.  I think that was the original Marucas.  The first time I went to Trenton Bill's near Trenton we went to Joey's Pizza of Hamilton http://www.joeyspizzaofhamilton.com/  Joey's Pizza is somehow related to the original Marucas I think.  The pizza at Joey's Pizza in Hamilton was delicious in every way in my opinion.   

Lol, I don't know how I would be able to figure out how to make a Star Tavern pizza, but if I ever get to visit there I will watch what they do and see what I can find out.  Adam Kuban on Slice has been trying to replicate a Star Tavern pizza for awhile.  I have an old pan that I can cut apart if I ever get an idea of how to make a Star Tavern pizza.  I have looked at many photos of Star Tavern pizzas.

Norma
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2013, 12:55:29 PM »
Ryan,

I have no idea if I exhibit any Asperger traits.  I am different, but no one every mentioned that to me before.  It would be nice to meet sometime.  I have met Scott two times when members went to NY.

Norma

I'll try to keep from derailing this thread any further after this post, but I think you may be interested in knowing why I said what I said. Here's why:

I tend to get really focused on making (and attempting to clone) particular styles of pizza, which sometimes may be very alien to me, if not completely alien to me; which also tend to be styles that no one else seems to know how to replicate very well (or at all). For example, Tommy's style laminated cracker crust and Giordano's style stuffed pizza. I've contributed many pages of rhetoric and pictures in an effort to solve these two styles of pizza (one of which I've never had), attempting to share every little detail about almost every pizza I make; sometimes to the point where it surely gets very confusing to most readers. It's almost like a science journal, I suppose, yet sometimes built heavily upon very unscientific thought processes.

Without putting too much thought into it, Norma, you seem to be the only other member who operates or functions in a similar manner. But I'd say you take it to a whole other level. Which is cool. (Also, you are infinitely more polite than me.) These boards are filled with people who are obsessed with pizza, but I think you and I are kinda unique in our expression of obsession; particularly because we both seek to fully understand many diverse styles of pizza, sharing every detail of every success and every failure, whereas most people seem to keep themselves in a comfort zone of maybe one or two different pizza styles (and usually don't share their pizza failures).

It seems fazzari might come from a similar mould, as well, but it's hard to say for sure since he has so much less time to devote to the boards than either you or I. I'm really beginning to appreciate fazzari's approach and methodology, which somehow mostly escaped me for almost three years.

I'd say Peter is a lot like us, too, yet totally different at the same time. There's no one on this planet like Peter, and there probably never will be. There will be a Wikipedia page about Pete-zza someday; maybe even text books. However, they probably won't be able to say much about Peter on a personal level because Peter is so secretive about his identity and personal life. Peter is Clark Kent.

Scott123, I suspect, may be akin to John Frusciante (former guitarist of the Red Hot Chili Peppers): Knowledgeable about many different things, both pizza-related and not, but a virtuoso of NY style pizza and everything that constitutes NY style pizza, like no one else will ever be (and probably a little awkward socially). I envision Scott as a bit like Rain Man (but certainly not to the point of totally freaking out whenever a little kitchen smoke sets off a smoke detector). In a word, passionate.

I think Chicago Bob fits into the "A Little Different" club, as well, although I feel like he probably tends to obscure a lot of knowledge and personality traits behind goofiness. In other words, I think Bob knows a hell of a lot more about pizza than most long-term active pizzamaking.com members realize.

And obviously Walter takes a ton of pride in his membership in the "A Little Different" club.

I'm very analytical.






P.S. - If anything I've said here seems offensive or insensitive, please let me know so I can edit or delete it. I did not intend to offend anyone, but I've come to realize that a lot of people seem to be easily offended by things that would never offend me. (Like if someone revealed publicly that I'm kinda quirky or strange or unique, even though it's already obvious to everyone who knows anything about me.) To me, the things I've said in this post are compliments, or small celebrations of uniqueness. The people I've mentioned in this post fascinate me. If that did not come through clearly in my words, please accept my sincere apology.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2013, 05:07:07 PM »
Scott123, I suspect, may be akin to John Frusciante (former guitarist of the Red Hot Chili Peppers): Knowledgeable about many different things, both pizza-related and not, but a virtuoso of NY style pizza and everything that constitutes NY style pizza, like no one else will ever be (and probably a little awkward socially). I envision Scott as a bit like Rain Man (but certainly not to the point of totally freaking out whenever a little kitchen smoke sets off a smoke detector). In a word, passionate.

One Minute to Wapner! :-D

I'm not sure where this term came from, but with the emergence of online forums, the 'smug scientific b**ard' (SSB) rose to greater prominence.  I've always been a bit of a geek (no, I don't collect comic books or play video games ;) ) but, over the last 20 years, I've ramped up my online geekiness a bit in an attempt to garner the coveted SSB crown.  Don't get me wrong, I'm still socially awkward, but I'm probably a skootch less than you'd expect me to be.

Thanks for the exceedingly kind words.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 08:06:31 PM by scott123 »

Online norma427

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2013, 05:08:22 PM »
Ryan,

I know you tend to get really focused on making and attempting to clone particular styles of pizza.  There is nothing wrong with doing that.  It is hard though to try and clone a pizza you never tasted.  I just found that out on the tomato pie thread when I actually tasted a De Lorenzo pizza.  I never would have thought that pizza would have tasted like it did if I actually would not have gone to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.

I have been on reverse engineering and cloning threads, but on those threads other members and Peter helped out.  I just like to see what make different pizzas different and also see if I like them.  Of course I also learn a lot on the journey.  I never could have worked on clones of pizzas alone, because even my math skills are bad.  I agree that some of the threads do get long and it is hard for members or guests to decide what to try when they want to make that style of pizza if there are many pages in those threads.  I think most guests that come here and even a lot of new members are just looking for a recipe and then  quickly disappear.  If I was younger I would not have time to do all the experiments I do.  Most members stick to one style or a couple of styles of pizzas, but some do branch out in learning about different pizzas they never tasted.  John (fazzari) also likes to experiment and has helped many members here on the forum.  Of course there are members like Craig that have taken his style of pizza to a whole new level.  Chau is also a member that experiments a lot and makes great pizza.  I don't want to miss any members (and can't think of all of them right now) that do experiment, but they are a lot more than you might realize from in the past and in the present.  My friend Steve (Ev) does experiment too, but doesn't post like I do.  I was fortunate that he let me use his wood-fired ovens to learn more about Neapolitan pizzas.  I agree that is no one else like Peter though and probably never will be.  I did meet Peter at Craig's Pizza Summit this year and he seems like a very normal person.  I know Scott123 is very passionate about NY style pizza and tries to help members that want to make that style of pizza.  Bill the moderator also experiments a lot.  I could list lots of other members that experiment, but they don't post about every experiment, but they are great pizza makers.  Walter is also different and what he does right now sure is inspiring.   

You did not offend me in any way.  I think I throw myself into anything I want to learn and probably always have.  When my late husband and I had our caramel popcorn stand I tried to find every way different to make all kinds of popcorn and the candies we made.  When I had my funnel cake stand with other foods I did the same thing.  I think what I do come mostly from my father.  He was always a tinker and could do anything.  He was also always very curious about something he didn't know how to do and did things until he knew how to do them.  There is also a lot of bipolar on my father's side of the family.  Most of those people were and are very creative, but bipolar sure is not a good problem to have.  I am glad I didn't inherit that from my father's side of the family, but saw many, uncles, cousins and their children go though many troubling times and some of them still do.  I even had a great uncle that was very different and I believe he might have been bipolar too.  He used to walk around in the winter with no shoes on and sure was not very social, but he did win a Medal at the Olympics years ago. 

I think what makes different people tick here on the forum is interesting most of the time.  If the world would not have people with different personalities it would be a boring world.

Norma
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Online waltertore

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2013, 12:41:41 PM »
Walter,

 My oldest daughter brought me some slices of Marucas pizza home from the shore this summer and really I was not impressed with them.  Marucas did burn in the recent fire and think I read somewhere that they temporally set up somewhere else. 

Lol, I don't know how I would be able to figure out how to make a Star Tavern pizza, but if I ever get to visit there I will watch what they do and see what I can find out.  Adam Kuban on Slice has been trying to replicate a Star Tavern pizza for awhile.  I have an old pan that I can cut apart if I ever get an idea of how to make a Star Tavern pizza.  I have looked at many photos of Star Tavern pizzas.

Norma

Norma:  Maybe I will pass on the Seaside Park Marucus.  The video on their shop from some food channel show I found on an internet seach did not impress me.  A dough press, and the final pie looked not very tasty to me. 

I have watched them make star pies for most of my youth.  Next time I am there I will try to do some detective work like looking for bags of flour, sauce, and such.  When I go in a pizzeria I tend to get totally mesmorized and tunnel vison by watching the dough balls come out of the dough boxes, how many boxes are at room temp, how big a sauce bucket they have, how is their cheese grated and if it seems to be a blend or not, the consistency of the dough balls coming out at room temp going on the bench, how people make/assemble the pies, the way they cook in the oven when the doors open, and how they come out of the oven.  I onced asked a pizza cook at star what temp they ran the ovens at and they said 450.  I have learned growing up in NJ that 99% of the pizza makers will look you right in the eye and answer all your questions with a sincere look that would make me believe in them forever, but in reality it is usually all BS.   Walter
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 12:44:10 PM by waltertore »

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2013, 01:11:22 PM »
Norma:  Maybe I will pass on the Seaside Park Marucus.  The video on their shop from some food channel show I found on an internet seach did not impress me.  A dough press, and the final pie looked not very tasty to me. 

I have watched them make star pies for most of my youth.  Next time I am there I will try to do some detective work like looking for bags of flour, sauce, and such.  When I go in a pizzeria I tend to get totally mesmorized and tunnel vison by watching the dough balls come out of the dough boxes, how many boxes are at room temp, how big a sauce bucket they have, how is their cheese grated and if it seems to be a blend or not, the consistency of the dough balls coming out at room temp going on the bench, how people make/assemble the pies, the way they cook in the oven when the doors open, and how they come out of the oven.  I onced asked a pizza cook at star what temp they ran the ovens at and they said 450.  I have learned growing up in NJ that 99% of the pizza makers will look you right in the eye and answer all your questions with a sincere look that would make me believe in them forever, but in reality it is usually all BS.   Walter

Walter,

I can understand if you pass on Marucus.

That is nice of if the next time you go to Star Tavern you will see what you can find out.  I am kind of like you when it comes to watching everything, but sometimes there is too much to watch in one visit to a pizzeria to really find out enough.  I think you would be a great detective.  ;D

Norma
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Offline JD

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2013, 10:36:00 AM »
Hi Norma,

If you're interested I did a 3 day cold ferment with 62% hydration, 1.5% sugar, 2% oil & salt, and I had a spotty dough. My dough was actually under-fermented a bit, even after 3 hours warm up. I used about 0.09% IDY.

- Josh


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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2013, 11:01:19 AM »
Hi Norma,

If you're interested I did a 3 day cold ferment with 62% hydration, 1.5% sugar, 2% oil & salt, and I had a spotty dough. My dough was actually under-fermented a bit, even after 3 hours warm up. I used about 0.09% IDY.

- Josh

Hi Josh,

Where did you post about your spotty dough that was under-fermented a bit, even after a 3 hr. warm up using IDY?  I would be interested in seeing what methods you used.

Norma
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Offline JD

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2013, 11:09:14 AM »
I didn't post anything Norma, but if you have any specific questions about my methods I'd be happy to try and answer them.

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2013, 11:24:08 AM »
I didn't post anything Norma, but if you have any specific questions about my methods I'd be happy to try and answer them.

Josh,

The questions I would like to ask if what kind of flour did you use, what mixing method did you use, when did you add the IDY, if you took the final dough temperature and at what temperature did you cold ferment for 3 days to get spotting on a dough.  Your IDY amount sure wasn't a lot for a 3 day cold ferment.

Thanks!

Norma
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Offline JD

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2013, 11:38:23 AM »
I used 50/50 All trumps bromated & King Arthur All Purpose.

I mix with a KA and C hook based on an older post of mine http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24265.msg262525.html#msg262525

I add the IDY to 75% of the flour, then add this to 100% of the water at 95*

Final dough temp is 85* and it goes right into the fridge after balling.

Fridge temperature is between 38-40* but since it is an active refrigerator you never know exactly what the temps are through the entire 3 days.

You are right, it is a very low amount and I do that on purpose so I don't have to reball after 3 days. I could probably add a little more IDY if I wanted but I'd rather be under fermented and pull the dough out a few hours earlier to make up the difference.





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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2013, 11:50:14 AM »
I used 50/50 All trumps bromated & King Arthur All Purpose.

I mix with a KA and C hook based on an older post of mine http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24265.msg262525.html#msg262525

I add the IDY to 75% of the flour, then add this to 100% of the water at 95*

Final dough temp is 85* and it goes right into the fridge after balling.

Fridge temperature is between 38-40* but since it is an active refrigerator you never know exactly what the temps are through the entire 3 days.

You are right, it is a very low amount and I do that on purpose so I don't have to reball after 3 days. I could probably add a little more IDY if I wanted but I'd rather be under fermented and pull the dough out a few hours earlier to make up the difference.

Josh,

I will read over what you posted more in the next few days and also the link you posted on mixing.  I find that interesting that you had a spotty dough so fast. 

If it okay with you I might asked more questions.  I think if the weather is nice this coming Saturday I am going to Steve's home for the annual brewmaker's picnic.  I think I am going to take my BS if the weather is okay.  I might try out your dough and methods in the BS.

Norma
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Offline JD

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2013, 12:24:08 PM »
I also thought it was interesting that it was spotty after 3 days. I'm happy to help because you do the same for others 10 fold. Please do not hesitate to ask questions, I'm fairly methodical about my process so I hope my information is of benefit to your experiments.

I've never noticed the spots before, and there have really only been 2 significant changes in my methods recently. One is using a mix of AP flour and high gluten flour (I used straight all trumps prior, and straight bread flour prior to that). The other is using sugar (I never used sugar until fairly recently).

I'm sure what I'm about to say will be completely disregarded, but I think I'm noticing less activity after I started adding sugar. I have not purposely paid attention to this detail though so I cannot say for certain.


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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2013, 06:03:55 PM »
I also thought it was interesting that it was spotty after 3 days. I'm happy to help because you do the same for others 10 fold. Please do not hesitate to ask questions, I'm fairly methodical about my process so I hope my information is of benefit to your experiments.

I've never noticed the spots before, and there have really only been 2 significant changes in my methods recently. One is using a mix of AP flour and high gluten flour (I used straight all trumps prior, and straight bread flour prior to that). The other is using sugar (I never used sugar until fairly recently).

I'm sure what I'm about to say will be completely disregarded, but I think I'm noticing less activity after I started adding sugar. I have not purposely paid attention to this detail though so I cannot say for certain.

Josh,

I will study over your methods and post anymore questions on Wednesday unless I have time to read more until then.  I also am curious to what caused those spots in such a short amount of time.  I would not think using All Trumps and KAAP would do that, but I guess I will see.  I also would not think sugar would contribute to spotting, but I sure don't know that either.  I don't know about less activity after adding sugar either.  It is fun to experiment though and I will see if I can get the spotting too.

How many times did you get the spotting when using the same blend of flours, sugar and your method of mixing?

Norma
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Offline JD

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2013, 08:15:48 AM »

How many times did you get the spotting when using the same blend of flours, sugar and your method of mixing?


I'll be honest Norma, it's quite possible that it has happened before but if it did it never caught my eye. When I saw the spots over the weekend I remembered reading this thread, which is why I posted for you.

I usually make pizza every other week, so if it happens again next week I'll let you know. I'll try and do everything exactly the same as I did last time.


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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2013, 09:44:06 PM »
I'll be honest Norma, it's quite possible that it has happened before but if it did it never caught my eye. When I saw the spots over the weekend I remembered reading this thread, which is why I posted for you.

I usually make pizza every other week, so if it happens again next week I'll let you know. I'll try and do everything exactly the same as I did last time.

Josh,

Thanks for telling me it is quite possible that the spotting happened before, but if did not catch your eye.  Thanks also for telling me you would let me know when the spotting happens again with tryig do everything exactly the same things as you did the last time.

I thought I saw spots in a 2 day dough today and even Steve thought he saw them too, but they looked tiny if they really were spots.  If there were really spots I have no idea how that happened.  When I took the dough ball out to warm up they were not there.  That dough ball was for the De Lorenzo clone dough.

Steve did bring some more spotty dough balls today.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2013, 12:26:36 PM »
Norma,

As you might recall, I had a fair amount of experience with the spotting phenomenon in the course of the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251. In the course of that thread, I was trying to make doughs that would last for many days. I wasn't expecting to see spots in the doughs but once I started to observe them, that got my attention and I proceeded to conduct a wide variety of experiments to see if I could determine the cause or causes of the phenomenon. You can read a summary of those experiments at Reply 78 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg41385.html#msg41385. As you can see from that post, I largely blamed the flour for the spotting, specifically, the high-gluten flour that I was using. Also, I saw that the spotting tended to appear after several days of cold fermentation although in one case I saw the spots after 2-3 days.

More recently, Walter (waltertore), in a post earlier in this thread, at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,27729.msg280731/topicseen.html#msg280731, made the observation that got my attention that "long fermentations that started with cold water make for a more spotty dough". That was not something I had considered or tested before as a possible cause of spotting even though the doughs that I was making did make use of cold water. That was by design. I used the cold water to achieve low finished dough temperatures, along with the late addition of IDY, the use of metal storage containers, and short dough preparation times (usually about 10-12 minutes) with gentle kneading to keep the heat of friction down, all in order to extend the useful lives of the doughs to many days. It's possible that the spotting I observed at the time of my tests had something to do with the water temperature, not the type of flour.

As you know, spotting of the dough is harmless, whatever its causes. But, like you, I like to understand the causes, if only to tie up loose ends or to satisfy my curiosity.

Peter

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2013, 12:45:22 PM »
It's possible that the spotting I observed at the time of my tests had something to do with the water temperature, not the type of flour.

Peter,

Although I have not done any experimentation on this subject, I know for certain that I started with 95* water and ended with 85* which produced a spotty dough. The only similarity between your experiment and my process is the short dough preparation time. Start to finish usually takes around 20 minutes, with a total knead time never exceeding 2-3 minutes (but keep in mind I knead at a very fast speed on my KA at 30s intervals)


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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2013, 02:09:27 PM »
Peter,

Although I have not done any experimentation on this subject, I know for certain that I started with 95* water and ended with 85* which produced a spotty dough. The only similarity between your experiment and my process is the short dough preparation time. Start to finish usually takes around 20 minutes, with a total knead time never exceeding 2-3 minutes (but keep in mind I knead at a very fast speed on my KA at 30s intervals)

how can you start with 95 degree water and end with 85 degree dough?


I will get spotting  with cold water mixing and several day fermentation.  Mixing is the same as with short fermentation dough and warmer water.  I go so far as to use ice water for more than 2 day fermentations.  We have a very cold fridge in our shop and is pretty much dedicated to dough balls.  It takes several hours for that dough to be ready for opening easily.   I don't keep temperature data but go by the feel of the dough.  I am looking at some 3 day old dough in the fridge that used cold tap water.  This time of year that is still pretty warm and there is no spotting on the dough.  We made some NY style bagels today that will ferment overnight and used ice water.  I mix my bagels for a good 10 minutes to develop a lot of glueten and a chewy texture.  The hobart heats the dough up pretty good and even with the ice water, finishes at a fairly warm temp.   They never spot and I think it is because it is only a 24 hour ferment and a couple hour room temp rise before boiling.  Walter
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 02:16:52 PM by waltertore »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Spotty Dough from a Week Ago
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2013, 03:04:30 PM »
how can you start with 95 degree water and end with 85 degree dough?
Walter,

The answer to that question depends on the room temperature and the friction factor of Josh's mixer when he uses the method described at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24265.msg262525.html#msg262525. For example, if his flour is at a room temperature of 70 degrees F and the friction factor of Josh's mixer making the dough the way he describes in Reply 22 referenced above is 20 degrees F (a guess on my part), and he uses water at 95 degrees F, then the finished dough temperature would be 85 degrees F. It's also possible in Josh's case that his room temperature is always lower than the temperature of the dough as it is being made. With two 10-minute rest periods, the warmer dough will give up heat to its surroundings during those rest periods and end up with a lower final temperature at the time that it is refrigerated.

Since Josh lives in Mississippi, it would be interesting to know his room temperature this time of year. I suspect that he has not conducted tests to determine the friction factor of his mixer using the method described in Reply 22.

Peter


 

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