Author Topic: Dough is too tough to work  (Read 1978 times)

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Offline billneild

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Dough is too tough to work
« on: February 28, 2006, 03:36:34 PM »
I used to buy the fresh pizza dough at the local megamart.  Not bad, but not what I was looking for, a genuine NYC thin crust pie.  I just had my "dead of winter" pizza party and although everyone liked it, it was not quite what I was looking for.  The dough was too tight to work and the edge did not get that big poofy hollowness.  Iused to make pizza for a living many years ago and the dough we used came from our inhouse commissary where it had been resting in a cooler at least overnight. The Facts:  I used bread flour, ADY, olive oil and salt.  Used a food processor.  Let it rise, punch down, reshape, second rise.  Used dough within about 3 hours of making.  Did not refrigerate.  From what I have read here it seems that the dough will be looser if I make it the day before and let it loosen up in the fridge.  I don't think I used as much water as some of the posts seem to call for.  Any thoughts?

By the way.  I haven't seen it mentioned here, although it probably is, if anyone is having trouble with baking on a stone (sticking, getting it off the peel, etc.) try using parchment paper.  It puts the pizza all but on the stone, never sticks and never gets beyond slightly browned (no fires!).

Bill


Offline youonlylivetwice

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Re: Dough is too tough to work
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2006, 04:28:22 PM »
Hi Bill,
you'll get much better replies than mine, but my best NY pizza to date has come from using a high gluten flour, either high-gluten or bread flour upped with a little VWG, and literally a four day cold rise.  I make it Wednesday night and it goes in the fridge till noon Sunday, then sits out till I make za around 5pm.  Oh, and I am careful to not knead it too much, I give it a couple minutes knead and then rest about 15 minutes, and do that three times before hitting the fridge. My gut is that if you knead it by hand by stretch and folding it you'll get more air in it that will result in the larger pockets.  Again, just my feeling, I try to be reasonably scientific but I am always blown away by the knowledge here....
best of luck on the za!!

Offline chiguy

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Re: Dough is too tough to work
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2006, 05:10:48 PM »
 Hi Billnield,
 I understand what you are looking for, a very open airy crumb. This is achieved with the proper hydration, high oven temperatures and the pizza hitting a hot stone definetely helps. It would really help us here at the forum if you posted you're recipe,formulation/mixing process and handleing process, in more detail?? Are you hand stretching the dough??          Chiguy
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 05:13:08 PM by chiguy »

Offline youonlylivetwice

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Re: Dough is too tough to work
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2006, 05:18:51 PM »
Precisely why I typically opt to listen rather than speak, I left out hydration and assumed you were using the hottest oven you could.  I will now retreat and listen.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough is too tough to work
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2006, 06:28:18 PM »
billnield,

youonlylivetwice and chiguy have pretty much nailed it. It would help, however, to see your recipe. I am fairly confident we can help you convert it to a cold fermented version, or else recommend a better recipe.

Peter

Offline billneild

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Re: Dough is too tough to work
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2006, 03:13:06 PM »
OK, here goes.  All items weighed except for salt using digital scale accurate to 1/8 oz. 16 oz. KA Bread flour, 8 and 5/8 oz. water, 1 package ADY, 1 and 5/8 t salt, 1 and 5/8 oz. extra virgin olive oil.  Allowed yeast to bloom in 110 degree water (used digital instant read thermometer).  Added oil to water, added salt to flour.  Used a food processor first to mix in salt (dry to dry) then put in water/yeast/oil mix.  Processed for only as long as it took to come together and take on an elastic texture.  Hand kneaded for 1 minute more.  Cut dough in half (to make two small pizzas) oiled dough balls, put in bowls, covered with plastic wrap.  Allowed to double.  Punched down, and reformed ball.  Approx. 3 to 4 hours later took expanded dough balls and put on floured surface.  Floured top.  Finger punched down to leave "rolled" edge and thin middle.  Dough not loose enough.  Hand tossed and hand stretched around circumference to size.  Put skin on peel with a layer of parchment paper between.  Since I made ten pizzas I made them in various ways.  Oven (which has a calibration feature) was calibrated to go to 585 degrees.  Oven had been at peak temp. for over an hour.  Used a thick rectangular stone.  5 to 6 minutes in oven.  Crust was thin and crispy except that edges did not "poof" up and seem a little too crispy.  Everyone loved the pizzas but then most of them were used to using AP flour and no oil.  I am looking for that NYC crisp but chewy foldable crust that is very easy to work on the bench.  I am trying again tonight with the same recipe plus refrigeration over night per youonlylivetwice comment.  Any other thoughts?

Bill

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough is too tough to work
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2006, 04:08:14 PM »
Bill,

Thanks for the information.

I think the reason the dough is too tough to work with is because you are not using enough water. Using 8.625 oz. of water yields a hydration of 53.9% (8.625/16 = 53.9). A typical NY style uses around 60%, give or take a few percent. I typically use 63%. At 63%, you would need 10.08 oz. of water.

You oil is also too high for a NY style. If you are using 1.625 oz. of oil, that comes to about 9 7/8 t. (about 3 1/4 T.), or 10.1%. A rate of around 1-4% is more typical for a NY style. So, for now I would suggest reducing the oil to around 3%, or 0.48 oz. I would also recommend that you not mix the oil with the water. Once the dough has formed in your processor bowl, the oil can then be added. Adding the oil last prevents the oil from interfering with the hydration of the flour by the water.

It sounds like you heated all of the water to 110 degrees F and then added the ADY to proof it. I would like to suggest that you use only a small amount of the total water, say, 1/4 c., and use that to proof the ADY. The rest of the water should remain cool. In fact, I would use very cold water for that portion since your food processor will add a lot of heat to the dough in the form of frictional heat. With all the yeast you are using (one packet), the frictional heat will cause the dough to rise very very quickly. So, you want to keep the dough on the cool side, and especially if you plan to try a cold fermentation. If you decide on cold fermentation, I would cut back on the yeast by at least a half. Otherwise it will be hard to cool down the dough and it will balloon up in the refrigerator. I would also go directly to the refrigerator after you have finished hand kneading the dough. You should divide the dough into two pieces, lightly coat them with a bit of oil, and put them into covered containers to go into the refrigerator.

The dough will be usable after about 24 hours and up to 72 hours. When you are ready to make the pizzas, bring the dough balls to room temperature and allow them to warm up for about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. If your kitchen is on the cool side, it might take a bit longer.

I estimate that your formulation will produce a total dough weight of around 27 ounces, or around 13.5 oz. for each of two dough balls. A weight of 13.5 oz. used for a NY style pizza should allow you to make a roughly 13" pizza.

The rest of your procedure seems OK. I think if you follow the above recommendations and suggestions, you should see improved performance. If not, come back and let us know what you experienced. Good luck.

Peter





« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 02:49:21 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline billneild

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Re: Dough is too tough to work
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2006, 03:12:54 PM »
OK guys you nailed it!  Using Pete's revisions I made the best crust I've ever made!  Actually I made it twice, but the second time was better since I waited more than 20 minutes to use the dough.  I followed Pete's suggestions to the letter and not only was the crust superb in terms of taste and texture (crisp yet toothy) it was also incredibly easy to work.  Took shape in seconds, did not tear.  I found that 10 ounces of flour works out to about a perfect 15" pie.  In my attempt to say thanks I want to pass on a neat trick about mozzerella.  Although a tad expensive, if you can find smoked mozzerella and shred it in a food processor it imparts a smokey flavor close to a wood fired stove.  Give it a try!  Once again, thanks for the help!

Bill

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough is too tough to work
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2006, 03:45:41 PM »
Bill,

Good news :).

Now that you have gotten better results, you should feel free to tweak your recipe to see if you can get even better results. For example, you could cut the oil back to 1% (about a teaspoon) and cut the yeast back some more, to around 0.5%, or about 5/8 teaspoon. If you don't like the changes you can always go back to your current recipe.

I definitely plan to try the smoked mozzarella. Thanks for the tip.

Peter


 

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