Author Topic: A 3-fold sour dough  (Read 1887 times)

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Offline fazzari

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A 3-fold sour dough
« on: October 01, 2013, 11:43:38 PM »
My goal in this exercise is to make a simple, quick, delicious dough using techniques I've learned from other experiments.  I am not a purist...there is yeast in my recipe...I'm just looking for a good pizza!!  The recipe is:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (64%):
Salt (2.5%):
IDY (.4%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (170.9%):
Single Ball:

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

837.73 g  |  29.55 oz | 1.85 lbs
536.15 g  |  18.91 oz | 1.18 lbs
20.94 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.75 tsp | 1.25 tbsp
3.35 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
16.75 g | 0.59 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.72 tsp | 1.24 tbsp
16.75 g | 0.59 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.2 tsp | 1.4 tbsp
1431.68 g | 50.5 oz | 3.16 lbs | TF = N/A
286.34 g | 10.1 oz | 0.63 lbs
 
 
143.17 g | 5.05 oz | 0.32 lbs
143.17 g | 5.05 oz | 0.32 lbs
286.34 g | 10.1 oz | 0.63 lbs

 
694.56 g | 24.5 oz | 1.53 lbs
392.98 g | 13.86 oz | 0.87 lbs
20.94 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.75 tsp | 1.25 tbsp
3.35 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
286.34 g | 10.1 oz | 0.63 lbs
16.75 g | 0.59 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.72 tsp | 1.24 tbsp
16.75 g | 0.59 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.2 tsp | 1.4 tbsp
1431.68 g | 50.5 oz | 3.16 lbs  | TF = N/A
I'm using my Ischia starter.  It was fed earlier in the morning and used at night.  The flour is All Trumps.

Pour all ingredients in my kitchen aid bowl.
1.  Mix with paddle on 1 for 1 minute
2.  Rest 5 minutes
3.  Mix with paddle on 2 for 1 minute.
4.  Pour dough on lightly oiled work surface...stretch and fold (this is fold 1)
5.  Rest 5 minutes
6.  Stretch and fold (this is fold 2)
7.  Scale, ball and refrigerate....I've made 5 dough balls each weighing 10 ounces to use the next 5 days.

John


Offline fazzari

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2013, 11:50:45 PM »
Here is dough number 1.  It is 23 hours old.  5 hours prior to bake, I took it out of the fridge and folded it.  It was then left out to ferment for 5 hours.  The reason I pick the 5 hour mark is that it seems to be the magic number to get a crisp, tender dough.  Also, I can leave the dough out and not have to mess with it.  If you like chewier dough you might try folding at the 12 hour mark prior to the bake time.  This dough was stretched to 12 inches, it is strong but very easy to stretch.  It was baked in a 560 degree deck...about 4 minutes 30 seconds.  Crisp, tender, light and lots of color....a delicious pizza and it was made as simple as a pizza can be made.

John
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 11:52:23 PM by fazzari »

Online tinroofrusted

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2013, 02:59:59 PM »
Hey Faz, this looks interesting.  I am a bit confused about how the Ischia gets into the dough.  The recipe doesn't seem to make any mention of it.  Maybe I'm missing something.  Do you put the Ischia in the preferment or into the final dough?  The photos look great so far. 

Online mitchjg

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2013, 04:07:05 PM »
Hi John:

Can you educate me on one of your comments? You mention that if the dough is folded 12 hours before bake time, it will be chewier.  I am confused.  Is that compared to 5 hours before?  I thought (perhaps wrongly) that if you let it relax longer after folding or balling that it will be less chewy.

thanks,
Mitch

Offline fazzari

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2013, 07:35:55 PM »
Hey Faz, this looks interesting.  I am a bit confused about how the Ischia gets into the dough.  The recipe doesn't seem to make any mention of it.  Maybe I'm missing something.  Do you put the Ischia in the preferment or into the final dough?  The photos look great so far.
The Ischia is the preferment.  It represents 20% of the total dough weight in this exercise.  I know this is high, but originally all I was looking for was added flavor in a short time, and this works splendidly.

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2013, 07:44:45 PM »
Hi John:

Can you educate me on one of your comments? You mention that if the dough is folded 12 hours before bake time, it will be chewier.  I am confused.  Is that compared to 5 hours before?  I thought (perhaps wrongly) that if you let it relax longer after folding or balling that it will be less chewy.

thanks,
Mitch
Mitch
Assume you were to mix a batch of dough making 5 dough balls, which are left in the fridge to ferment.  And further assume you were going bake one dough ball a day for 5 days.  Each dough ball will bake differently from the rest, but especially maybe after day 2 or 3, where they seem to lose a little mmmmph!  I have found that by folding these doughs, I get a rejuvenated ball that bakes much better crust.  After experimenting for many, many months...I have found that 5 hours prior to bake, the fold gives "ME" what I like best in a great pizza...crispness.  If you fold your dough earlier than that you still will get a superior dough (in my opinion only), but it won't have the same crispness....again this is my personal love, and I strive to get it everytime I can...and so now I schedule my last fold...so far I get the same results everytime.

John
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 07:49:31 PM by fazzari »

Offline fazzari

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2013, 07:47:33 PM »
Here's my day 2 dough.  38 hours old.....the third fold again happens 5 hours prior to bake and the dough is left out to ferment.   This one is baked in a cooler 530 degree oven.  Still get the crispness, tenderness and most of all the unbelievable flavor in the rim.  The extra 12 hours in the fridge was amazing for flavor..

John


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2013, 10:06:07 AM »
The Ischia is the preferment.  It represents 20% of the total dough weight in this exercise.  I know this is high, but originally all I was looking for was added flavor in a short time, and this works splendidly.

John,

Actually, 20% natural preferment is in line with what one might use for a cold fermented dough. Several years ago, when I was conducting all kinds of experiments with the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, I made a naturally leavened version of the Lehmann dough using 20% natural preferment. As I noted at Reply 151 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774, I arrived at the 20% figure from a fellow member, bakerboy (Barry), who was (and still is) a professional baker. I later made several other naturally leavened doughs and I continued to use the 15-20% figure. Sometimes I might have used a bit more or a bit less depending on the condition of my natural starter (either Ischia or Camaldoli) at the time I planned to use it.

I subsequently found confirmation of Barry's numbers at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howdoiconvertyeastbreadrec.html.

Peter

Offline fazzari

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2013, 11:32:33 AM »
John,

Actually, 20% natural preferment is in line with what one might use for a cold fermented dough. Several years ago, when I was conducting all kinds of experiments with the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, I made a naturally leavened version of the Lehmann dough using 20% natural preferment. As I noted at Reply 151 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774, I arrived at the 20% figure from a fellow member, bakerboy (Barry), who was (and still is) a professional baker. I later made several other naturally leavened doughs and I continued to use the 15-20% figure. Sometimes I might have used a bit more or a bit less depending on the condition of my natural starter (either Ischia or Camaldoli) at the time I planned to use it.

I subsequently found confirmation of Barry's numbers at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howdoiconvertyeastbreadrec.html.

Peter

Many thanks Peter!!!  I don't know what it is...I just love the feel and the smell of the raw dough.  And the crumb reminds me of paper that's been cut with those jagged type scissors...its got a different look.  Anyway, this process is so easy I'll use it more often since it takes so little time.  Again thanks for the info which kinda validates what I'm doing.
John

Offline texmex

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2013, 03:59:30 PM »
Having followed many of your threads, I decided to try this one today. Yesterday evening I fed my starter and let it sit out overnite. This morning at 8 am I mixed the dough using your weights for 1431.58 total dough weight.
but I split the dough into 6 balls rather than 5(roughly 240 g each) since my stone is only 12". 

I used a mix of flour -- all purpose @ (250g) and (444.56g) bread flour. My preferment is a revived 50/50 by weight starter which I have been using a lot of recently and it has been fed with all purpose flour.  The dough was slightly salty, but I liked it (I used iodized sea salt).  table sugar, olive oil, IDY as specified.

Following your method I was concerned about your mention of pouring the dough out since there was no pouring involved. :-D Mostly just scraped it off the paddle. :-D 

I then refrigerated 4 of the balls and set the other 2 to ferment at RT. 
I wanted to bake at 1 pm so I stretch and reballed at 10 am and the dough was well developed by 1:00 for fairly easy opening, dressing and baking at 550 for 5 and 1/2 minutes in my home oven middle rack. 

What a tasty and beautiful pizza!  I'm convinced this will be my go to recipe and can't wait to try out the rest of the dough as the days pass.  Thank you, John!

I was in a hurry and had no sauce--this was chopped grape tomatoes, fresh basil, chopped fresh garlic, hand cut pepperoni and mozzarella chunks.  I little greasy but damned good.  :drool: Would have had better pics, but these got devoured too quickly!

Reesa


Offline fazzari

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2013, 11:16:44 PM »
Having followed many of your threads, I decided to try this one today. Yesterday evening I fed my starter and let it sit out overnite. This morning at 8 am I mixed the dough using your weights for 1431.58 total dough weight.
but I split the dough into 6 balls rather than 5(roughly 240 g each) since my stone is only 12". 

I used a mix of flour -- all purpose @ (250g) and (444.56g) bread flour. My preferment is a revived 50/50 by weight starter which I have been using a lot of recently and it has been fed with all purpose flour.  The dough was slightly salty, but I liked it (I used iodized sea salt).  table sugar, olive oil, IDY as specified.

Following your method I was concerned about your mention of pouring the dough out since there was no pouring involved. :-D Mostly just scraped it off the paddle. :-D 

I then refrigerated 4 of the balls and set the other 2 to ferment at RT. 
I wanted to bake at 1 pm so I stretch and reballed at 10 am and the dough was well developed by 1:00 for fairly easy opening, dressing and baking at 550 for 5 and 1/2 minutes in my home oven middle rack. 

What a tasty and beautiful pizza!  I'm convinced this will be my go to recipe and can't wait to try out the rest of the dough as the days pass.  Thank you, John!

I was in a hurry and had no sauce--this was chopped grape tomatoes, fresh basil, chopped fresh garlic, hand cut pepperoni and mozzarella chunks.  I little greasy but damned good.  :drool: Would have had better pics, but these got devoured too quickly!
Yay!!!! Glad it worked for you.  The most amazing part of this process to me, is the second stretch and fold.  I keep expecting to have to work at it, but the dough just stretches like it's been worked forever.  thanks for sharing your results.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2013, 11:20:11 PM »
Here's my third dough.  It's 86 hours old, the third fold was done 4 hours prior to bake and left out to ferment.  The dough is less strong now, and is very simple to stretch.    Still makes excellent pizza....not quite as crisp as I love...but hey, it's 86 hours old.
John

« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 09:06:36 AM by fazzari »

Offline texmex

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2013, 01:02:55 PM »
It's so simple, John!  I was also surprised at the quick development of the dough.

Now I've got to figure out a switch since I used my last packet of IDY with this last dough.  I have plenty of ADY...any recommendations on how much ADY to use in future dough? 

Got a late start today, but I guess I better go stretch n reball 2 more for a 4 pm bake this afternoon. :)

Thanks again, John.  You've cracked the code for my home oven pizza!

edited: to add photos and confess I was too hungry to wait until 4 pm...definitely more difficult to open the dough, but I just let the skins rest while I was prepping toppings, and eventually got them to open up well.  First off, the flavor of this dough is very changed from yesterday. mmmmmm, complexity!  I moved my stone up one rack in the oven and got a little better browning on the rims with a 6.5 minute bake at 550. 

Whoever got me started using Br. sprouts on pizza - THANK YOU!!!   
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 04:55:06 PM by texmex »
Reesa

Offline fazzari

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2013, 04:45:20 PM »
It's so simple, John!  I was also surprised at the quick development of the dough.

Now I've got to figure out a switch since I used my last packet of IDY with this last dough.  I have plenty of ADY...any recommendations on how much ADY to use in future dough? 

Got a late start today, but I guess I better go stretch n reball 2 more for a 4 pm bake this afternoon. :)

Thanks again, John.  You've cracked the code for my home oven pizza!
I've read where you could add 20% more active yeast than IDY
John

Offline texmex

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2013, 04:59:48 PM »
Thanks, John.  I found a thread in the ingredients forum where Chau posted a link to a yeast conversion chart:

http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm

BTW--I already baked my day 2 doughs-posted the pics in my previous reply. :D
Reesa

Offline fazzari

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2013, 02:28:55 AM »
Well, here's a dough that is 122 hours old.  Because yesterdays dough was so easy to stretch, I tried something a little different.  When it came time for the fold, I emptied my dough on the counter, pushed it out to about 10 inch diameter and did a super fold from that position.  Only left dough out 3 hours prior to bake this time.  I'm amazed as the dough is super strong again, and resists stretching (just a bit), bakes up nice and brown and is crispy again...which is what I like em all to be!!  To say this pizza is excellent just doesn't describe it.

John

Offline texmex

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2013, 06:09:41 PM »
3rd day and...This dough just holds up beautifully.  (Even with my bastardization by using some AP flour in the mix).  My S/F outta the fridge was a little scary this time since I was getting a bit of ripping, but once I got the SF done and the dough rested it regained strength and opened just fine. 

I know they say without pictures, it never happened...but if the pizza is too good and is inhaled immediately-I'm sure you'll forgive my indiscretion this time. :P 

I hope it was a good idea when I decided  to make a second batch and freeze the other 6 balls. :-\

Back to baking bread this following week, since my quest for home oven pizza has been satisfied beyond my wildest dream. ha ha!

Reesa

Offline fazzari

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2013, 01:44:16 AM »
3rd day and...This dough just holds up beautifully.  (Even with my bastardization by using some AP flour in the mix).  My S/F outta the fridge was a little scary this time since I was getting a bit of ripping, but once I got the SF done and the dough rested it regained strength and opened just fine. 

I know they say without pictures, it never happened...but if the pizza is too good and is inhaled immediately-I'm sure you'll forgive my indiscretion this time. :P 

I hope it was a good idea when I decided  to make a second batch and freeze the other 6 balls. :-\

Back to baking bread this following week, since my quest for home oven pizza has been satisfied beyond my wildest dream. ha ha!
So glad your quest has been satisfied!!.  But, I'm afraid it is only beginning....keep experimenting!!
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2013, 01:52:27 AM »
My last dough is 146 hours old.  On the last fold, the dough again was flattened on the counter and stretched to make a sheet, and then folded..  It fermented 4 hours prior to bake.  The result was a pizza that wasn't particularly pretty (black blisters, dark bottom), but it was delicious, crisp and tender.  To be able to obtain a crisp, tender dough with this much age on it is very exciting to me.  Not that I like old doughs, but in the fact that the process means so much even to younger doughs.

John

Offline texmex

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Re: A 3-fold sour dough
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2013, 12:40:00 PM »
Just wanted to report in that my frozen dough performed very nicely as well....can't decide which crust I liked best, they were all so good, but this frozen dough had a ton of ooomph (I let it sit at room temp longer before I baked it-so that may very well be the only reason it seemed to POP :) ).

I'll post some pics next time I bake from the remaining 4 frozen balls.

Once I've consumed these I will try a formulation using ADY. :)
Reesa


 

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