Tinkering With A Great Recipe

[Pete-zza]

Vital wheat gluten (VWG) is available at many local supermarkets, and also at high end food stores such as Whole Foods. Common brand names are Arrowhead, Hogsdon Mills, and Bob's Red Mill. Some places that sell bulk baking-related ingredients in bins also carry VWG. If you have a hard time finding the product on the shelves, ask for help since the VWG isn't always located near the flours.

Peter

[thehorse]

Thanks guys, I thought I might have to order it and wait a week or so, I am a little anxious to get started. I am in NYC, so I can pick it up today somewhere. Thanks again.

[mivler]

I just wanted to update anyone interested. As I had been trying to modify Raquel (see above) I decided to make the original recipe (the only change I made was to increase the hydration to 64%). After returning to the original (okay very slightly modified), I decided that my previous alterations definitely did not improve anything except the flavor. I did realize that my freezer is about 35 degrees and therefore I probably could keep the dough in a little longer to get a little more flavor. Anyway, I’m done with the multi step process I was attempting for now I’ll stick with the original with a slight increase in hydration.

Michael

[thehorse]

Here is a pic of a Raquel that was in the fridge for a week. I baked it on a Hearthkit in a Wolf electric oven for 7mins with the stone directly on the element. It read 677F on the IR. PS-Sorry, all other pics were overexposed.

[mivler]

thehorse,

Looks good. Did you use the original recipe or a modification?

Michael

[thehorse]

Michael,
 This was the original, but i think i will mess around with a little modification. I was able to disengage the latch on the clean cycle and tested the oven with a dry run. I got to about 750F then shut it down because it started to smell a little(maybe some residual cheese or something?) I made dough on thursday and will bake it on monday night with some higher heat. 2 batches- one original, and one with a small percentage of leftover Molino 00. I am a little nervous, the high heat thing seems so volatile.

Mike

[mivler]

My oven gets to about 700 I think. The thermostat doesn't work. I busted an oven thermometer in the oven. Anyway, I had success increasing the hydration to about 64%. Other than that I deceide the original recipe is the best version I have had. I have never tried the recipe with 00 flour.

[pftaylor]

mivler,
Sorry to have let so much time lapse before reading about your trials. The rigors of trying to create wealth keep on getting in the way of my pizzamaking. I must applaud your continued efforts to improve Pizza Raquel. She is the culmination of years of trying to achieve perfection. While I do not proclaim to have found that level of satisfaction I can tell you that I have tried nearly every possible variation known to man. The recipe, as it stands with its tried and true mixing regimen, is unsurpassed by any other I have had the pleasure to produce. Frankly, it is maxed out with the tools and technology available to me in Florida.

As an aside, I spent last week in NYC bumming from one elite pizzeria to the next hoping to meet Raquel's match and sadly the only inspiration I have found lies in Phoenix at Chris Bianco's place. The reason for my boasting comes down to my belief that pizza is crust and Raquel's crust is superb in all dimensions. Humbly I submit I know where she can be improved; Achieving the flavor and quality of ingredients of Bianco's and the texture of Luzzo's crust would just about do it for me.

In order to largely accomplish those lofty goals I would need to acquire a fork mixer and a Neapolitan wood burning oven. Those two purchases are on my radar screen to be sure.

[Peteg]

Very nice results with your last pizza thehorse.  PFT, what main advantages do you see with the fork mixer?  If money were no object, I would certainly have one for VPN reasons alone.  I have recently been extending my mix times out to 20-30 minutes on the recommendation of Scott R who always seems to be right on.  I can see how with extended mix times it would be helpfull to have a fork mixer that would keep the dough temp down but even with my KA 600, my dough temps never rise above 70 degrees.  I suppose that there could be friction temp that my thermometer can't measure.  Is that where the fork mixer would excel?  Just curious on your thoughts as to what a santos would do for your dough that a KA couldn't.  Luzzo's was that good huh?  How did that texture compare to bianco's.  Thanks, Peteg

[scott r]

peteg,  thanks for the shoutout.  With a fork mixer you would probably not need to go for 30 minutes. They are much more efficient than our home mixers, which is slightly offset by the larger batch sizes.

30 may be a bit excessive even with a KA, but I think 15- 20 is probably a good place to be. You should do some experiments making batches at different amounts using your own mixer. when I do these tests with my DLX I like to make 2 mini pizzas that can both be slid onto the same stone at the same time.  This removes the variable of baking time/cooling time, and how that can alter your perception of the dough texture. 

My comments on extending mixing times were based on people here at the forum who were mixing closer to 5 min with caputo and a DLX.  The DLX is even more gentle on the dough than a KA and therefore requires even longer mix times.

Also, these long mix times are in part necessitated by caputo and are not as important to KASL or other high gluten American flours.

[Pete-zza]

peteg,

It's possible that a link to Bill/SFNM's video on youtube has been posted somewhere else on this forum, but you can see how the Santos mixer works at

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uNLJyWMNRY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uNLJyWMNRY</a>

.

Peter

[pftaylor]

Peteg,
Luzzo's has demonstrated the capability to produce the best texture I have ever encountered in a pizza. Simply put they offer a wafer thin exterior (with plenty of char) with a silly-soft middle. That is exactly what I am striving for. Bianco offers the best overall crust experience anyone could ever ask for. Chris's toppings and his delicious crust flavor, put his pizza in a class by its own. No pizzeria comes close - in my opinion. Bianco's texture was close to perfect and, in fact, it surpassed the recent Luzzo crust I enjoyed in NYC over Thanksgiving.

What would a fork mixer do that my Kitchen Aid Professional can not do? Well, take a look at Bill/SFNM pies and I believe his quality speaks volumes. In my opinion, Bill/SFNM has achieved the highest level of desirable crumb structure on this site. I then think Scott r is next with his hand kneading and the others with a DLX and KA are far, far behind. KA owners, such as myself, simply cannot produce the texture and crumb structure that a Santos or a human hand can. I believe the DLX and KA (with dough hook) are so close in outcome that the additional investment is not clear cut in favor of the DLX. 

One notable exception to my position above may be the recent collaboration between November and Pete-zza on the thread entitled: "New KitchenAid Dough Making Method." I think they may be on to something which is so far out-of-the-box in its approach that I have not yet fully grasped its implications. One thing is for sure, with the scientific approach being utilized by November and Pete-zza I anticipate major breakhroughs being developed with respect to dough management and the resulting crust structure in the near future. They may put the pizza world on its collective head with what is possible.

Stay tuned...

[Peteg]

Thanks for the feedback guys.  It sounds like the santos may be worth it after all.  I've been pretty happy with my crust recently ever since I went back to using a starter with no idy or fresh yeast.  The outside is always just a little bit crisp with the inside full of nice voids.  The only thing that I would change would be to strive for a somewhat lighter dough.  It's kind of hard to describe, but for my taste I think that would simply mean having more voids or a slightly dryer crumb.  I think my next experiment would have to involve hand kneading in order to change the crumb.  I'll report back on how that turns out.  Thanks again, Peteg