Steve's quick & easy NY pie

[Lydia]

I'm wanting to keep the autolyse intact.

Please forgive me, but I'm not understanding.

I understand the flour must be hydrated 30 minutes prior to adding the salt and yeast.

So... I'm assuming I have become lost somewhere after this point. Maybe Unfamiliarity with the "classic autolyse as conceived by Professor Calvel".

I re-read the glossary, but that didn't enlighten me.

[Pete-zza]

Lydia,

I'm sorry. You are correct in your thinking. I was fixated on everything being put together in one bag, including the flour, just as the pizza chains do. If you separate the flour and combine it with water, you should be able to use the autolyse rest period. The salt, yeast, sugar and other ingredients can then be added after the rest period. I still think it would be a good experiment just to throw everything in the bowl at one time and add the water.

I discussed autolyse a bit more at the main thread devoted to Steve's basic recipe.

Peter

[Lydia]

Big Sigh of relief

Actually, before I try dumping everything together in a premix, I'm wanting to compare the KA against the food processor method.

I know there has to be some differences, hopefully minor differences, so curiosity has to goten to me.

[enob]

I gave this recipe a try this weekend for both a 3 hour rise and now a 3 day fermentation, in both cases I used the same procedure i normally use with a 20 minute autolyse pause but in both cases I used fresh yeast. The same day dough came out very good I made 1 16 inch pie and was surprised how good it tasted and then used the remainder for zeppolos that came out very good. I still have the second dough(cold fermentation test) in the refrigerator but it does not appear to be rising at all? Even though the crust came out airy it lacked the flavor I'm use to with a cold fermentation. Very impressed for a 3 hour rise..

[briterian]

So would people vote for mixing by:
1. Food processor
2. Mixer with dough hook/paddle?  (I have a kitchenaid)

would you also vote for:
A. 3 hr room temperature rise
B. Cold-fridge fermentation for 1-2 days?

[Steve]

So would people vote for mixing by:
1. Food processor
2. Mixer with dough hook/paddle?  (I have a kitchenaid)

would you also vote for:
A. 3 hr room temperature rise
B. Cold-fridge fermentation for 1-2 days?

In the spirit of keeping the recipe "quick and easy" I suggest using a food processor and a 3 hour rise. 

[Pete-zza]

I still have the second dough(cold fermentation test) in the refrigerator but it does not appear to be rising at all?

enob,

I'd be curious to know how the second pizza comes out. Did the dough rise at any time while in the refrigerator? And how much fresh yeast did you use and how did you measure it out?

Thanks.

Peter

[billneild]

A food processor is the way to go as long as you're not trying to work too much dough.  For a 15-16 inch pie starting with 10 oz. of flour, the standard 10-11 cup food processor is just about perfect.  If I scale up to 16 oz. of flour it can still handle it, but that's getting close to the limit.  Don't over process!  As Pete describes it you can easily overheat the dough and kill the yeast or destroy the gluten.  I pulse mine as I am adding water.  Once it comes together, one long 10 second pulse usually does it.  Finish with a minute of in the air hand kneading and shaping to a ball and your done.

A stand mixer starting with a paddle and finishing with an oiled dough hook works too, but it takes a lot longer and you usually have to fool around with the dough a little, pulling it off the hook.

Bill

[Pete-zza]

I have a 14-cup Cuisinart food processor and have found it ideal for making a dough batch size of around a pound. Beyond that, you will usually have to make multiple batches or use a stand mixer. I bought my food processor many years ago for purposes other than making pizza dough, but I would buy the 14-cup size today, or something equivalent, if I didn't already own a processor.

Peter

[Lydia]

Real quick note on using the KA.

If you have the older C-hook it would take longer to knead than the 2 minutes I used with the new spiral hook.

Also the spiral hook eleminates the need to scrape off the dough and dosen't need to be oiled.

From what Peter has been telling me, the 1-2 day cold ferment is out unless you decrease the amount of yeast.

BUT

I was highly impressed with the results of a shorter 6 hour cold ferment, with 2 hours to bring to room temp.

So my votes is, if you have the food processor use it, it's quicker. But maybe I can talk you into the 6hr. cold ferment. 

[Pete-zza]

LOL...

Lydia,

I don't have a problem with a 6-hour cold fermentation of Steve's quick and easy dough. It's no longer "quick" but putting it in the refrigerator for 6 hours and letting it warm up for 2 hours will give the dough about 8 hours under its belt and have a chance to develop better flavor and aroma and color in the crust. And maybe a slightly better texture. The major drawback of all few-hours doughs is that it is hard to get a lot of crust flavor in 2 or 3 hours and it is hard to get the same texture as a long fermentation will provide. You might find that reducing the yeast and using 4-5 hours of room temperature fermentation may get you to the same place biochemically as with the 8 hours with your dough. Lowering the amount of yeast would restrain the rate of fermentation, and the room-temperature fermentation would allow the enzymes to do their jobs much better since they work better at warm temperatures than cold temperatures. The benefit of refrigeration is that it gives you better control over when you will use the dough.

Peter

[billneild]

Will the spiral hook fit on a KitchenAid that came with a C hook?

Bill

[briterian]

Latest Report:

I tried Steve's recipe last night on my wife. I was very excited.  I used the original recipe of 2 hrs. I used the modified hearthkit oven (home depot quarry tiles) and my instant read thermometer shows 560 to 580 and all looked great after 7 minute cooking time.   The pizza turned out looking very nice but the overall flavor was just just OK (aka: bland).

My wife was eating the crust by itself and commented that there was just no flavor.  I've tried longer fermentations and often get the same bland results when I only use the big four:  KASL flour, water, yeast and salt.  So I guess I need to ask if they know of any recipes online that provide more crust flavor?

[Jack]

Will the spiral hook fit on a KitchenAid that came with a C hook?

Bill

I recall reading on this site that KA prefers that you don't use the spiral hook on mixers that came with C hooks, but calling KA would better insure the correct answer.

Jack

[Lydia]

Before I bought my new KA, I asked Kitchen Aid about this, thinking that it would be cheaper way to get better performance.


You can get them to fit

But

You can't use it on the models that came with the C-hook. These mixers were not designed to handle the upward stress caused fom the spiral's ability to work through and knead the dough.  Tests showed that forces pushed the shaft or part of it into the planetary housing, thus destroying your mixer.


There is a "retaining" washer that has been added to the vertical shaft of the Pro 600. This prevents the shaft from being pushed upwards by the greatly increased force of the spiral hook.


The following link is to a thread discussing possible modifications that would allow the use of a spiral hook on the C-hook models.

http://forum.kitchenaid.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3098&whichpage=1

[billneild]

I guess I'll just struggle with the C hook when I use the KA.

[billneild]

Briterian - There was just a post today(?) by Pete regarding the benefits of baking at a LOWER temp.  The thought was that it brought out more flavor.  He was quoting from Lehmann.  Apparently, for most NY style pizzas high heat is related to production speed more than quality.  You might try baking at 450 - 500.  Also, the few times I have used only the big four my wife and I have not been impressed with the flavor.  I always add extra virgin olive oil to the party.  Even a teaspoon or so adds quite a bit in the flavor arena.  I generally go with about a TB for a 15 inch pie.

Bill

[Pete-zza]

Bill,

The post was today, at Reply 2, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3269.msg27706.html#msg27706. Tom's comments on this topic were primarily with respect to commercial deck ovens and conveyor ovens, and especially with respect to conveyor ovens whose speed can be more easily controlled. However, as you know, there are also stone hearth ovens that operate in excess of 700-800 degrees F and can turn out a pie in only a few minutes. That's a somewhat different pie than the Lehmann NY street style pie, and Tom readily acknowledges the use of high bake temperatures for such ovens.

I know from personal experience that a longer bake at lower temperature produces a drier, crispier crust with more flavor. It was very noticeable when I made my take-and-bake versions of the Lehmann dough and baked them in the oven, on the middle rack, at 425 degrees F, for about 13-15 minutes. They were on parchment paper only.

Interestingly, when Tom Lehmann recommends use of a pizza stone in a home oven, he suggests an oven temperature of about 450-470 degrees F. In most cases, that would necessitate a longer bake time. It might be worth trying that with Steve's quick and easy dough to see if it helps produce more crust flavor.

Peter

[Jack]

Briterian - There was just a post today(?) by Pete regarding the benefits of baking at a LOWER temp.  The thought was that it brought out more flavor.  He was quoting from Lehmann.  Apparently, for most NY style pizzas high heat is related to production speed more than quality.  You might try baking at 450 - 500.  Also, the few times I have used only the big four my wife and I have not been impressed with the flavor.  I always add extra virgin olive oil to the party.  Even a teaspoon or so adds quite a bit in the flavor arena.  I generally go with about a TB for a 15 inch pie.

Bill

I always cook my NY style at 475°F.  I grew up there and 475°F can be used to make a very nice pie.  It takes 8-10 minutes depending on your hydration level.  I'm still playing around between 60 and 63%.

While I believe Bill is referring to EVOO in the dough, a Teaspoon of EVOO dribbled on the pie too, just before it goes in the oven helps too, unless you are using some high fat (hard - like Provolone) cheese, then it can be too oily.

Jack

[briterian]

Good points. I think I'm going to increase the salt from 3/4 teaspoon to 1 teaspoon and then add a big ole tablespoon of extra virgin olive oil in the dough during initial mixing (or do I do it when I add the yeast/salt?). I know many posts say not to use EVOO but I think I'm trying to impart more flavor.  I will also drizzle another tablespoon over the pile before I apply the sauce.

One thing I don't want to change is the hydration level at 69% - even though it's scary to get it off the paddle, I think it's key - especially under an increased cooking time.

I will reduce cooking temp to 475 and cook longer.  My wife really liked the extra crisp when I put her slice back in for about a minute after I sliced it, so I might try to mimic that with a 2-3 min par-bake before hand with just olive oil on the crust.

I'll report back results soon.