Author Topic: Steve's quick & easy NY pie  (Read 40486 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2006, 05:49:19 PM »
LOL...

Lydia,

I don't have a problem with a 6-hour cold fermentation of Steve's quick and easy dough. It's no longer "quick" but putting it in the refrigerator for 6 hours and letting it warm up for 2 hours will give the dough about 8 hours under its belt and have a chance to develop better flavor and aroma and color in the crust. And maybe a slightly better texture. The major drawback of all few-hours doughs is that it is hard to get a lot of crust flavor in 2 or 3 hours and it is hard to get the same texture as a long fermentation will provide. You might find that reducing the yeast and using 4-5 hours of room temperature fermentation may get you to the same place biochemically as with the 8 hours with your dough. Lowering the amount of yeast would restrain the rate of fermentation, and the room-temperature fermentation would allow the enzymes to do their jobs much better since they work better at warm temperatures than cold temperatures. The benefit of refrigeration is that it gives you better control over when you will use the dough.

Peter


Offline billneild

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2006, 09:52:33 AM »
Will the spiral hook fit on a KitchenAid that came with a C hook?

Bill

Offline briterian

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2006, 01:45:09 PM »
Latest Report:

I tried Steve's recipe last night on my wife. I was very excited.  I used the original recipe of 2 hrs. I used the modified hearthkit oven (home depot quarry tiles) and my instant read thermometer shows 560 to 580 and all looked great after 7 minute cooking time.   The pizza turned out looking very nice but the overall flavor was just just OK (aka: bland).

My wife was eating the crust by itself and commented that there was just no flavor.  I've tried longer fermentations and often get the same bland results when I only use the big four:  KASL flour, water, yeast and salt.  So I guess I need to ask if they know of any recipes online that provide more crust flavor?

Offline Jack

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2006, 02:05:09 PM »
Will the spiral hook fit on a KitchenAid that came with a C hook?

Bill

I recall reading on this site that KA prefers that you don't use the spiral hook on mixers that came with C hooks, but calling KA would better insure the correct answer.

Jack

Offline Lydia

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2006, 02:13:40 PM »
Before I bought my new KA, I asked Kitchen Aid about this, thinking that it would be cheaper way to get better performance.


You can get them to fit

But

You can't use it on the models that came with the C-hook. These mixers were not designed to handle the upward stress caused fom the spiral's ability to work through and knead the dough.  Tests showed that forces pushed the shaft or part of it into the planetary housing, thus destroying your mixer.


There is a "retaining" washer that has been added to the vertical shaft of the Pro 600. This prevents the shaft from being pushed upwards by the greatly increased force of the spiral hook.


The following link is to a thread discussing possible modifications that would allow the use of a spiral hook on the C-hook models.

http://forum.kitchenaid.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3098&whichpage=1
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Offline billneild

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2006, 02:33:30 PM »
I guess I'll just struggle with the C hook when I use the KA.

Offline billneild

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2006, 02:53:25 PM »
Briterian - There was just a post today(?) by Pete regarding the benefits of baking at a LOWER temp.  The thought was that it brought out more flavor.  He was quoting from Lehmann.  Apparently, for most NY style pizzas high heat is related to production speed more than quality.  You might try baking at 450 - 500.  Also, the few times I have used only the big four my wife and I have not been impressed with the flavor.  I always add extra virgin olive oil to the party.  Even a teaspoon or so adds quite a bit in the flavor arena.  I generally go with about a TB for a 15 inch pie.

Bill

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2006, 04:01:22 PM »
Bill,

The post was today, at Reply 2, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3269.msg27706.html#msg27706. Tom's comments on this topic were primarily with respect to commercial deck ovens and conveyor ovens, and especially with respect to conveyor ovens whose speed can be more easily controlled. However, as you know, there are also stone hearth ovens that operate in excess of 700-800 degrees F and can turn out a pie in only a few minutes. That's a somewhat different pie than the Lehmann NY street style pie, and Tom readily acknowledges the use of high bake temperatures for such ovens.

I know from personal experience that a longer bake at lower temperature produces a drier, crispier crust with more flavor. It was very noticeable when I made my take-and-bake versions of the Lehmann dough and baked them in the oven, on the middle rack, at 425 degrees F, for about 13-15 minutes. They were on parchment paper only.

Interestingly, when Tom Lehmann recommends use of a pizza stone in a home oven, he suggests an oven temperature of about 450-470 degrees F. In most cases, that would necessitate a longer bake time. It might be worth trying that with Steve's quick and easy dough to see if it helps produce more crust flavor.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 04:03:05 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Jack

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2006, 04:14:32 PM »
Briterian - There was just a post today(?) by Pete regarding the benefits of baking at a LOWER temp.  The thought was that it brought out more flavor.  He was quoting from Lehmann.  Apparently, for most NY style pizzas high heat is related to production speed more than quality.  You might try baking at 450 - 500.  Also, the few times I have used only the big four my wife and I have not been impressed with the flavor.  I always add extra virgin olive oil to the party.  Even a teaspoon or so adds quite a bit in the flavor arena.  I generally go with about a TB for a 15 inch pie.

Bill

I always cook my NY style at 475°F.  I grew up there and 475°F can be used to make a very nice pie.  It takes 8-10 minutes depending on your hydration level.  I'm still playing around between 60 and 63%.

While I believe Bill is referring to EVOO in the dough, a Teaspoon of EVOO dribbled on the pie too, just before it goes in the oven helps too, unless you are using some high fat (hard - like Provolone) cheese, then it can be too oily.

Jack


Offline briterian

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2006, 09:45:59 PM »
Good points. I think I'm going to increase the salt from 3/4 teaspoon to 1 teaspoon and then add a big ole tablespoon of extra virgin olive oil in the dough during initial mixing (or do I do it when I add the yeast/salt?). I know many posts say not to use EVOO but I think I'm trying to impart more flavor.  I will also drizzle another tablespoon over the pile before I apply the sauce.

One thing I don't want to change is the hydration level at 69% - even though it's scary to get it off the paddle, I think it's key - especially under an increased cooking time.

I will reduce cooking temp to 475 and cook longer.  My wife really liked the extra crisp when I put her slice back in for about a minute after I sliced it, so I might try to mimic that with a 2-3 min par-bake before hand with just olive oil on the crust.

I'll report back results soon.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2006, 10:11:23 PM »
briterian,

I like EVOO too, and would use it in Steve's quick and easy dough recipe to get a bit more flavor in the finished crust. I would add the oil after the salt and yeast. Otherwise, it may impede the hydration of the flour. A tablespoon of oil will increase the "wetness" of the dough and its ultimate extensibility, so you may want to keep that in mind as you make the dough. It may necessitate a bit more flour to compensate for the added "wetness" from using the oil.

I'll be interested in your results using the lower bake temperature and longer bake time. I think the pre-bake may help achieve a crispier crust, but because of the large amount of yeast used, you may experience bubbling in the crust during the pre-bake. You can dock the dough, or watch the dough during the pre-bake and pierce any big bubbles that develop. When I pre-bake a crust, I remove it from the oven as soon as it sets up and is firm. Otherwise, it can become cracker-like by the time the cheeses and toppings are finished baking after the pre-bake.

Peter


Offline Jack

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2006, 10:23:29 AM »
I know many posts say not to use EVOO but I think I'm trying to impart more flavor.  I will also drizzle another tablespoon over the pile before I apply the sauce.

I use EVOO and you can definitely taste it in my crust, but we love EVOO, frequently dipping bread into garlic and herb infused oil with dinner.  It goes in right before the final kneading. 

I only drizzle EVOO directly on the dough when I make a white (tomatoless pie).  Normally, I drizzle it directly over the cheese, right before I slide the pie into the oven.  I use about a teaspoon on a 14 inch pie, but remember, hard cheeses will add oils on their own.

jack

Offline billneild

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2006, 02:32:10 PM »
If you're already at 69% hydration you might want to cut back 1 or 2 % if you add that much oil.  My pies are at 63% hydration and they seem pretty wet after I add and knead the oil.  I'd be worried that the dough might be unworkable, but Pete may have some input on that.  I usually do what Jack does, just before the pie goes in the oven I will drizzle a little over the pie.

Bill

Offline briterian

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2006, 07:17:43 AM »
If I add 2 tsp of EVOO to Steve's recipe, I'll remove 2-3 tsp of H20 from the recipe.  Pete, I'm also not going to par-bake after reading your thoughts. Since I am cooking it longer at  a lower temp, it's probably not necessary and could lead to unnecessary drying.  As a good engineer, I should always tell me myself to avoid changing too many variables at once or else you lead yourself to not knowing what worked/didn't work.    :D


Offline enob

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2006, 11:16:58 PM »
enob,

I'd be curious to know how the second pizza comes out. Did the dough rise at any time while in the refrigerator? And how much fresh yeast did you use and how did you measure it out?

Thanks.

Peter

Pete:

I used your suggestion for the fresh yeast which worked out well for the same day 3 hour rise but interesting enough the second dough a cold rise(well it never rised) at least in the refrig even after 4 days but i took it out and left on the counter and it rised nicely after 2 hours. I'm gonna try this again but this time with IDY.

Thanks for your help

Mike

Offline briterian

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #65 on: June 30, 2006, 08:29:08 AM »
Off the wall question;

Is quick-rise yeast the same as instant dry yeast?  At the store, I see both quick-rise/quick acting yeast and active dry yeast but nothing called 'instant dry yeast.'  If they are truly the same - might be a nice thing to add to the glossary under IDY term.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2006, 08:57:26 AM by briterian »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2006, 08:52:28 AM »
briterian,

I have been waiting for someone to ask that precise question. I, too, have noted that the term "instant dry yeast" is not used for supermarket brands of yeast, and I look at every yeast section of all the supermarkets I patronize. Apparently, the term "instant dry yeast" is reserved for yeast sold only to professional bakers, usually in 1-lb. bags. However, the yeast sold in supermarkets as bread machine yeast is instant dry yeast. You will usually see it in small bottles.

The Rapid-Rise yeast is a fast-acting yeast from Fleischmann's that is for all intents and purposes an instant dry yeast. However, it is not identical to the instant dry yeast sold to professional bakers, or so I was told when I once communicated with Fleischmann's on that point (it took me several e-mails to get that admission). The Rapid-Rise yeast is intended for home consumers, usually for fast-rise applications over a period of an hour or two. My best advice is to get a 1-lb. bag of IDY, but I would use the Rapid-Rise yeast as you would IDY if you don't have another option. If the SAF "Gourmet Perfect Rise" yeast is available at your supermarket, you can use that also. It is a special breed of yeast that is intended to be used wherever active dry yeast, instant dry yeast, or bread machine yeast is called for in recipes. I have used it and it works fine.

Peter



Offline billneild

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2006, 10:09:50 AM »
Pete - When I was looking for IDY I called my local megamart and after 3 transfers they said they had IDY and told me where it was.  Curiously it was not with the Rapid Rise packets.  It was closer to the flour.  It was also something like 25 times more costly than ordering a one pound bag mail order.  Question, IDY is so convenient, no warm water blooming, are you saying you can use the ADY yeast in the same way?  I remember my bread machine instructions called for simply tossing the packet contents in with everything else.  Also, I saw or heard somewhere that the IDY has more live cultures than ADY.

Bill

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2006, 11:01:46 AM »
Bill,

No, I am not saying that active dry yeast (ADY) can be used the same way as IDY. I have read of instances where bakers have simply added the ADY to the flour, perhaps to delay the activation of the yeast, but that is not the way it is recommended to be used by the yeast producers themselves. For normal applications, the ADY should be rehydrated in warm water, at the proper temperature and for the proper time (no more than 15-20 minutes). The way that Tom Lehmann puts it is as follows:

ADY must be hydrated in warm water (100 to 105F) before it can be added to the dough ingredients in the bowl. This is a potential problem area as we have found that very few people actually measure the temperature of the water and water that is either too hot or too cold by as little as 5F can and will adversely affect the yeast activity.

What I have started doing when hydrating ADY is to use the temperature probe that came with my microwave unit to get the hydrating water at the proper temperature, which I enter at the panel of the microwave unit. As soon as the entered temperature is reached (the microwave produces a beep), I double check the water temperature using an instant read thermometer. With my microwave and instant read thermometer, the difference is about a couple degrees.

As for the duration of the hydration, you may find this Lehmann PMQ post of interest: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/bbs/archive7.cgi?read=4317.

You are correct that IDY has more live yeast cells than ADY. That is one of the reasons it is called “instant” dry yeast. The IDY is also of a different strain, with different physical characteristics that allow it to just be added to the flour. For a good tutorial on yeast, you may find this Lehmann article of interest: http://pizzatoday.com/production_articles.shtml?article=NzlzdXBlcjc2c2VjcmV0ODM=.

You are also correct about the way that bread machines are able to use ADY. With my unit, the ADY, or the Fleischmann’s Rapid-Rise yeast, is added to the flour, and kept out of contact with the water. I suspect that the ADY gets sufficient hydration from moisture in the flour during the preheating of all the ingredients during the preheat cycle, which in my machine can be several minutes. Plus, with bread machines, at least mine, there is a lot of heat produced during the usually long knead times associated with bread doughs, which should also help activate the ADY if there is any doubt.

Peter

Offline briterian

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2006, 08:31:28 PM »
So here my family sits eating the last of my modified recipe to Steve's quick and easy NY pie - and we are all very satisfied.  It's turned it out great.

Here is the Briterian's Modified Recipe.

10.7 oz High Gluten Flour
7 1/8 oz of Water (I changed this from Steve's original 7.4 oz)
1 tsp salt (I changed this from Steve's original 3/4 tsp)
3/4 tsp IDY
2 tsp EVOO (this wasn't in Steve's original)

My goal was to add more crust flavor.  I also preheated the oven to 475 instead of Steve's suggested 550 and cooked it for 12 minutes.  The crust turned out great.  Great chew, great moisture. The true test was my son Jonah - 3 1/2 yrs old having two pieces. 

I think I'll be using this for awhile with the only future mod may be up'in the salt to 1 1/4 tsp and using my mixer to make two crusts instead of just one with food processor.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2006, 08:45:46 PM »
briterian,

Thanks for taking the lead on the mini-experiments on Steve's recipe and for posting your results.

If you like the flavor of garlic, next time you might coat the rim of the pizza before baking with a mixture of butter and garlic. Or you can coat the unbaked rim with oil, for a bit more flavor.

If you decide to increase the salt to 1 1/4 t., you may want to keep in mind that that amount comes to about 2.3% (by weight of the flour). The max usually recommended for salt in most doughs is around 2%. It may not matter much for a few hours dough, but I mention it so that you can note whether it has an effect if you decide to use more salt.

Peter

Offline SteveVit

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2006, 10:08:48 PM »
I tried this recipe 4 months ago and I'm still using it! I have changed the amount of flour to make a less hydrated dough mainly because I've had problems with wet dough sticking to my metal peel. I'll also adjust the amount of instant dry yeast depending on a quick or slow rise.

Steve's quick & easy NY pie

10.7 oz. (by weight) high gluten flour
7.4 oz. (by weight) cold water
3/4 tsp. salt
3/4 tsp. instant dry yeast
 
I’ve been using the following to make a less hydrated dough

12 oz. (by weight) high gluten flour 
7.4 oz. (by weight) cold water
3/4 tsp. salt
1/4-3/4 tsp. instant dry yeast (depends on cold or quick rise)

Baked in between 700-800 degrees for about 2 minutes.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2006, 10:19:03 PM by stevevit »
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Offline SteveVit

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #72 on: October 20, 2006, 02:26:41 AM »
Here's another pie using the original recipe.
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Offline David

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #73 on: October 20, 2006, 10:32:38 AM »
That looks much,much better than what I ate at Vic's (Bradley Beach, NJ),and you rate them as Good!
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Offline Jack

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Re: Steve's quick & easy NY pie
« Reply #74 on: October 20, 2006, 10:53:53 AM »
That looks much,much better than what I ate at Vic's (Bradley Beach, NJ),and you rate them as Good!

C'mon on.  At least half to 3/4 of the pizza pictures posted here look better than anything you can buy.

jack


 

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