Author Topic: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...  (Read 3635 times)

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Offline basetwo

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Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« on: March 03, 2006, 03:01:06 PM »
Well, I've got the dough rising after putting it together this morning and will be baking the pizza tonight.  I'll have to stop by the store and get some mozz and provolone to add to my meats.

I figured I had to triple the recipe since all I have is a 16" deep dish PSTK pan from pizzatools.com.  So this is what I ended up doing:

15.4 oz water, room temperature
2 tsp ADY
1 tsp sugar

Added above ingredients together and set aside as I put the dry ingredients together:

38 oz AP flour
2 tsp sugar
3 tsp salt

Mixed these dry ingredients together then added the water mixure from above, stirred it in, then moved to the oils:

6.8 oz Canola
1.2 oz Olive

added these and stirred it in to the mixture, then kneaded by hand for 2 minutes and placed in a large bowl coated with olive oil.  The resulting dough ball was 60.75 ounces.

I'm pretty sure it should be enough for my 16"x1.5" deep dish pan.  I only went with 2 tsp of yeast since I noticed that other recipes had smaller proportions of yeast when scaled up, so it was an educated WAG.  :)

I'm wondering if I should be using my pizza stone in the oven or not when baking deep dish pies. 

Any comments would be appreciated.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2006, 04:21:34 PM »
basetwo,

Can you tell us which buzz recipe you are using?

From your numbers, depending on the thickness of your dough, you may be able to make two 16-inch pizzas using up the entire depth (1 1/2") of your pan. What you may want to do is to weigh the amount of dough that ends up in the pan (you can weigh the pan when empty plus any pan oil, and then with the dough, and subtract the empty pan weight to get the dough weight), and note the final dough thickness. If you end up liking the results, or if you want to change the dough thickness a bit, I may be able to calculate the weights of ingredients for you to use the next time. For your dough weight, I estimated a thickness factor of around 0.115. This is for two pies. Unfortunately, you will have to experiment to get the dough thickness that you think you will like. Fortunately, there is a fairly wide latitude of crust thicknesses that you can use and get satisfying results. I have tried from 0.08-0.15 as thickness factors and I liked all the pies. I thought that 0.15 was too thick, however.

I might mention that the recommended way to proof ADY is to use just a small amount of the total water--maybe a quarter of a cup--at around 100 degrees F, and let the ADY proof for about 10 minutes. The rest of the water ideally should be left cool. There is no need to add sugar to the proofing water, although a small amount won't hurt.

I bake my deep-dish pies without the stone in the oven. That allows the oven to get up to the desired temperature faster.

Peter


Offline basetwo

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Re: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2006, 06:16:08 PM »
I was working from this recipe:

2 cups AP
1 heaping tsp. yeast
.50 cup plus two TBS water (adjust for humidity, age of flour, altitude as necessary)
1 tsp. sugar
1 tsp. Kosher salt
6 TBS (not tsp.) oil (5 canola, 1 extra light olive oil)

Proof yeast with a little sugar in water. Mix flour, salt, and sugar in bowl. Add proofed yeast mixture, then oil, mix with a spoon just until it comes together (about 10 seconds). Transfer to kneading board and shape into a rough ball--it should come together right away. Knead by hand for exactly 2 minutes--it should be a nice, pliable ball of dough.

Since he said this was for a 9" pan, I just figured the surface area of the bottom of a 9" (9^2 * pi) and did the same for the 16" and found that it was a little over 3 times larger in bottom surface area.

Is your thickness factor expressed in inches?  Buzz was talking about rolling it out to about a .25" thick, so you seem to be talking about making it even thinner yet.  If so, then you're calculations for 2 pies would be at half the thickness I thought I was supposed to use, so that makes rough sense.  Hey, I don't mind having 2 pies, although I'll only bake one tonight!

« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 06:18:32 PM by basetwo »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2006, 07:00:19 PM »
basetwo,

That is one of the later versions of buzz's recipe. I tried to reverse-engineer it by converting buzz's volumes to weights, calculating baker's percents, and then making the dough. I reported on my results at Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1585.20.html. That was the pie I referenced earlier where I thought the crust was too thick (although I liked the pie anyway).

The thickness factor is not a measurement in inches. It is a "loading factor" that was derived originally for standard pizzas but I have extended it to deep-dish. Since the dough has to cover all or part of the side of the pan, you have to add the surface area of the bottom of the dish and the area of the side of the pan that will be covered by dough. When I do it, I also adjust for the fact that the dough that covers the bottom of the pan uses up about 1/4" of the side of the pan. I built an Excel spreadsheet to do the calculations. Remember, also, that your pan is 1 1/2" deep whereas I believe buzz's pan is 2" deep.

I'd be curious to know how your dough compares with the one I made. Mine was wet and oily. When I looked at my hydration percent, it was quite a bit lower than the one I calculated for your formulation. Mine was 46.5% and yours looks like it is 40.5%. It looks like you and I don't measure out volumes the same way :).

Peter

Offline basetwo

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Re: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2006, 08:51:50 PM »

I'd be curious to know how your dough compares with the one I made. Mine was wet and oily. When I looked at my hydration percent, it was quite a bit lower than the one I calculated for your formulation. Mine was 46.5% and yours looks like it is 40.5%. It looks like you and I don't measure out volumes the same way :).


Peter,
 The dough weight once in the pan was 39.05 oz.  I think I had enough to put dough over the top, but I didn't. 

We just finished eating the pizza and my wife liked this crust over the cracker-style (DKM) and American (Randy's) style doughs.

I used tomato puree on the top with oregano and parmesan sprinkled on top.  Wy wife also like this sauce approach better than the sauces I've been making lately.  That's due mostly to the fact that she likes the strong tomato taste, something that I'm definitely not crazy about.

Now I just have to figure out what to do with the leftover dough.  :)  I think I need a smaller deep dish pan.

Also, when I go to make this again, I'll add more cheese and meat... really load it up.  With this being my first deep dish, I treated it more like an American Style.

Brian (BaseTwo)
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2006, 09:42:44 PM »
Brian,

Did you take any photos? I was wondering whether the crust turned out thick like mine.

As far as using the leftover dough is concerned, if you go back to the thread I referenced earlier, you will see that buzz's dough can also be used to make a regular (non-deep-dish) thin pizza with a soft crust. It's pretty good, so you may want to give it a try.

I revisited your numbers to be sure that I didn't make any mistakes and ran them through my spreadsheet based on a total dough weight of 39.05 ounces. The baker's percents and ingredient quantities I came up with for the 16-inch, with the dough using up all of the depth of the pan (1 1/2"), are as follows:

100%, Flour (all-purpose), 23.70 oz. (671.30 g.)
40.53%, Water, 9.60 oz. (272.08 g.)
1.11%, Sugar, 0.26 oz. (7.45 g.), 1 7/8 t.
1.55%, Salt, 0.37 oz. (10.41 g.), 1 7/8 t.
0.70%, Active dry yeast (ADY), 0.17 oz. (4.70 g.), 1 1/4 t.
21.05%, Oil (total), 4.98 oz. (141.31 g.), 10 T. (total)
Total dough weight = 39.06 oz. (1107.24 g.)
Brian's "personal" thickness factor (TF) = 0.148
Note: All numbers are for U.S./metric standards of measurement

Using the above numbers may not get you exactly where you want to go, but they should be quite close, especially if you retain the same dough thickness. If you decide that you would rather have the crust thicker or thinner, it is possible to make the changes to the quantities quite easily, especially since the baker's percents remain the same. Of course, if you change the amounts of ingredients from those specified, the baker's percents have to be readjusted.

Peter


Offline basetwo

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Re: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2006, 10:35:09 PM »
Brian,

Did you take any photos? I was wondering whether the crust turned out thick like mine.


Yup!  I'm not sure they'll show you what you are looking for...  I would guess that the crust averaged just under .5".  The very bottom was crunchy.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2006, 11:08:50 PM »
Brian,

Thank you. Since our thickness factors are similar, I thought that the results would be similiar also. Even with similar thickness factors the crust thickness can vary if the dough is rolled out rather than hand fitted, or if the dough is proofed before dressing and baking, or pre-baked, etc.

As I mentioned earlier, I calculate the total surface area covered by dough, which I think is the most accurate approach. But, as you will see from this link, http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/25868, Tom Lehmann uses a simpler approach. He uses pi times radius squared times 0.12389. Using that approach, the amount of dough for a 16-inch would be 3.14 x 8 x 8 x 0.12389 = 24.90 ounces. What isn't said is what the pan depth is, so the actual number could be higher or lower. I believe most commercial deep-dish pans are about 1 1/2 to 2 inches deep. The key point is that once you find the crust thickness you like best (and have noted weights, etc.) you can caculate your own "personal" thickness factor that can thereafter be used with the baker's percents to determine the ingredients for any size pan.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 11:12:39 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline basetwo

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Re: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2006, 02:55:17 PM »
It looks like you and I don't measure out volumes the same way :).


I've been interested in this.  I'm wondering if it's because I'm at about 5400 ft. above sea level.  Less air pressure on a _fluid_ would mean less density, and therefore less weight, for a given volume.  Right?  I've been trying to research this to see what sort of variance I could expect.  I've noticed on several recipes that I seem to have to add more water.  Again, I presume this is because I actually get less water for the same volume measurement.

For the flour, I was simply using a 1 cup measure and didn't bother levelling it or tamping.  I'm using an AP flour from WheatMontanta.com.

Brian

NEW INFO:  According to barometric pressure calculations on changes in altitude, the air pressure at 5400 ft. is only 83% of what it is at sea level.  I'm still trying to find out how much of an effect that would make on water and oils.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 03:56:06 PM by basetwo »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2006, 04:32:53 PM »
Brian,

According to Tom Lehmann, the dough/pizza guru at the American Institute of Baking, there is no reason to change pizza dough formulations until you get to around 7000 feet. A few years ago he used 5000 feet as the number, and I have seen numbers as low as 3500 feet. So, even the experts aren't in complete agreement. When changes are recommended, they usually include lowering the amount of yeast by 10-12% (to compensate for the faster rise of dough at high elevations), and increasing the oven temperature by about 15-25 degrees F and using a shorter bake time so that the dough doesn't dry out too much during baking. Some also recommend using a higher hydration (more water) to compensate for the fact that flours tend to be drier at higher elevations, but I have also seen recommendations that the hydration be decreased to prevent a dough from collapsing because it rose too quickly because of the higher elevation.

I'd be surprised if the differences in our hydration levels was due to altitude-related weight changes. A 5% difference in hydration seems too high to me (I was on the high side), although I will confess that I don't have any experience with high-altitude baking. (Dallas has an elevation below 500 feet.) As a rough test, today I weighed a "cup" of all-purpose flour (Gold Medal). The way I did it was to stir the flour in the flour container to loosen it up, and, using an ordinary kitchen tablespoon, I scooped flour into my 1-cup metal measuring cup (without a lip) to the point of overflowing. I then leveled off the top with the flat back edge of a kitchen knife. I did not tamp the measuring cup on a surface to cause the flour to compact. I got 4.5 ounces. I did this another time and got 4.5 ounces again. Even though your all-purpose flour is a different brand, it might be useful for you to weigh a "cup" of your flour as I did to see if the differences, if any, are material. I might add that when I weigh a "cup" of water in my Pyrex 1-cup glass measuring cup, eyeballing the 1-cup marking at eye level and using the lower meniscus, I usually get 8.1 to 8.2 ounces. That number is much more stable than flour weights, which are subject to far greater variability because of the many ways that people use to measure out volumes of flour.

Peter

« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 04:36:47 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline gottabedapan

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Re: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2006, 01:13:33 AM »
I've been interested in this.  I'm wondering if it's because I'm at about 5400 ft. above sea level.  Less air pressure on a _fluid_ would mean less density, and therefore less weight, for a given volume.  Right?  I've been trying to research this to see what sort of variance I could expect.  I've noticed on several recipes that I seem to have to add more water.  Again, I presume this is because I actually get less water for the same volume measurement.

The difference is more likely due to lower humidity at altitude than to lower density of the water, because the difference in the volume of water owing to the difference in its density is so small as to be negligible.

Here's the math. (Can you tell I'm bored and have waaaay too much time on my hands? ;) )

The hydrostatic equation for a fluid is defined as:

dP = - Dg dz                     Equation 1

where dP is the difference in pressure, D and g are, respectively, the density of air and the acceleration due to gravity at the altitude of the air layer, and the minus sign ensures that pressure decreases when the altitude increases (positive dz). This is the hydrostatic equation for a fluid.

At temperatures and pressures normally present in the troposphere, the behaviour of air closely approximates the behavior of an ideal gas, and therefore can be given as:

PV = RT                          Equation 2

where one mole of air occupies the volume V at pressure P and absolute temperature T, and R is the universal gas constant. The density of air is

D = M/V                          Equation 3

where M is the molecular weight of air. Combining Equation 1 and Equation 3 we get

dP = - (Mg/V)dz                  Equation 4.

Substituting Equation 2 for V in Equation 4 yields:

dP/P = -Mg/RT                    Equation 5.

The acceleration due to gravity ('g') is the sum of two terms: (i) the attractive force per unit mass as given by Newton's universal law of gravitation, and (ii) the "repulsive" centrifugal force caused by the earth's rotation. The latter effect is very small, contributing no more than 0.35% at sea level. The former drops off inversely as the square of the distance from the center of the earth. but even at an altitude of 10,000 meters it is only 0.3% less than its value (g0) at sea level. Therefore, the only factor on the right hand side of Equation 5 that shows a significant variation with altitude is the temperature.

The atmospheric temperature profile in the troposphere (which extends to 11Km above sea level) decreases linearly with altitude to -55° C at the tropopause, at which point it starts to increase because of the solar heating of the stratospheric ozone. The drop in air temperature per unit increase in altitude, i.e. the lapse rate, is B=6.5° K /km.

Below the tropopause, therefore:

T = T0 - Bz                       Equation 6

where T0 is the sea level air temperature and z is the altitude in km. Substituting this into Equation 5,

dP/P = - (Mg/R)/(T0 -Bz)          Equation 7

Integrating both sides from sea level (z=0) to z, we get

P(z)/P0 = [1 - z(B/T0)]^(Mg/BR)   Equation 8.

Using the definition of the standard atmosphere adopted by the International Civil Aviation Organization, we have: M=28.9644 (carbon-12 scale), T0=1° C = 288.1° K, g=g0=9.80665 m/s^2, R=8.314 Joules/gram-mole/deg K, P0=101.325 kPa (1 atmosphere). Substituting into Equation 8 we have, finally,

P(z)/P0 = (1 - 0.02255z)^5.256    Equation 9

Assuming an altitude of 1.5 km (4921'), P(z)/P0 is 0.834.

The bulk modulus of water, B, is 2 x 10^9 pascals so water with volume V will change volume by DV under an additional pressure P by DV/V = P/B.

One atmosphere is defined as 101,325 pascals, or approx. 10^5 pa, so given a pressure difference of .166 (between sea level and 5000'), the difference in the volume of water DV/V works out to .166 x 10^-5 or slightly more than one ten-thousandth of one percent (.000166%).

Offline basetwo

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Re: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2006, 07:19:09 PM »
As a rough test, today I weighed a "cup" of all-purpose flour (Gold Medal). The way I did it was to stir the flour in the flour container to loosen it up, and, using an ordinary kitchen tablespoon, I scooped flour into my 1-cup metal measuring cup (without a lip) to the point of overflowing. I then leveled off the top with the flat back edge of a kitchen knife. I did not tamp the measuring cup on a surface to cause the flour to compact. I got 4.5 ounces. I did this another time and got 4.5 ounces again. Even though your all-purpose flour is a different brand, it might be useful for you to weigh a "cup" of your flour as I did to see if the differences, if any, are material.


With my AP flour, I got 2 different results with 2 different 1 cup measures:

Blue = 4.75 oz.
Black = 4.6 oz.

Neither were metal.  I was surprised by the difference just between two measuring cups.  When I had measured flour for Buzz's recipe as detailed above, I was using the black measuring cup and basically just scooping out the flour, not really bothering to level or anything.  That was one reason I was weighing the flour, so I'd have a reference for next time.  As you indicated, volume measurements aren't very precise.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 08:17:01 PM by basetwo »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2006, 09:14:33 PM »
Brian,

I had noted your comment that you had tripled buzz's recipe. Since buzz's recipe calls for 2 cups of flour, I assumed you used 6. You further indicated that your total flour was 38 ounces. That would translate into 6.33 ounces per cup.

It is well known that different kinds, and even brands, of measuring cups and spoons don't measure exactly the same. That's why weights are favored by bakers. Weights don't vary.

Peter

Offline gottabedapan

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Re: Trying Buzz's deep dish recipe today...
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2006, 10:22:31 PM »
It is well known that different kinds, and even brands, of measuring cups and spoons don't measure exactly the same. That's why weights are favored by bakers. Weights don't vary.

At least, not enough to matter.*

*Other things being equal, an object weighs 0.28% less at the summit of Mt. Everest than it does at sea level, so if you're weighing out a kilo of flour in your beachfront condo for a 63% hydration dough you'll be making at the summit of Everest, don't forget to throw in an extra 2.8g to get the percentages to come out right.  ::)


 

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