Anyone use All Tump 50111?

[scott r]

ABC, this stuff was excellent and not bagle like at all.   I only had enough for two batches of dough, but they were both spot on for NY style pizza with the right flavor, consistency, and coloration. I didn't have time to do an A/B comparison with KASL but from those two batches I know they are definitely similar (high) quality flours.

The sad news is that I got it from one of my favorite pizzerias in town that is unfortunately changing ownership next week.  The owner (who kindly gave me some of his all trumps to try out in my oven) has had the pizzeria for 15 years and is being forced out of his space because of the MASSIVE rent increases in Boston.   His Landlord jacked the rent up to force them out and then offered to buy the busy pizzeria.  What a guy.

I was surprised to find out that this pizzeria makes very authentic NY style pies with sugar in the dough formulation.  I wonder if this is common practice for most NY street style pizzerias.

[Pete-zza]

scott,

I am always looking at and analyzing NY style dough recipes and I have come to the conclusion that most NY style doughs include some sugar. The Lehmann dough formulation is one of the few that doesn't call for sugar unless the dough is to be held for beyond a couple of days. The reason for this is that the Lehmann dough is intended to be baked primarily in a deck oven and the sugar can lead to premature browning of the bottom crust if baked directly on the stone surface. Since the dough is also cold fermented for one or more days, by the time the dough is ready to be used most of the added sugar will have been eaten up by the yeast. As long as you stay below about 4% sugar (by weight of flour), you shouldn't be able to readily detect the sugar after a day or more of cold fermentation. In an "emergency" dough made in a couple hours or so, you will taste the sugar more in the finished crust because there wasn't enough time to metabolize it. For such a dough, I would cut the sugar back quite a bit. Especially for a NY style using a high-protein flour, such as KASL or All Trumps, there shouldn't be a great need under normal circumstances to use sugar to get crust color.

Peter

[abc]

thats the said state of affairs, property value and $.

your reports about AT flour is stunning.  i'll really have to look into getting some now.  i don't know what to do with my 35lbs of KA flour... make bagels?  ha ha... summer though, too hot.

i might order from dutch valley again, but i wouldnt be in a rush as the total tally w/ shipping is about 30bucks... i might ask one of my local pizzerias if i can buy a bag off them.

[scott r]

ABC, I can't say that I want you to run out to buy all trumps and throw away all your KASL.  If there is anything I have learned from my pizza adventures it is that two batches of excellent dough do not mean a thing.  I might have just been having really good luck for other reasons.

I also have to add that I am definitely able to make excellent NY style pies with the KASL, and often times the crusts are not bagel like at all. I think I have mentioned it before but try one or all of the following- a wetter dough, less kneading, and longer proofing with the KASL.  That may get you closer to what you are looking for.   It could be that the bromate that is added to the all trumps I tried does make the dough a little more puffy and manageable (pete-zza is that what bromate does?).  Still, remember that bromate is thought to possibly be carcinogenic, and I would prefer to spend some time perfecting my mixing/proofing etc. to get a superior product out of the KASL than just using the bromated all trumps.

The next quest will definitely be to get some non bromated all trumps and compare. 


This weekend I made 550 degree pizzas in a normal home oven with a 50/50 blend of KASL and General Mills Full Strength flour.  The Full Strength is similar to All trumps, but with less protein.  My friends and family said that it was not only the best (normal oven temp) pizza I have ever made, but everyone but my wife said that it was the best pizza they have ever eaten. Now that makes you feel good!  The crust was crispy, but melted in your mouth in the middle. These pies actually made me second guess my belief that a high temp oven is a necessity for the ultimate crust.   It was an unusual recipe that I was trying out, and I plan to keep experimenting with that one and eventually reporting the recipe to the forum. This dough was very wet, and also was taken to the extremes of fermentation.  I think that if I had let the dough go another hour it would have been impossible to shake off of the peel.  It was fermented for 8 hours at room temp, then in the fridge for 24 hours.

Luckily right before we were about to finish off the last pie I thought to snap a few photos.  I will include a pic of the crumb from both sides of the slices.

[Pete-zza]

scott,

As you will note from the definition of "potassium bromate" in the Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P, the bromate does have the effect of keeping the dough in a risen state. I have seen instances where bakers switched from a bromated flour to a non-bromated flour and complained about the dough not staying risen as long as with the bromated flour. One instance in particular that I recall was a complaint from a baker who made a Sicilian dough, which requires a good rise. I will be interested in the results you get should you get and try the non-bromated All Trumps.

I would estimate that your dough was the equivalent of about 3 days--possibly more--of normal cold fermentation if you used normal amounts of yeast. But the results look terrific. I'd be curious to know which of your pizzas Kim has felt was your very best.

Peter

[dinks]

PETER:
   Good morning to you. The reason Mr. Lehman does not employ SUGAR in his recipes is "THAT IT IS NOT A REQUIREMENT ."
In a yeasted lean bread dough. It is only a option.... & a poor one at that. It is acceptable to employ sugar if the dough is to be frozen because sugar prompts the somewhat disabled yeast to  "GIDDY-YAP GET GOING".  (THATS TEXAS TALK). while it defrosts.
 I rather use a slight amount of honey. Good luck & enjoy the rest of the day Peter.

   ~DINKS.

[Pete-zza]

DINKS,

What you say is correct, and that is one of the reasons why sugar is optional in the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation as he devised it. If I recall correctly, member pizzanapoletana (Marco) indicated that under normal circumstances it would take an enormous amount of yeast (around 5% or so by weight of flour) to be able to exhaust the simple sugars in a dough, which I take as a confirmation of the point you made.

Tom Lehmann goes to great lengths to get pizza operators to eschew the use of sugar (as well as eggs and milk products) in the dough when the dough is to be baked in a deck or hearth-style oven. However, apart from flavor/sweetness preferences, I can recall four instances where he will accept sugar in the dough: 1) When the pizza is put on a pizza screen before going onto the stone surface (with the option to "deck" the pizza directly on the stone at the end of the bake to get better bottom crust browning); 2) When the dough (cold fermented) is to be held over for more that 2-3 days before using; 3) When the pizza is to be baked on a screen alone with a proper oven configuration; and 4) When the pizza is to be baked in a conventional home oven. It is reason 4 that always interested me and, as best I can determine, Tom allows for the use of sugar in that application because he thinks that standard home ovens don't generate sufficient BTUs to pose a problem. Unless a dough recipe I am trying out calls for sugar and the fermentation time is fairly long, I don't personally use sugar if the dough is to be baked directly on a stone or tiles. I think Tom underestimates the temperatures that many of our members are able to get or create in their home ovens.

Thanks for helping us better understand some of the fine points of dough making. I always look forward to your learned posts, my friend.

Peter

[abc]

ABC, I can't say that I want you to run out to buy all trumps and throw away all your KASL.  If there is anything I have learned from my pizza adventures it is that two batches of excellent dough do not mean a thing.  I might have just been having really good luck for other reasons.

ahh too late... I already ordered it...and Pete's info about the bromate sounds interesting...  i just have to see for myself about AT flour.  i can use the KASL for other things.

oh btw thanks for the pics they look very very good...  Did you parbake?

[scott r]

No ABC, there was no par bake.  Just a normal 550 degree bake with a stone on the bottom of the oven.
Do me a favor and report back with comparative tests between the KASL and the all trumps.  THANKS!!!

Peter, Kims favorites are the pizza we had in Naples and the pies that I make to try to replicate that pizza in my home oven.  They are the recipes we talked about when you were doing your recent Di Fara clones, and that you had while visiting Boston.

[abc]

scott,

As you will note from the definition of "potassium bromate" in the Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P, the bromate does have the effect of keeping the dough in a risen state. I have seen instances where bakers switched from a bromated flour to a non-bromated flour and complained about the dough not staying risen as long as with the bromated flour. One instance in particular that I recall was a complaint from a baker who made a Sicilian dough, which requires a good rise. I will be interested in the results you get should you get and try the non-bromated All Trumps.

I would estimate that your dough was the equivalent of about 3 days--possibly more--of normal cold fermentation if you used normal amounts of yeast. But the results look terrific. I'd be curious to know which of your pizzas Kim has felt was your very best.

Peter

i got the bromated bleached high gluten flour from dutchvalley, or should i say ordered.  i presume the pizzerias get the bleached one as well.

[Pete-zza]

abc,

Out of curiosity, was there a particular reason why you went with Dutch Valley rather than someone who may be closer to you, such as chefswarehouse.com, Dairyland or maybe even PennMac?

Peter

[abc]

abc,

Out of curiosity, was there a particular reason why you went with Dutch Valley rather than someone who may be closer to you, such as chefswarehouse.com, Dairyland or maybe even PennMac?

Peter

DV i've ordered before, and they seem straight forward (not that others aren't) but chefs wants 26.50 to ship, though the flour was only 16.50 vs. DV at around $19.+ today. and shipping was 'only' around $14+ at DV, adding a 5 lb bag of sesame seeds for only $1+ more shipping total.  I'll be recving it thurs.

pennmac?  no way.  two #7 grande blocks are already $13+ shipping... about $52+ total...   a 50lb bag of flour would be very expensive from them.

the last factor was time and time of year... i didn't feel like popping into a pizzerias to find and then to lug home a 50 lb bag when my feeling is that it won't be $13 bucks but like $20-25 bucks they'd charge me.  I may do so in the future.

[abc]

I also have to add that I am definitely able to make excellent NY style pies with the KASL, and often times the crusts are not bagel like at all. I think I have mentioned it before but try one or all of the following- a wetter dough, less kneading, and longer proofing with the KASL.  That may get you closer to what you are looking for.   It could be that the bromate that is added to the all trumps I tried does make the dough a little more puffy and manageable (pete-zza is that what bromate does?).  Still, remember that bromate is thought to possibly be carcinogenic, and I would prefer to spend some time perfecting my mixing/proofing etc. to get a superior product out of the KASL than just using the bromated all trumps.

The next quest will definitely be to get some non bromated all trumps and compare. 

though i already just commented on another thread about bromate, thought i'd do so here as well... for many years when i began my pizza endeavours i wondered why my risen dough felt 'hollow' compared to commerical dough.  during various 'milestones' in my learning, things improved from changing flours, to using a mixer, to mixing techniques...  things reached a plateau for a while after working with high gluten flour... but bromated gluten flour... this will be interesting when i recv my delivery 

i do wonder if bromated dough also has more oven spring?

[abc]

i actually walked into a pizza place i hadn't tried before.  while my 2 slices were heating, i talked to the worker there because they had a huge framed Grande poster.

he's got some pre cut? mix of Grande + Margerita...  not sure what this is about.  he couldn't sell me any more, he said when the distributor comes...

$3.04 a pound.  Okay price... better than my 3.70 from pennmac, but that's all Grande.  Maybe the distributor will have whole grande...   I'll be finding out.

[abc]

No ABC, there was no par bake.  Just a normal 550 degree bake with a stone on the bottom of the oven.
Do me a favor and report back with comparative tests between the KASL and the all trumps.  THANKS!!!

Peter, Kims favorites are the pizza we had in Naples and the pies that I make to try to replicate that pizza in my home oven.  They are the recipes we talked about when you were doing your recent Di Fara clones, and that you had while visiting Boston.

are we kidding?  ALL TRUMPS is ALL THAT.  I made 6 pies in one day with AT, 3 day fridge maturization... i'm gonna try 2 days and maybe a bit less hydration from my 63% because it was getting too 'friendly' with my pizza screen...

the AT pie seemed like it could bake and bake and bake at my 550degrees yet remain baby bottom soft and delicate on the top crust, but thinly crisp, very thinly crisp... and the innards.... sooo creamy!...  the KASL is a more pronounced crunch, becoming bagely, and definitely not creamy.  creamy... who would have thought for a dough?

my eaters felt it was soo damn good.  and these are people that don't know what flour I used, and don't usually eat my pizza, but do alot of store pizza eating.

I really don't think i'll do KASL for NY Pizza any more.

I got more oven spring too.  Gotta be that bromated flour.

[abc]

This weekend I made 550 degree pizzas in a normal home oven with a 50/50 blend of KASL and General Mills Full Strength flour.  The Full Strength is similar to All trumps, but with less protein.  My friends and family said that it was not only the best (normal oven temp) pizza I have ever made, but everyone but my wife said that it was the best pizza they have ever eaten. Now that makes you feel good!  The crust was crispy, but melted in your mouth in the middle. These pies actually made me second guess my belief that a high temp oven is a necessity for the ultimate crust.   It was an unusual recipe that I was trying out, and I plan to keep experimenting with that one and eventually reporting the recipe to the forum. This dough was very wet, and also was taken to the extremes of fermentation.  I think that if I had let the dough go another hour it would have been impossible to shake off of the peel.  It was fermented for 8 hours at room temp, then in the fridge for 24 hours.

Luckily right before we were about to finish off the last pie I thought to snap a few photos.  I will include a pic of the crumb from both sides of the slices.

I too will do a 50/50 blend after I make AT pizzas a 2nd time.

What I'm currently curious is to determine if the 50/50 blend will give the pizzas a more pronounced crackle than my AT pizzas did...
or was it the 3 day fridge maturation that made my first try with AT pies so delicate afterall.