Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 572145 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1150 on: June 05, 2015, 08:05:08 PM »
sisterpat,

To be sure I understand, did you use only volume measurements? If you used volume measurements for the flour and water, can you tell me exactly how you measured out the flour and water volumetrically? And did you measure the finished dough temperature?

The recipe you used is the one posted on the forum at http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php.

Peter


Offline sisterpat

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1151 on: June 05, 2015, 08:31:52 PM »
Thanks, Pete.  I measured volume with a measuring cup for water and a dry measuring cup for flour.  I do not know how to measure the final dough temp.

Offline jvp123

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1152 on: June 05, 2015, 08:47:37 PM »
Thanks, Pete.  I measured volume with a measuring cup for water and a dry measuring cup for flour.  I do not know how to measure the final dough temp.

I think it might be helpful sisterpat (if your finances allow) to purchase a scale or two, a probe thermometer, and a laser thermometer. 

Here are some examples:

http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Weigh-Digital-Back-Lit-Display/dp/B00IZ1YHZK/?tag=pmak-20

http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-AWS-1KG-BLK-Signature-Digital/dp/B002SC3LLS/?tag=pmak-20

http://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Cooking-Essentials-Instant-Thermometer/dp/B00PQY7PUS/?tag=pmak-20

http://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Lasergrip-Temperature-Non-contact-Thermometer/dp/B00837ZGRY/?tag=pmak-20
Jeff

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1153 on: June 05, 2015, 09:14:21 PM »
sisterpat,

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html and did some calculations to come up with the specific Lehmann dough formulation you used, as follows:

King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (63.118%):
IDY (0.49439%):
Salt (1.5209%):
Olive Oil (0.95057%):
Total (166.08386%):
263 g  |  9.28 oz | 0.58 lbs
166 g  |  5.86 oz | 0.37 lbs
1.3 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
4 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.72 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
2.5 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.56 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
436.8 g | 15.41 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = N/A

There are a few reasons I can think of off the top of my head why you may have had poor success with the recipe. At the top of my list is that you used volume measurements for the flour and water. I can think of about a half dozen ways to measure out flour volumetrically and if I were to weigh the flour after method, I would get six different weights. And those weights can be all over the place with wide variations between them. And something as simple as the water can lead to poor outcomes. For example, water is supposed to be measured volumetrically in a cup with the cup being on a flat surface and the markings being viewed at eye level (and technically using the lower meniscus). If the dough in your case was wet coming out of the mixer, that would have been a good sign that you mismeasured the ingredients, most likely because you used volume measurements for the flour and water. I suppose it is also possible that you did not knead the dough long enough to more fully hydrate the flour.

BTW, you will notice that there are no volume conversions in the above dough formulation for the flour and water. It is because there are no reliable volume measurements for those ingredients, for the reasons as noted above.

Another possible reason for your results could have been that your finished dough temperature was on the high side--in excess of 75-80 degrees F (this is for a home setting using a standard home refrigerator, not a commercial one using a more efficient commercial cooler). It the finished dough temperature was too high, the dough may have fermented too fast. So, by the time that you decided to use the dough, it could have been overly fermented. When that happens, the dough is overly extensible (stretchy) and is hard to handle without the dough getting away from you. If you did not follow the instructions for managing the dough in accordance with the dough management measured described in the instructions for the recipe, and you let the dough ferment beyond the intended duration, that also could have resulted in an overly fermented dough because there are protease enzymes in the flour, along with acids produced during fermentation, that act to break down the gluten structure in the dough and cause the water to be released form its bond, resulting in a damaged dough that can be wet and sticky and overly extensible.

My best advice to you is to use a scale to measure out the flour and water. The other ingredients can be measured out volumetrically. And you should follow the dough preparation and dough management steps as closely as possible, including the duration of fermentation. If you use water at around 65-70 degrees F, I think you should be OK from a finished dough temperature standpoint. If you want to measure the finished dough temperature, a simple stick thermometer will do the trick. As I am composing this, I see that Jeff has posted and offered you his suggestions from the equipment side.

As you can see, there is a lot of science behind pizza making, so everything has to be done with a great deal of precision.

Peter

Offline sisterpat

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1154 on: June 05, 2015, 09:24:10 PM »
Pete & Jeff:
Thanks for your input, guys.  Actually, I have that very scale and a probe thermometer (though not the laser which looks very neat).  I never thought to weigh things out.  I made the dough Wednesday morning and refrigerated it until about 3 this afternoon.  Interestingly, Lehman's recipe doesn't list sugar in the ingredients, but does list it in the directions!  Which is correct?  I did add a bit into my dough.  Would that have an effect?
I kneaded with the dough hook for 8 minutes on speed 2.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1155 on: June 05, 2015, 09:29:59 PM »
Pete & Jeff:
Thanks for your input, guys.  Actually, I have that very scale and a probe thermometer (though not the laser which looks very neat).  I never thought to weigh things out.  I made the dough Wednesday morning and refrigerated it until about 3 this afternoon.  Interestingly, Lehman's recipe doesn't list sugar in the ingredients, but does list it in the directions!  Which is correct?  I did add a bit into my dough.  Would that have an effect?
I kneaded with the dough hook for 8 minutes on speed 2.
sisterpat,

The omission of the sugar was an error that was never corrected. You will see the same error in the original recipe as posted in the PMQ Recipe Bank at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/New-York-Style-Pizza-Dough.

Usually Tom suggests that sugar be added to the dough if it is to cold ferment for longer than about three days. Even then, the amount of sugar is only 1-2%. That added sugar ensures that the yeast gets enough food over the entire dough fermentation period. It might also add a bit of residual simple sugars for crust coloration purposes. It is at too low a level to be detected by most people as sweetness on the palate.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1156 on: June 05, 2015, 10:59:23 PM »
sisterpat,

I neglected to mention in my last post that your dough was adequately kneaded. However, when I revisited the dough formulation I posted earlier, I noted that the IDY is at almost 0.50%. That is about double what I would use for a two-or three-day cold fermentation. I suspect that the 0.50% IDY is for a commercial application using a commercial cooler as opposed to a less efficient home refrigerator. It's possible that the 0.50% IDY might have caused the dough to ferment too fast and the sugar might have pushed the dough a bit too far also. But it is also possible that an overly high finished dough temperature and the use of volume measurements for the flour and water contributed to your poor results.

Next time, you might measure out the flour and water using your scale, and you might want to reduce the IDY to about 0.25% for a two-or three-day cold ferment. You can add 1-2% sugar if you want to go out beyond three days. You might try using water at around 65-70 degrees F to see if that gets you into the right finished dough temperature range. Based on your results, you can always make future changes to the water temperature.

Peter


Offline sisterpat

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1157 on: June 05, 2015, 11:02:09 PM »
 :) Thanks, Pete!  I'll give it a try.

Offline pbc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1158 on: August 28, 2015, 07:47:29 PM »
Hi guys,

Newb question. If I wanted to modify the 16" recipe on the first post to make dough for 3 12" pies, how would I go about doing this?

Thx!!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1159 on: August 28, 2015, 09:07:12 PM »
Hi guys,

Newb question. If I wanted to modify the 16" recipe on the first post to make dough for 3 12" pies, how would I go about doing this?

Thx!!
pbc,

The best way would be to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html. However, since that dough calculating tool, as well as the simpler Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough-calculator.html, did not exist at the time of the original post in this thread, I think the better way to proceed is to go back to the original Lehmann NY style dough recipe as given at the PMQ Think Tank at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/New-York-Style-Pizza-Dough and adapt that recipe for your particular purpose while being reasonably consistent with the recipe I originally used with high-gluten flour and a thickness factor of 0.10 (more on this below). So, what you might want to use is this formulation:

High-gluten Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (166%):
Single Ball:
579.45 g  |  20.44 oz | 1.28 lbs
365.06 g  |  12.88 oz | 0.8 lbs
1.45 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
10.14 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.82 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
5.79 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.29 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
961.89 g | 33.93 oz | 2.12 lbs | TF = 0.1
320.63 g | 11.31 oz | 0.71 lbs
Note: Dough is for three 12" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.10 (the same as the original recipe in the opening post of this thread); no bowl residue compensation

While I personally prefer the Lehmann NY style pizza with a thicker crust than most, with a thickness factor of about 0.10 as mentioned above, and while I have had pizzas in NYC with a thickness factor of around 0.09-0.10, most NYC pizza operators, and many of our members, prefer a lower thickness factor. A typical value for them might be around 0.085. Using that thickness factor in the expanded dough calculating tool, we get the following numbers:

High-gluten Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (166%):
Single Ball:
492.54 g  |  17.37 oz | 1.09 lbs
310.3 g  |  10.95 oz | 0.68 lbs
1.23 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
8.62 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
4.93 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
817.61 g | 28.84 oz | 1.8 lbs | TF = 0.085
272.54 g | 9.61 oz | 0.6 lbs
Note: Dough is for three 12" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.085; no bowl residue compensation

As you can see, the advantage of the dough calculating tools is that you can pretty much modify a given recipe at will to do pretty much whatever you want. Of course, you will need a good scale to weigh the flour and water since their weights are critical to the success of the recipes. You can use the volume measurements for the rest of the ingredients. You can also use the dough calculating tools to add a bowl residue compensation of about 1.5% to compensate for minor dough losses incurred during its preparation. However, you will want to scale the dough balls weights to the specified values as noted in the above formulations.

Peter

Offline pbc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1160 on: August 29, 2015, 07:55:01 AM »
Thanks Pete, will these recipes hold up for more than 24 hours of cold ferment? Noticed in the first post you mentioned keeping them in the fridge for exactly 24.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1161 on: August 29, 2015, 08:19:19 AM »
Thanks Pete, will these recipes hold up for more than 24 hours of cold ferment? Noticed in the first post you mentioned keeping them in the fridge for exactly 24.
pbc,

Yes. I think the dough will hold up for a couple or maybe three days of cold fermentation.

Peter


 

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