Author Topic: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour  (Read 3460 times)

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Offline mililani

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Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« on: August 18, 2013, 03:33:45 PM »
I just wanted to let people know that, at least in terms of shaping and pliability, Caputo pizzaria flour is much better than bread flour.  When I used to cold ferment my bread flour dough balls, inevitably, the dough balls would start to flatten and enlarge quite drastically, almost filling up the entire tray.  I would never get those beautiful breast-like mounds I would see in all of Tony's pizza shaping videos.  Now that I'm using Caputo pizzaria flour, I'm getting those beautifully shaped and expanded dough balls. 

Can't wait to stretch and shape these dough balls tomorrow.  So far, they're looking beautiful.


Offline thecrensh

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2013, 07:24:03 PM »
How much different is the price for Caputo vs "avg" bread flour?  What about the taste?  I'm new on here and don't know much about pizza dough...

Offline mililani

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2013, 03:08:12 PM »
Ok, here's an update since then.  So, although the dough balls came out great, the dough was still about as hard to work with as avg bread flour.  In fact, a bit more so.  I had a hard time stretching out the dough evenly, and there were some VERY thin spots in the dough.  Oh well.

In terms of taste...hmmm, no difference at all.  My wife, neighbor, and I could not detect one iota of difference in taste.  Not surprising.  Anyways, if you're not interested in spending gob smacks for flour, stick with bread flour.  It's just as good, IMO.

Offline thecrensh

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2013, 06:15:13 PM »
Can I make the assumption that you live on Oahu based on your name?

Offline mililani

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2013, 09:27:26 PM »
Ah, how do you know?  Were you in the military?  No, not anymore.  I grew up on Oahu, and I lived in Mililani.  However, I moved to California when I was 24.  Been here for the past 15 years.

Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2013, 11:28:04 PM »
Mililani, I have been using Caputo for the past few months and I have to disagree with you about the taste. I note a very different flavor in when I use Caputo flour. It gives my pizza a light, very fine texture. It's quite different from my usual strong bread flour (Conagra Mello Judith).  That's my experience anyway. 

Regards,

TinRoof

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2013, 01:29:46 PM »
I use bread flour when baking at 650 deg f and lower, all purpose flour at 700 deg f and a above. I tried. Caputo flour yesterday, it took longer to bake than all purpose flour at 800 deg f
Bert,

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2013, 05:40:45 PM »
Caputo flour yesterday, it took longer to bake than all purpose flour at 800 deg f

It took longer to get color - not necessarily longer to bake.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2013, 05:42:45 PM »
There is not much reason to use Caputo at temps under 850F - and that's 850F above the pie.
Pizza is not bread.

Online mitchjg

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2013, 10:35:42 PM »
There is not much reason to use Caputo at temps under 850F - and that's 850F above the pie.

Craig:

I want to make sure I am interpreting this right.  So, 850 above the pie would correspond to the dome temperature?  And, if that is about right, what do you think of as the minimum floor temperature?

Thanks a lot,
Mitch


Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 01:24:07 PM »
It took longer to get color - not necessarily longer to bake.

That makes it hard for me judge when the pie is done. I will stick to KAAP


Bert,

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2013, 04:17:15 PM »
Craig:

I want to make sure I am interpreting this right.  So, 850 above the pie would correspond to the dome temperature?  And, if that is about right, what do you think of as the minimum floor temperature?

Thanks a lot,
Mitch

I think it more corresponds to the air temperature directly above the pies. The dome will be meaningfully hotter and the deck not much less. Put another way, if you're not baking 90 seconds or less, you may be handicapping yourself with Caputo.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Trestrey

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2013, 04:31:44 PM »
Hi Guys,

Nice thread.  I work on an LBE oven exclusively, and cook my pies around 760 on the stone and generally have the top/lid side a bit hotter.  When I first started out, I was pretty attached to using KASL exclusively, as I had read something somewhere that stated Hi-Gluten flour was the only way to get a "real pie".  Anyway, I eventually began to branch out, and try different flours.  I also evolved/shifted my recipe towards a variation of TXCraig1's (thanks again; ))  I seemed to like characteristics that the Caputo 00 added to my pies... it seemed to make my them lighter/airier in my mind.  I was noticing the doughs were harder to stretch though, and I would more regularly put holes in the window when I was shaping.  This evolved my recipe towards mixing the two flours in a sort of "best of both worlds" approach.  My ratio of 00 to KASL is 3/4 "00" and 1/4 KASL in weight proportions.  I did this to build up the protein factor in the dough, so the gluten network would be stronger, while maintaining whatever it is I like about the Caputo.  My pies come off the LBE consistently in about 2 minutes.

My question is if the experts on here would agree with my logic for mixing these two flours (KASL and OO)?  Is there a fundamental flaw in this approach?  Is it counterproductive?  Should I just use a bread flour that is medium protein instead of mixing two extremes? 

I use a sourdough starter with a tiny pinch of IDY, and do a 12 hr RT bulk proof, 12 hr RT ball proof.  My dough balls get great air bubbles and cook up very nicely.  I am almost always happy with the pies, except in instances when I am trying to salvage older, spent, past prime doughs that I didn't get to use.

Any insight, feedback or suggestions on flour logic are appreciated.  I have learned a ton on here, and while I rarely chime in, I am around all the time.  Thanks to all.  Sorry if I went of thread topic at all.  Craig's "handicap" comment earlier got me paranoid about my approach.

Cheers,

Jim ;)               



Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2013, 05:20:20 PM »
I made a lot of pies on my grill mod (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9614.0.html) at around 750F, and 100% KAAP was what seemed to work best for me. I don't see any reason to spend the money on KASL or Caputo (by which I mean Caputo Pizzeria or Chef's - same thing) . You really don't need the attributes of these flours for 750F baking and as I noted, Caputo may handicap you in making it difficult to achieve browning - and top browning is probably going to be your biggest challenge.

I don't know where the idea came from that you need high gluten flour to make good pizza - IMO, it's simply wrong - at least for Neapolitan pizza. If you want to blend with Caputo for flavor or texture, I'd blend it with KAAP or KABF at most.

All other things being equal, I've found Caputo dough easier to open than KAAP or KABF. If your dough is hard to stretch, maybe move more of your fermentation time into balls. At 24 hours, mine just about open themselves though they are pretty relaxed by 12h.

Why do you add IDY?
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Trestrey

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2013, 05:15:53 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.  I am going to try my process with some KAAP.  I will do some controlled experimentation, and see if I can achieve some improved results.  I would like a little better browning on top.  Its tough, I get caught up in that these special brand flours are what will make the difference in my crust.  Its tough to shake.  In the end, I feel like my sourdough starter is the kicker ingredient that really gives my crusts their own personality. 

To answer your question, I started putting a pinch of IDY in with the sourdough starter early this summer.  I was making dough throughout the late spring for private parties, and I went through a time where they were coming out wetter and kind of lifeless.  I was doing everything the same.  I read about someone adding a tiny amount of IDY in along with the starter, and decided to try it.  It yielded better dough balls, so I kept doing it.  In the end, I attributed the wet, sub-par dough era, early this summer, to high humidity and higher room temp during fermentation.  I had also changed brands of organic whole wheat  flour that I had been using to feed my starter, and think that was a factor. 

Well, I switched back to the old brand, and I am now back on track with quality dough.  I also notched my hydration back a percent to account for the humidity.  I haven't stopped using the "pinch" of IDY in my flour, but am not married to it.  My perception is that it gives the finished pie more of an airy quality.

I will report back with my notes on switching to the KAAP.  Thanks for your response.  Your pie operation is an inspiration to me. 

Cheers,

Jim ;)

Offline Trestrey

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2013, 02:12:05 PM »
Just a quick update on this....  I have done the switch , and have made a few batches of dough now, using the KAAP in place of the Caputo 00, in my recipe from above.  I am still using the KASL in there, (1/4 KASL and 3/4 KAAP by weight) and have noticed a decided improvement to my crusts.  I am getting better browning, a nice subtle crisp on the outside of the crust, with lots of airy chewiness in the inside.  This flour switch really put my final pie over the top.  I am pretty psyched.  With the flour switch, I have also been dialing my LBE in at a little bit lower temp.  I was around 750 before, and am now baking at just under 700.  I will continue to experiment with variations of these flours, but am pretty happy with the improved results.  Thanks again TXCraig!  Solid advice! ;)

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Wow, caputo flour is substantially different than bread flour
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2013, 02:15:04 PM »
Glad to hear it is working for you!
Pizza is not bread.