hand kneading

[skatesillyheart]

Has anyone here been brave (or naive?) enough to venture into hand kneading, and mixing for that matter, an american pizza crust, such as randy's? I love to bake, though i haven't had that much experience with yeast, and would like to venture into the world of pizza making without having to buy a bread machine or stand up mixer. My favorite crusts include Hugry Howie's and Benito's (Detroit). We have many varieties of King Arthur flour here, and i have a pizza stone and a screen, so im equipped aside from the mixer. Any suggestions?

I see that someone managed to keep a mixer out of the equation and he seems pretty experienced - http://www.taunton.com/finecooking/pages/C00002.asp
but his directions are a little vague. Any tips appreciated.

P.S. has anyone tried Bill's traditional crust recipe?
http://www.pizzamaniac.com/index.php/archives/2000/01/01/bills-traditional-pizza-dough/

Thanks!

[chiguy]

 Hi skatesilly,
 Wecolme to the forum.
 
 Sure there are many members that hand knead, you can still produce a very nice dough by hand kneading. A member here DanesDad hand mixed Randys American style recipe here is the link http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2280.0.html
 
 I would like to notefrom the above link, that although i advised him to increase the knead time on the recipe, DanesDad may have gone overboard with a 30min knead time. A 5-10 minute knead time was probably sufficient, it really is more practice and feel when it comes down to hand kneading.   Goodluck, Chiguy

[Danes Dad]

Skates - Chiguy is right about 30 minutes of hand kneading being overkill.  I have since been able to produce great dough with about 10 min of hand kneading.  I think hand kneading can produce a very good dough and once you've done it several times you can really feel when the dough is ready.  For me, when I begin to knead the dough it is very "teary" and tears when pulled and kneaded.  After about 8 minutes the dough smoothes out, stops sticking to my hands, and seems to want to hold itself together rather than stick to the countertop or my hands.  Thats when I know it's ready.  I know its not the most scientific way, but it's been working for me. 

The best recipe for me has been Canadaves NY recipe.  Although, a word of caution when working with Canadaves recipe.  Trying to mix 21 grams of oil into a dough by hand can be daunting at first, but it really does mix in after a minute or two.

In the link that Chiguy references I did try Randy's recipe, but screwed it up (sorry Randy), by adjusting amounts and leaving out honey.  I do plan to go back and try his recipe again.  Actually, this posts comes at a great time as I think i'll mix Randys recipe tonight.  Mix dough tonight and have pizza on Friday.

When I first started making pizza at home with the help of this forum I was hung up on the idea that without a mixer I wouldn't be able to produce good dough.  Thats not correct, as Pete and several others have proved.  I think it just takes practice, a lot of counterspace and a spouse that doesn't mind a light coat of flour over the whole kitchen.  With everything I have learned on this forum the biggest improvement that I have  implemented has been parbaking the crust.  It is the only way I have been able to get good browning on the outer crust without charing the bottom crust and/or cheese.  I don't even use my clay tiles anymore.  I place the naked dough on a mesh pan and parbake for about two minutes then take the dough out finish dressing the pie and put back in, without mesh, for about 5 minutes and turn the broil element on for the last minute.  This is all done on the lower rack of the oven, but not the very bottom rack.

Hope this helps

Danes Dad

[skatesillyheart]

thanks a lot guys! im really glad there are hand kneaders out there. im a really diy kind of person and i love working with food, and i think being able to hand knead would make the outcome more of an organic and home made work of art.  i can understand that if people are making a lot of pizza dough it just would not be economical to hand knead everything but i'd like to have pizza as an occasional treat.

So i can't find Randy's Recipe or Lehmann's recipe but I really liked the results of this recipe:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.0.html

the first pictures look perfect. Is it possible to acheive this crust?
I am frustrated by the fact that this author did not include instructions and I am not sure which of Randy's recipes would give the instructions that he is referring to, because I cannot find his recipe.

Dane's Dad- did you ever end up with a good version of Randy's recipe? I geuss what i want is to find a perfected version of american style pizza with detailed instructions for hand kneading and mixing (mainly due to my lack of experience), but what I will probably need to do is just take the recipe from that link and expirament with it until I find instructions that best suit my own oven, kitchen, refrigerator, and skills. Unfortunately, I am kind of pressed for time and money, and am hesitant about investing a lot of either into a lot of expiramental pizzas, but that is probably what it takes to develop such fantastic results.

I appreciate your guy's help a lot- thank you.

[Pete-zza]

skatesillyheart,

There is no reason why you shouldn’t be able to get the results shown at any of the posts at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.0.html.

As the one who started the above thread, there was a good reason why I didn’t include specific instructions on how to make the dough. At the time I started the thread, and for a time thereafter, Randy’s recipe, along with detailed instructions, was prominently featured on the forum. Hence, there was no reason for me to post the detailed instructions. However, after I started the thread, Randy’s recipe inexplicably disappeared from the forum, which disabled the link to the recipe also. If you look at Reply 5 at the above referenced link, you will see that I noted the “dead” link and, to rescue what I had done to that point, I excerpted language from another thread on which a version of Randy’s deleted recipe, along with associated dough processing instructions, appeared. I also indicated in Reply 5 how I departed from Randy’s recipe.

Since then, various versions of Randy’s American style dough recipe have been found elsewhere on the forum, including at 1) Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1846.0.html, 2) Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1515.0.html, and 3) Reply 19 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1698.0.html. The last citation is a duplicate, but the following posts in that thread discuss some of the processing steps in a bit greater detail.

Although I personally have not done it, I think it is safe to replicate the machine processing steps for Randy’ recipes by hand, following the instructions from any of the recipes. There are two aspects, however, that I think you should pay close attention to, especially if you choose to use high-gluten flour: 1) the degree of hydration (the ratio of water to flour, both by weight), and 2) the length of the rest period called for in the recipes. If you find that the dough is too difficult to knead by hand, you might want to increase the amount of water a bit--just to the point where the dough holds well together and is on the soft side. Also, whereas Randy’s instructions call for a 5-minute rest period, you could try extending that to 20 minutes. Both of these changes may change the results a bit, but I believe they will be minimal. Since you will be kneading by hand, you can’t slavishly follow the mix and knead times mentioned in Randy’s recipes. You will have to work the dough only to the point where the desired finished dough condition is achieved. For baking purposes, I suggest that you use a pizza screen. Pizza screens are inexpensive and work very well with Randy's dough.

As for Lehmann dough recipes, they are hidden in plain sight and can be found at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html. Because of the large number of Lehmann recipes and variations, I even created a roadmap to most of the recipes, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.0.html. If you are new to pizza making, you might also find the following thread of value, even if you plan to knead by hand: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html. 

I hope the above is sufficient to get you headed in the right direction.

Peter

[Danes Dad]

Skates - I did end up with a good version of Randy's recipe.  It was the identical version Randy first explained with two differences 1) it was hand kneaded and 2) I parbaked the crust.  Unfortunately, when I tried to take a picture of the pie my battery died and there was no way I could wait for the battery to recharge before we ate.  I will say if you try the recipe you should try the sausage/pepperoni/pineapple combination as it tastes great together.

As far as parbaking the crust this is simply what works best with my oven.  You should first try the recipe without parbaking.  If you can get good crust coloration without the parbaking then there is no reason for it.

I think the recipe works really well with hand kneading.  My suggestion would be to not overthink hand kneading and don't worry about following any detailed instructions.  My mixing begins in a bowl rather than on the counter.  I have seen hand kneading recipes which begin on the counter, but this is way to scarry for me.  After mixing all ingredients in a bowl with a spoon for about two minutes dump out on your counter.  I save a little flour and coat my hands with it. My process is to push down with my palms on the dough ball then fold the dough over in half and press down again.  Each time I fold the dough in half I turn it a few degrees.  After about 8-9 minutes of doing this the dough really becomes smooth.

I don't think the following picture does justice to the pie (or recipe) as it was taken the next day.  This is the leftover from the night before. I had to take this picture quick as this was going to be my breakfast.  As with all pizza this recipe provides great tasting reheated pizza.

Danes Dad

[skatesillyheart]

Alright. Well this will be hard to do without a picture but I'll attempt anyway. I made Randy's recipe using a scale so we can factor out the possibility of innacurately measured ingredients. I used bread flour instead of high gluten flour because I realized our Meijer didnt have high-gluten flour, and I can't order a 50 pound bag of flour (my mom would have a heart attack ) so that could be a problem. I mixed the yeast with half the flour, added the liquid ingredients in a mixture at 120 degrees, mixed this until it was uniform in texture, and added the rest of the flour until it was sticky and uniform. I let this rest for 5 minutes, and then attempted to hand knead. It wasnt to bad, except for the fact that the dough was a little too sticky for my liking, so I added probably about a half cup of flour while kneading. It took a long time for it to get smooth though, about 18 or 20 minutes. I checked it with the window pane test and it seemed to be smooth enough. I cut this in half, and put the two halves in my fridge. One ball I took out last knight after about 21 hours in the fridge, let it rise for 3 hours, topped it with chopped stewed tomatoes, dried basil, carmalized onions, mozzarella, and olives. I baked this on a pizza stone at some temperature above 515 F (my oven has increments up to 515 and then a "broil" setting so I just put the dial as high as it could go which means the "broil" setting. However it wasn't actually broiling, as the other dial was set to "bake", and the bottom cooked exactly the same as the top. Also, my dad calibrated the oven to be about 25 degrees hotter than the dial reads.) Unfortunately I overbaked it slightly, so I dont know if that was the problem, but the crust was a nice pecan brown when I pulled it out.  To my surprise it didnt really ruin the taste, but added a nice flavor instead.  I geuss i should explain my problem now.  How do I get the thin, chewy, leathery skin on my crust with the tiny bubbles in it like all these pizza making pros and american style pizzarias have got?  I baked another pizza using randy's recipe last week without a scale to measure so the measurements were definately off but every time I made a pizza (after 24 and 48 hour rests) I got the same crunchy, hard skin more reminiscent of a dry breadstick than a pizza crust.  Inside the crust the crumb was pretty good, not the best but sufficient. How do I get a nice chewy and flexible skin like Hugry Howies or Papa Johns?


Sorry I can't use pictures to show you what it looks like but my mom broke my camera.

Thanks so much for your help!

good pizza crust-
http://www.gocrawford.com/pizza/051504a.jpg
http://www.pizzamaniac.com/images//101605a.jpg
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1707.0;id=2215;image

[Randy]

I will do some guessing but I think i can get you closer. 

First it sounds like for sure you are baking the pizza way too long for the temperature oven.  It may be that the broil is coming on.  The cheese should just barely begin to brown having only small specs of brown on a melted white top.

Second the high gluten flour is very important.  You can buy high gluten flour from King Arthur in three bound bags.  I buy fifteen pounds at a time which makes fifteen pizzas.

Third, you may find using a pizza screen like they use at Papa Johns more to your liking and use the middle rack.

Randy
Last nights pizza  Sorry about the picture is was taken in poor lighting

[Randy]

As a side note I have ever been ever  increasing the hydration.  At 62%(not including the water in the tablespoon of honey) the flavor falls off which was a surprise.

Randy

[Pete-zza]

skatesillyheart,

I agree with everything Randy has said. I have not personally tried using bread flour in Randy's recipe (thin version or otherwise), but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. I even made an all-purpose flour version (thin NY style) that turned out better than I expected. My first choice would be high-gluten flour, as Randy usually recommends, but I am happy to know that other flours will also do a good job. You can't do these kinds of things with most recipes.

I think you have to be a bit careful when following someone else's recipe or formulation. The last photo you referenced in your post is a 14-inch "thin" version of Randy's American pie that I made based on Randy's basic recipe. But, even there, I followed Randy's instructions as closely as I could, with essentially the only change being a shorter knead time because of a smaller dough ball size. To replicate Randy's results, I think it is important to use the proper oven temperature and, if possible, to use a pizza screen, as Randy recommends. While I haven't tried it yet, I am reasonably confident that you can make Randy's American style on a stone, but you may have to experiment with stone positioning and oven temperature and bake time to get the equivalent results. Using a pizza screen, I was able to avoid all of this experimentation. But, even if you use a stone, you have to be careful with the oven/stone temperature because Randy's recipe calls for a lot of sugar and honey, which can lead to premature or excessive browning of the bottom crust when the dough is in direct physical contact with a very hot stone. It is even possible for the crust to become browned before the rest of the pizza has finished baking. If I were using a stone, I would personally be inclined to still use a pizza screen (or a disk) to keep the dough elevated a bit above the stone. I would also use a slightly lower stone temperature just to be on the safe side.

I realize that you have been attempting a hand-kneaded version of Randy's recipe and that some changes may be necessary as a result. However, one of the things you may want to avoid is the temptation to add too much flour. Usually as you continue to knead a dough that seems too wet, some, or even all, of that wetness will disappear. If that fails, then you should add more flour sparingly, maybe a half-teaspoon or teaspoon at a time. I wouldn't worry too much about the window-pane test. I may be wrong on this, but I don't believe Randy has ever specified such a test for his American style. If you find that you are having difficulty hand kneading the dough, I would suggest, as I did in my last post in this thread, that you simply increase the rest period from 5 minutes to, say, 20 minutes. I have done this sort of thing with high-gluten flours and have found that it works wonders in hand kneading the dough. I think you will find that the total knead time will even be reduced. I don't know whether you will ever be able to exactly replicate the Papa John's style with your hand kneaded dough following the above suggestions, but I think you should get results that will satisfy you nonetheless.

Peter

[chiguy]

 Hi skatesilly,
 the fact that you are continuing to experiment tells me that you are on you're way to making great pizza. Although you have experienced varied results this should not discourage you.
 I am a bit puzzled by the fact that you added a whole 1/2C of flour to this recipe. At 61-63% hydration this should not have felt very wet at all. By adding this much flour and thus decreasing the hydration (maybe under 50%), you would not doubt experience a denser crust. You should always stick to the original recipes and flour you're hands in the beginning of the sticky kneading process.
 Also depending on what type of bread flour you used, you're protein level could be under 12%. Although many people here use 60% hydration and above for bread flour/allpurpose, it is not recommended for pizza skins. If you are using bread flour you should try and track down some KingArther bread flour which has a higher protein content than some other brands. If you around a Costco or Sams, you may be able to find some All Trumps high gluten in 25# bags for under $7.
 I would also like to mention that the method for retarding dough in the refridgerator overnight is reserved for lower temperature doughs with cooler water and IDY. If your dough temp is too high and yeast level is above 0.75% you may experience overfermentation. Even with the amount of sugar in the recipe it may not be enough too ward off a very active yeast. I do not know if this happened in you're case, but ultimately using warm water you will experience inconsistent results by not having control of the finished dough temperature.
 I also would like to mention that the forming of the pizza skin is important in achieving a nice open crumb. By lightly patting down the dough and creaiting a lip around the edge without pressing it down can really improve the finished crumb.
                                                                              Goodluck, Chiguy

[Pete-zza]

chiguy,

In reading the last paragraph of your post, I think you may have fallen into the same trap as I did when I first started experimenting with Randy's American style recipe. I think the trap you fell into (the same one I did) is that you looked at only absolute values of ingredients rather than ratios. Except perhaps for the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe, there is no recipe on the forum that I have studied and analyzed more and for as long as I have Randy's. And it wasn't until I came up with the baker's percents for Randy's recipe that I think I better understood what was happening with Randy's recipe (or at least what I thought was happening). This led to an attempt on my part to explain what was happening, in Reply 16, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.0.html. I subsequently modified Randy's basic formulation based on my analysis and made additional pizzas based on the modifications (also reported in the abovereferenced thread). In so doing, I tried to keep all of Randy's ratios of ingredients more or less intact. The fact that the results were very good was a testament to the merit of Randy's recipe.

I agree with you that Randy's recipe might not be one that professionals would use in a commercial setting, especially one like Papa John's. Based on what I understand PJ's dough management to be, PJ's would use a cold fermentation regimen like you mentioned. But, to the best of my knowledge, Randy has never represented his recipe as being a commercial recipe. I was able to formulate Randy's recipe for a cold fermentation application, with consistent results, but I must say that I never saw any inconsistency in results when I made Randy's American style just as he instructed. Time after time, the results were very good.

Peter

[chiguy]

 Hello Peter,
 By lookin at the recipe from you're link in the previous post(more sugars) I may be premature in saying it is possible to overferment after 24 hours. I calculated/quoted the recipe from possibly incorrect source reply#14 http:www.pizzamaking.com/forum/imdex.php/topic,1846.0html

 This is intended for Skatesilly & Peter
The fact that i used the term inconsistent is not meant to imply not good. It has been my experience and that of others here at the forum, that a finished crust can taste signifacantly different when used after 12 hours,24, 48 or even 72hours. The yeast is constantly active during this time until baked. A best way too measure the best finished crust time frame is too take dough temperatures in the beginning. The fact is that most people using ADY do not take an accurate temp of the water. By using water temperatures of between 100-120F it is possible to have very different finished dough temperatures every time. I have mentioned this before that a difference of 15F in fininshed dough temperature can double yeast activity. Although Randy's recipe and procedure may work just fine in correlation to each other. I think it is important for you to realize as a farily new pizza maker that temperature is the most important factor in using retarded/refrigerated dough method. Understanding retarded dough procedure will be especially helpful upon trying some other recipes Peter mentioned earlier in this thread.     Goodluck, Chiguy

[Pete-zza]

chiguy,

I understand the point you are making about temperature and agree with it. It is important, I think, for the beginning pizza maker to understand the interplay between yeast (amount), temperature and time. Having that understanding will put the pizza maker in control of the process rather than reacting to or being a victim of it. It is in that context that I view consistency in results as being a positive. As you know, I am a big proponent of controlling finished dough temperature. That is because my position comes out of the commercial side of pizza making where you really can't have a successful business without it. Most people, particularly those who make pizzas at home, are unaware of the concept of finished dough temperature (it is almost never mentioned in cookbook recipes), or don't know how to use it, or simply don't care to use it. In my experience, most problems that people have with their doughs can usually be traced to yeast (usually too much), temperature (usually too high), and time (usually too short or too long).

Peter

[skatesillyheart]

Alright. I forgot to mention that i measured the ending dough temp before refridgeration and it was right at 85 degrees. I used a pizza screen the first time I baked the pizzas but the ingredients were messed up, and my pizza screen broke last week. I also had a really hard time getting the pizza on my screen because it is fairly small and it was hard for me to slide the pizza from the peel just right.  The evenness of the browning on my pizza was fine with a stone- good on top and bottom. I am going to try again today with the rest of my recipe from friday. It will have been about a 45 hour rise time. I did use king arthur bread flour, and I will look into ordering a 3 or 15 pound bag of the high gluten stuff, but my parents hate using the internet to order anything. The dough was just a bit difficult to knead because it kept sticking to the counter top, so I added what I thought wasnt too much, but now understand to be so. Next time I make it, I'll resist the temptation to add flour. I've read though, that you need more hydration for higher amounts of gluten, and that the flour with less gluten does not need the same amount, but I don't know if that would be a significant contributor to the recipe. In any case, I'll try to bake this one better. I overbaked the last one because I was talking to my friend and kind of momentarily forgot about it. I know Randy's recipe does not specify a window pane test but  I wasn't sure how to tell if it was smooth enough because it wasnt quite as smooth as this
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2150.0;id=2787;image
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2150.0;id=2788;image

from http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2150.0.html

We will see what happens this time. Thanks again for your help! I really appreciate the time and effort you guys put in to help us newbies out

[varasano]

I have thought about trying to hand knead. Here's what I would recommend: Read through my webpage a little (click the globe under my name) in the section where I talk about mixing. There are several key things there. First, much of the kneading can occur even when a dough is halfway between a batter and a dough. This was a big revelation for me.  Also, kneading works out better if you 'autolyze' which is a fancy term that just means mix the flour and water and let them sit for 20 minutes before kneading.

So I recommend this: Start with the amount of water you need, then mix in about 75% of the flour, until the dough is not quite a full dough, and still a bit of a batter. Wait 20 minutes. Mix in the yeast and salt, then mix for a good while with a wooden spoon. At this point its too wet to knead by hand. Then after say 5 minutes, start adding more and more flour a bit at a time. Once it's too dense to work in the bowl, start kneading by hand. Don't worry if the dough reaches a smooth state. It probably won't if you mix by hand.  Don't mix the dough until it's dry. Keep it as wet as you can, only adding flour when it's too sticky to touch. In the end it should still be very wet.

After a few more minutes, stop, return the dough to the bowl and cover to keep in the moisture, and wait another 20 minutes. Or even longer. If you are using a sourdough culture instead of instant yeast, you can wait hours if you want.   Now dust with flour shape the dough into balls. You will find that now after the wait, the dough is much smoother. The dough should feel soft like a baby's bottom.

[Pete-zza]

skatesillyheart,

Some additional thoughts:

1) What Jeff (varasano) says makes good sense. I suggested in my earlier post today to extend the 5 minute rest period called for by Randy's recipe to 20 minutes only because of its value to the hand kneading exercise and because I was trying to minimize the departures from Randy's recipe.

2) I shape and form my dough skins on a large butcher board and then lift the skin from the butcher board onto the pizza screen to be dressed. If you form the skin on your peel, I would lift the skin off of the peel and put it onto the screen, not slide it onto the screen. You can them pull the skin at the edges to the desired final diameter. That way the skin will be round. The skin can then be dressed. If the skin is a bit on the wet or moist side, you will want to line up all the ingredients (sauce, toppings, etc.) and work fast. Otherwise, the skin might stick to the screen. Seasoning the screen will help minimize sticking.

3) You can order the King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten (it comes in 3-lb. bags) over the phone or by using an order form in the King Arthur catalog. If, as chiguy suggested, you can find a local source of some other brand of high-gluten flour in a 25-pound or larger bag, that is the way I would go. It will be far cheaper on a unit basis (by the pound) than ordering from King Arthur, where you will have to pay shipping charges also. The KASL can be found in some parts of the country, in 50-lb. bags, but you will have to do some legwork to locate a source that will sell it to you on a cash-and-carry basis. To give you a frame of reference, I paid around $13 for a 50-lb. bag of KASL. When you see what it will cost to have King Arthur ship you a few 3-lb. bags, you will see the logic to buying a big bag.

Peter

[Randy]

Some very interesting thoughts, your discussions clearly point out a recipe for a delicious pizza from any one on this forum is a work of passion with a promenade of details leading to accurate measurement, specific ingredients, and adherence to procedure.

I slimed down the amount of yeast in my recipe per Peter’s suggestion and now set the water temperature at 110F.  The Turbinado sugar and honey continue to highlight this recipe and that, I don’t think will change.  The hydration level is set at 9.9 oz of water plus the water in the honey, to 16 oz High Gluten flour.  The procedure is getting the most attention lately following the lead by other members I have increased the rest times having one before kneading and another halfway through kneading.

Randy

[Lydia]

FYI

I have a heirloom recipe for Appache fry bread that has a gastly high hydration.

The trick to a delicate puffy dough with a crisp out texture has always been to use warm water and to stir the dough just enough to combine the wet the ingredients; let the dough rest before kneading on a "unfloured surface".

The dough magically transforms from stiff pancake batter to a tacky kneadable dough with glutenous strands within 30-45 minutes, without the addition of any more flour.

Many Indian women will use a cold fermentation when making large batches.

[Arthur]

As a follow-up question to this thread, I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced what I have - which is that with Caputo flour my dough is much better when I hand knead than using a mixer.  I have a KA mixer and with Caputo I have gotten excellent results with hand kneading - overwhelmingly better than when I use my mixer.   I know lots of member love their mixers and I there's a lot of discussion on various mixer including santos, DLX (which I was one day away from buying until I tried hand kneading) and others.   Is there really a benefit (besides the obvious of less manual work) in terms of dough taste or relation to the science of dough formulation to using a mixer?