Author Topic: Help With Starter  (Read 1424 times)

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Offline kerrymarcy

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Help With Starter
« on: October 24, 2013, 10:07:33 PM »
Hi All,

Up until now, I have avoided dough formulas that required a starter mainly because a lack of time and experience.  I really enjoy the taste of a sourdough crust and thought its about time to start experimenting on my own.  I am currently brewing some simple sourdough starter recipe that consists of a 50/50 mixture of water/flour to get my feet wet.  Its bubbling pretty good now, but won't be ready for use for a couple of more days.  I have been trying to locate in some threads just how to incorporate the starter in the recipe.  I was hoping that someone could point me in that direction.  Also,  I thought that I would try Terry's Deane's version from Peter's collection of "non-Lehmann dough recipes".  I read most of the thread and did not recall anybody that tried his recipe.  Has anyone had good luck with this dough formula? http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7561.40.html
Reply #43 revised.  What would be a good NY sourdough recipe for me to try?  I welcome all of your responses!

Kerry
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 09:08:47 AM by kerrymarcy »


Offline kerrymarcy

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2013, 10:35:25 PM »
Hi All,

Ok, I would like to try this cracker crust recipe http://doughgenerator.allsimbaseball9.com/recipe.php?recipe_id=9  but would like to substitute my sourdough starter for the IDY.  What percentage of starter would be sufficient to produce a noticeable taste of sourdough?  Since my starter is a 50/50 mixture of flour/water, do I subtract the amount of water in the starter from total water and likewise with the flour?  Am I thinking right here?

Kerry

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2013, 08:50:51 AM »
Kerry,

A fair amount has been written on the forum about how to convert a dough recipe using commercial yeast to one using a natural starter. See, for example, Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11808.msg109641/topicseen.html#msg109641 and Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5894.msg50534/topicseen.html#msg50534. However, for specific guidance in adapting the DKM cracker style recipe to use a natural starter, you might want to take a look at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5594.msg47368/topicseen.html#msg47368 and Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg48113.html#msg48113. If you are in a hurry and can't wait, you might also take a look at member bakeshack's naturally leavened "emergency" cracker style dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21326.msg214946.html#msg214946.

As you can see from the above, there is no particular magic involved in adapting recipes to use natural leavening systems in lieu of commercial yeast, although there will always be some need to experiment with various aspects of the dough formulations. I once even went so far as to convert a Papa John's clone pizza dough recipe to use a natural leavening system, as I described at Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60892/topicseen.html#msg60892. The approach even works for a deep dish pizza style: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2365.msg20625.html#msg20625.

Peter

Offline kerrymarcy

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2013, 11:54:48 PM »
Peter, Since my last post,  I got sidetracked with kids sports and birthday parties.  I really appreciate the links to threads that you provided- I just started reading some of them, but will take some time to read them all.  At first, I was a little apprehensive to dive into a recipe without understanding just how starters work (I didn't want to poison myself, lol) and how they can be substituted in a recipe, but I have been reading a lot of info on using starters both fed and unfed.  I am leaning toward using unfed starter right out of the fridge and adjusting the recipe accordingly while still using the "called for" amount of yeast in the recipe.  I think that this is much safer bet for me at this stage.  I am currently feeding my own starter and one that I purchased from KA- I really got a handle on how to feed the monster and to keep the ph balance in check.  Sometimes the monster must sleep and sometimes the monster needs to wake up.
With all of this said, I did try scott123 Ny recipe with 9% sourdough starter substituted.  It was very delicious but it could have used a little bigger % of starter as I couldn't really taste a big enough difference.  But hey, I'm still alive and didn't poison myself yet!  I plan on reading all the posts that you provided to gain more confidence.
What I really want to accomplish is to clone my favorite pizza when I was a kid.  There was a pizzeria named "Brusha's" which made a crust that was somewhere between a thin crust and a cracker crust (very popular around my area).  The pizzeria has been closed now for 35 years or so, but as a young kid at that time, I can still remember that delicate slightly-charred thin bubbly crust with a hint of sourdough(ooh, for crying out loud!) and as you made your way to the middle of the pie, it still had a nice balance of crunch and chew to it, even with the puddles of cheese oil.  Well I better go now, I'm gonna start crying. :'( Thanks

P.S.  That bakeshack "emergency" cracker style dough link is a good place for me to start.

Kerry
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 12:26:35 AM by kerrymarcy »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2013, 09:27:31 AM »
Kerry,

I don't want a detectable sour note in my dough, so it's not really something I've spent a lot of time trying to achieve. I like my dough right at the edge - any more sour and you'd taste it. Notwithstanding, here are two ways that I have made dough that did result in a distinct sour flavor:

1) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10237.0.html This is similar to what you are doing now in that I effectively added a large quantity of mature starter to the dough. It's different in that it was also fully active and was responsible for leavening as well. No baker's yeast is added.

2) Using a long slow ferment with either Ischia or SF cultures as I described here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14249.msg170880.html#msg170880 This is probably the most sour dough I've ever made.

As far as health concerns go with respect to SD, I've never heard of any. I've seen plenty of other things grow old in my kitchen, but never on my culture which lives on the counter (I keep a back-up in the fridge). I may go for months without moving it to a clean jar and old culture sometimes cakes up on the sides; I've never seen it grow mold.

I think you will probably get better results in the long run if you learn to use your culture as a culture rather than just a flavoring. This means trusting your culture and dispensing with the baker's yeast. This table will help you find a starting place (assumes a fully active [fed] culture): http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.0.html

Happy to help with questions you may have.

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline kerrymarcy

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2013, 05:54:37 PM »
Craig,

Thank you for your reply and the boost of confidence!  I think that I need to dabble a bit more with some recipes that use starters and refer to your helpful table as a precursor.  I have read your threads concerning ferment times as a function of temperature and % of starter used and find it very interesting- great stuff!  This will prove to be very helpful in the future.
Is using a starter for leavening overrated?  Can you assume that an unfed starter supplemented with yeast will provide essentially the same results?  I understand that unfed starters will come to life again but it won't be as aggressive as fed starters especially in a cold ferment.  I guess what I am trying to say is, can you use unfed starters for flavor in recipes rather than leavening purposes as suggested on KA's website?  How would the outcomes differ?   Thanks.

Kerry

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2013, 06:14:05 PM »
Is using a starter for leavening overrated?  Can you assume that an unfed starter supplemented with yeast will provide essentially the same results?

No (but it is more challenging than baker's yeast) and definitely no. IMO, the extra work is worth the extra effort.

If it was healthy when it went dormant, it should come back just fine. Depending on the culture and how long it's been dormant, it might take up to several days to come back to full activity. I don't think you want to put a dormant culture into a dough and wait on it to come back. I would never suggest using a culture in a cold ferment - I don't like cold ferments period, but definitely not with a culture.

I would suggest that terms like active, fully active, dormant, healthy, and/or unhealthy are better than fed and unfed which could mean all sorts of things. For example. You can feed a dormant culture and it will still be dormant. An unfed culture may be active but not fully active or might be completely dormant.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline arspistorica

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2013, 01:41:11 PM »
My two cents on this topic:

First, you cannot "convert" dough formulas made with commercial yeast "to sourdough;" such statements simply do not make sense.  It is important to remember that commercially-yeasted doughs are a narrow subset of sourdough fermentation and not vice-versa.

Second, any time co-fermentations are used (e.g., sourdough plus commercial yeast), the starter should be seen as a natural dough improver, nothing more.

Third, if you're after "sourness" (whatever that is), then the best means of achieving this end are via the following process parameters:  substrate, temperature, ionic strength and osmotic pressure.  For substrate, the more "whole-grain" your dough starters or dough is kept in, the greater the end amount of organic acids.  For temperature, the higher the temperature, up to approximately 32°C, the higher the final amount of acids, acetate included.  Third, most Neapolitan-style doughs (such as that first proposed by Marco Parente) require a salt percentage of around 3%, which, due to the increase in ionic strength in the dough, limits (by geometric progression) the maximum-achievable lactobacilli population that can be reached per doubling.  The lower the salt content (down to 0.7%), the higher the end amount of acid.  (Neapolitan doughs use a higher amount of salt as they use room-temperature fermentations, which, in Naples, means using any lower amount would end with a dough that's a sticky, goopy mess after just a few hours).  Finally, using stiffer starters and doughs (i.e., with a dough-yield of 150) will invoke osmotic stress in your culture due to higher starch and cell content, thus producing more acetic acid.

Fourth, refrigerating your starter shifts the metabolism of your starter's culture, with all metabolic (and most reproductive) activity shutting down at 4°C.  Cultures experience a massive dying off in refrigerated environments, with less than a 1% survival rate after just 2 - 3 days at normal refrigeration temperatures.  "Waking up" a starter via successive refreshments at normal fermentative temperatures should be seen as restocking the microbiotic population after the massive cell death that has occurred; this typically takes 4 - 5 refreshments to achieve a fully viable cell population.

Fifth and final, using a starter for leavening is not overrated, as a starter does more than just "leaven" a dough.  When used as the sole agent, it maximises that which bakers and pizzamakers see as "good" in a dough while minimising the "bad."  It fundamentally alters dough rheology, nutrition, handling, preservation, digestibility, etc., for the better, something yeasted doughs cannot due without manmade dough adjuvants.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 01:58:00 PM by arspistorica »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2013, 02:33:53 PM »
First, you cannot "convert" dough formulas made with commercial yeast "to sourdough;" such statements simply do not make sense.  It is important to remember that commercially-yeasted doughs are a narrow subset of sourdough fermentation and not vice-versa.

Within the meaning of the word “convert” as any person before you has ever used it here, you certainly can convert a formula that calls for baker’s yeast to use a SD culture and vice-versa. Saying “commercially-yeasted doughs are a narrow subset of sourdough fermentation” may be true in a hyper-technical sense; however it’s not helpful or even accurate in any practical sense.

Quote
most Neapolitan-style doughs (such as that first proposed by Marco Parente) require a salt percentage of around 3%, which, due to the increase in ionic strength in the dough, limits (by geometric progression) the maximum-achievable lactobacilli population that can be reached per doubling.  The lower the salt content (down to 0.7%), the higher the end amount of acid.  (Neapolitan doughs use a higher amount of salt as they use room-temperature fermentations, which, in Naples, means using any lower amount would end with a dough that's a sticky, goopy mess after just a few hours). 

This is inaccurate. You can go well below 3% at room temp without risk of acid or enzymes denaturing the gluten within a reasonable fermentation period.

Quote
Cultures experience a massive dying off in refrigerated environments, with less than a 1% survival rate after just 2 - 3 days at normal refrigeration temperatures.  "Waking up" a starter via successive refreshments at normal fermentative temperatures should be seen as restocking the microbiotic population after the massive cell death that has occurred; this typically takes 4 - 5 refreshments to achieve a fully viable cell population.

I can’t cite any science to reject this, but my observations serve to falsify this claim. Many times I’ve fed a fully active culture and put it in the fridge for a week and had it come back to fully active in one feeding.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline arspistorica

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2013, 03:41:18 PM »
Within the meaning of the word “convert” as any person before you has ever used it here, you certainly can convert a formula that calls for baker’s yeast to use a SD culture and vice-versa. Saying “commercially-yeasted doughs are a narrow subset of sourdough fermentation” may be true in a hyper-technical sense; however it’s not helpful or even accurate in any practical sense.

I find it's very helpful, especially for amateur bakers.  Why?  Because it's much easier to convert a sourdough formula to a commerically-yeasted one than vice-versa, as it's simply done by deductive means; that is, a baker or pizzamaker must simply subtract one half of the (more influential) culture from the equation as well as their metabolites, and he or she is left with situation where oranges are oranges.  Yeast have not and never will be the decisive element in solid-state starch-based fermentations (there's a reason the dominant yeast species does not develop until the seventh refreshment during the creation of a new sourdough culture; the make-up of the yeast species is more determined by the dominant lactobacilli and not vice-versa, with the only exception to be found thus far for this scenario being when wild mutagens of S. cerevisiae contaminate a culture, often the case when commercial yeast is at play).

Anyways, the inductive inverse of the above-mentioned (going from a commercial yeast formula to a sourdough one) is a hell of a lot tougher, for obvious reasons:  the metabolic consequences of LAB have far greater consequences on dough rheology, taste, nutrition, etc. than their yeast counterparts.  We can look at specific examples if you wish.

Quote
This is inaccurate. You can go well below 3% at room temp without risk of acid or enzymes denaturing the gluten within a reasonable fermentation period.

Of course you can, depending on your room temperature!  The common sourdough formulas developed in Campania exist for a reason, as they're a cultural response to the commonly-found conditions in which the dough is made:  hot summers with high humidity; low-protein wheat flour, both in terms of quality and content; lack of refrigeration; and the need to serve pizze from viable dough balls for all-day pizza service.  All of these combined create the sort of formula Marco (as well as many others) espouse.

Quote
I can’t cite any science to reject this, but my observations serve to falsify this claim. Many times I’ve fed a fully active culture and put it in the fridge for a week and had it come back to fully active in one feeding.

There's a huge difference between fully-viable and  simply active (or functional); that is, I can refrigerate (even freeze) my culture and still have it ready to "leaven" a dough within one refreshment.  The resulting dough, however, is not the same as one based upon my normal starter conditions, where the culture's always kept in log.  In fact, most baking books and amateur bakers I know recommend two to three refreshments before using a starter from refrigerated conditions, not one.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 04:00:36 PM by arspistorica »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2013, 04:10:28 PM »
I find it's very helpful, especially for amateur bakers.  Why?  Because it's much easier to convert a sourdough formula to a commerically-yeasted one than vice-versa, as it's simply done by deductive means; that is, a baker or pizzamaker must simply subtract one half of the (more influential) culture from the equation as well as their metabolites, and he or she is left with situation where oranges are oranges.  Yeast have not and never will be the decisive element in solid-state starch-based fermentations (there's a reason the dominant yeast species does not develop until the seventh refreshment during the creation of a new sourdough culture; the make-up of the yeast species is more determined by the dominant lactobacilli and not vice-versa, with the only exception to be found thus far for this scenario being when wild mutagens of S. cerevisiae contaminate a culture, often the case when commercial yeast is at play).

Anyways, the inductive inverse of the above-mentioned (going from a commercial yeast formula to a sourdough one) is a hell of a lot tougher, for obvious reasons:  the metabolic consequences of LAB have far greater consequences on dough rheology, taste, nutrition, etc. than their yeast counterparts.  We can look at specific examples if you wish.

By “convert” no one is implying the two formulas will result in identical final products – nothing of the sort – nor is that a goal I’ve ever seen expressed in this forum. The question is simply asking how to determine an appropriate amount of culture to have a dough that is ready at the desired time given a particular temperature.

Quote
Of course you can, depending on your room temperature!  The common sourdough formulas developed in Campania exist for a reason, as they're a cultural response to the commonly-found conditions in which the dough is made:  hot summers with high humidity; low-protein wheat flour, both in terms of quality and content; lack of refrigeration; and the need to serve pizze from viable dough balls for all-day pizza service.  All of these combined create the sort of formula Marco (as well as many others) espouse.

In another thread, you are lecturing me about folk lore, and here you are writing things like “Neapolitan doughs use a higher amount of salt as they use room-temperature fermentations, which, in Naples, means using any lower amount would end with a dough that's a sticky, goopy mess after just a few hours?” BTW - what yeast is the most common in Naples?

Also, invoking Marco’s name does not impress me.

Quote
There's a huge difference between fully-viable and active (or functional); that is, I can refrigerate (even freeze) my culture and still have it ready to "leaven" a dough within one refreshment.  The resulting dough, however, is not the same as one based upon my normal starter conditions, where the culture's always kept in log.

I seen a culture that has been in the fridge for a week and then given one feeding perform all but identically to a culture kept in log at room temperature. This is not consistent with a claim of 99% mortality in 2-3 days.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline arspistorica

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2013, 04:49:33 PM »
By “convert” no one is implying the two formulas will result in identical final products – nothing of the sort – nor is that a goal I’ve ever seen expressed in this forum. The question is simply asking how to determine an appropriate amount of culture to have a dough that is ready at the desired time given a particular temperature.

There seems to be two subjects here.  First, what is the best means with which to convert a formula based solely on commercial yeast to sourdough, especially via the amount of flour prefermented, and the second seems to do with the views expressed by yourself or others on this forum regarding this subject.

As for the latter, I have no view or response, nor will I ever have.

As for dough formula conversions, this is a subject I have thought a lot about, and I think by beginning the subject with "how much flour to preferment" is not particularly helpful.  Why?  As anybody who's used sourdough will tell you, the rate and quality of fermentation regarding sourdough has little to do with inoculation percentage; again, substrate, temperature and pH are the most relevant process parameters here (and in that order).  Thus, for me anyways, the subject should begin here for better insight into how to convert a formula from a straight yeasted dough into one that's sourdough, but that's just my view!

Quote
In another thread, you are lecturing me about folk lore, and here you are writing things like “Neapolitan doughs use a higher amount of salt as they use room-temperature fermentations, which, in Naples, means using any lower amount would end with a dough that's a sticky, goopy mess after just a few hours?” BTW - what yeast is the most common in Naples?

Also, invoking Marco’s name does not impress me.

I merely mentioned Marco Parente because he was the first, to my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong, as I may well be), to publicly endorse the idea of final inoculation percentages in pizza dough below 3% for sourdough starters; this is the only reason I mention him and no other.  (Interesting you use such low levels in your formulae as well.)

When you ask which yeast, I assume you are asking which method of fermentation and not brand of yeast, as we both know commercial yeast is the most common method used.  The particulars of my statement still stand, though, as the enzymatic breakdown of dough has more to do with temperature, flour extraction and a dough's water activity, especially since most, if not all, sourdough LAB lack extracellular proteases.  The conditions mentioned above under which Neapolitan pizza are still relevant:  low-extraction flour with low protein content, both in terms of quality and content; low rate of hydration; lack of refrigeration; low levels of inoculant amount; and so on.

Quote
I seen a culture that has been in the fridge for a week and then given one feeding perform all but identically to a culture kept in log at room temperature. This is not consistent with a claim of 99% mortality in 2-3 days.

Cool!  This does not mesh with my experience, or the experience of most bakers or pizzamakers, amateur or professional; again, there's a reason 2 - 3 refreshments is the standard number recommended for starters stored under refrigerated conditions, at least in the majority of the baking literature with which I am familiar.  I'm sure there's exceptions!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 04:55:44 PM by arspistorica »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2013, 05:38:29 PM »
There seems to be two subjects here.  First, what is the best means with which to convert a formula based solely on commercial yeast to sourdough, especially via the amount of flour prefermented, and the second seems to do with the views expressed by yourself or others on this forum regarding this subject.

As for the latter, I have no view or response, nor will I ever have.

As for dough formula conversions, this is a subject I have thought a lot about, and I think by beginning the subject with "how much flour to preferment" is not particularly helpful.  Why?  As anybody who's used sourdough will tell you, the rate and quality of fermentation regarding sourdough has little to do with inoculation percentage; again, substrate, temperature and pH are the most relevant process parameters here (and in that order).  Thus, for me anyways, the subject should begin here for better insight into how to convert a formula from a straight yeasted dough into one that's sourdough, but that's just my view!

Perhaps you are correct, but you were not answering the question being asked. You really didn't know that?

Quote
I merely mentioned Marco Parente because he was the first, to my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong, as I may well be), to publicly endorse the idea of final inoculation percentages in pizza dough below 3% for sourdough starters; this is the only reason I mention him and no other.  (Interesting you use such low levels in your formulae as well.)

How else would you extend the fermentation at a particular temperature?

Quote
When you ask which yeast, I assume you are asking which method of fermentation and not brand of yeast, as we both know commercial yeast is the most common method used.  The particulars of my statement still stand, though, as the enzymatic breakdown of dough has more to do with temperature, flour extraction and a dough's water activity, especially since most, if not all, sourdough LAB lack extracellular proteases.  The conditions mentioned above under which Neapolitan pizza are still relevant:  low-extraction flour with low protein content, both in terms of quality and content; low rate of hydration; lack of refrigeration; low levels of inoculant amount; and so on.

So you stand by your quote that in a commercial yeast dough, “in Naples, … using any lower amount [than ~3%] would end with a dough that's a sticky, goopy mess after just a few hours?”

Quote
Cool!  This does not mesh with my experience, or the experience of most bakers or pizzamakers, amateur or professional;

On what do you base your assessment of the “experience of most bakers or pizzamakers?” Most bakers or pizzamakers will never use a SD culture.

Quote
again, there's a reason 2 - 3 refreshments is the standard number recommended for starters stored under refrigerated conditions, at least in the majority of the baking literature with which I am familiar.  I'm sure there's exceptions!

“stored under refrigerated conditions” is a far cry from “1% survival rate after just 2 - 3 days at normal refrigeration temperatures.” How exactly is “stored” defined?
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Offline arspistorica

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2013, 06:03:37 PM »
Perhaps you are correct, but you were not answering the question being asked. You really didn't know that?

I'm sorry, I don't follow.  Can you elaborate on what you mean by your last statement?

Quote
How else would you extend the fermentation at a particular temperature?

What type of fermentation?  Inoculation percentage matters more for commercial yeast, quite obviously.  For sourdough fermentations, all the process parameters already used in Neapolitan formulae mentioned:  substrate, pH, ionic strength, and water activity, if we are not to include temperature or inoculation percentage.

Quote
So you stand by your quote that in a commercial yeast dough, “in Naples, … using any lower amount [than ~3%] would end with a dough that's a sticky, goopy mess after just a few hours?”

If using sourdough (which was the original context of the statement), low-extraction Italian flours, 2% salt (as most Italian bread formulae call for) and "normal" inoculation percentages for bread (wherein 10 - 20% of the flour is prefermented), then, yes, of course (if we are assuming the dough's already undergone bulk fermentation)!  Especially during summer!

Quote
On what do you base your assessment of the “experience of most bakers or pizzamakers?” Most bakers or pizzamakers will never use a SD culture.

On the books I own on baking and the by people I know and/or have met who are amateur and professional bakers.  Most of my professional connections are in Australia, the United States and Europe; I cannot, unfortunately, say much for the experience of those sourdough bakers in other parts of the world, other than what I read!

Quote
“stored under refrigerated conditions” is a far cry from “1% survival rate after just 2 - 3 days at normal refrigeration temperatures.” How exactly is “stored” defined?

I'm not sure I follow.  99% of all cells will die off in a sourdough culture after just 2 - 3 days of refrigerated conditions (i.e., less than 4°C); those that do survive are not necessarily the dominant species in a culture.  In fact, refrigerated conditions often change the composition of a culture altogether, allowing more cold-tolerant LAB species (like Weissella and Leuconostoc) to become dominant, which is why many sourdough bakers, myself included, never put their maintenance starter (as opposed to dough starters) under refrigerated conditions.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 06:13:47 PM by arspistorica »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2013, 07:52:01 PM »
I'm sorry, I don't follow.  Can you elaborate on what you mean by your last statement?

Simply that the person asking the question is clearly new to SD and simply wanted to use their culture instead of baker’s yeast which has a simple answer – it may have a complex answer too, but it seems abundantly clear that such was well outside the scope of the question.

Quote
What type of fermentation?  Inoculation percentage matters more for commercial yeast, quite obviously.  For sourdough fermentations, all the process parameters already used in Neapolitan formulae mentioned:  substrate, pH, ionic strength, and water activity, if we are not to include temperature or inoculation percentage.

Since you were referencing my dough, is it not obvious that it is SD? Substrate is fixed as is water activity effectively, and so is ionic strength according to you - did you not just get done writing that salt % had to be at least 3%? And, you can’t go much higher if you want the end product to be edible.  Having tested a number of temperature ranges for flavor differences, IMO temperature is also fixed. This leaves inoculation %.

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If using sourdough (which was the original context of the statement), low-extraction Italian flours, 2% salt (as most Italian bread formulae call for) and "normal" inoculation percentages for bread (wherein 10 - 20% of the flour is prefermented), then, yes, of course (if we are assuming the dough's already undergone bulk fermentation)!  Especially during summer!

Now you are introducing a new variable that is in conflict with your previous statements. First you cite Marco and <3% inoculation, now you’re talking about 10-20% preferments? And who in Naples is prefermenting 10-20% of their flour with baker’s yeast for pizza dough?

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On the books I own on baking and the by people I know and/or have met who are amateur and professional bakers.  Most of my professional connections are in Australia, the United States and Europe; I cannot, unfortunately, say much for the experience of those sourdough bakers in other parts of the world, other than what I read!

I'm not sure I follow.  99% of all cells will die off in a sourdough culture after just 2 - 3 days of refrigerated conditions (i.e., less than 4°C); those that do survive are not necessarily the dominant species in a culture.  In fact, refrigerated conditions often change the composition of a culture altogether, allowing more cold-tolerant LAB species (like Weissella and Leuconostoc) to become dominant, which is why many sourdough bakers, myself included, never put their maintenance starter (as opposed to dough starters) under refrigerated conditions.

It’s hard to believe that a culture with 1% live cells could double in volume within 6-8 hours of feeding. Many times, I’ve put a culture in the fridge for a week at well under 4C and observed this.

I’d be curious to see a reference supporting the mortality claim if you have one.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline arspistorica

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2013, 09:00:39 PM »
Simply that the person asking the question is clearly new to SD and simply wanted to use their culture instead of baker’s yeast which has a simple answer – it may have a complex answer too, but it seems abundantly clear that such was well outside the scope of the question.

Since you were referencing my dough, is it not obvious that it is SD? Substrate is fixed as is water activity effectively, and so is ionic strength according to you - did you not just get done writing that salt % had to be at least 3%? And, you can’t go much higher if you want the end product to be edible.  Having tested a number of temperature ranges for flavor differences, IMO temperature is also fixed. This leaves inoculation %.

Now you are introducing a new variable that is in conflict with your previous statements. First you cite Marco and <3% inoculation, now you’re talking about 10-20% preferments? And who in Naples is prefermenting 10-20% of their flour with baker’s yeast for pizza dough?

It’s hard to believe that a culture with 1% live cells could double in volume within 6-8 hours of feeding. Many times, I’ve put a culture in the fridge for a week at well under 4C and observed this.

I’d be curious to see a reference supporting the mortality claim if you have one.

As per the first three issues, I think the issues at hand have become too muddled, as you seem to be missing the point of what I am saying (this could very well be my fault).  The low rates of inoculation used by Marco (and the other few pizzaioli in the Campania area who use sourdough) were a reference point to how a dough's environmental and cultural conditions can give rise to its formula.  If one were to review most bread types from similar areas (Campania or regions further south), one would find higher rates of inoculation, as mentioned:  10 - 20% of the flour prefermented, with the typical range of 2% salt to flour weight.  Commercial yeast amounts (for fresh) are also within typical rates (1% - 2%).  My point was, why are these percentages in line with what's used in North America or France for bread but pizza has a different construction?  The answer is simply that the processing parameters are different:  pizza dough needs to stay in a workable range longer, and usually under room temperature fermentations, as is most often used in Naples.  These considerations do not factor into normal bread-making schedule, where a dough's divided and then baked whenever it's "ready."

Yes, I know your doughs are sourdough but to be honest I have not looked into the what's or how's of your pizza dough in any depth to really comment.

References:

Barotolerance is inducible by preincubation under hydrostatic pressure, cold-, osmotic- and acid-stress conditions in Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis DSM 20451T
C.H. Scheyhing, S. Hörmann, M.A. Ehrmann, R.F. Vogel
Letters in Applied Microbiology
Volume 39, Issue 3, pages 284–289, September 2004

Synthesis of cyclopropane fatty acids in Lactobacillus helveticus and Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis and their cellular fatty acids changes following short term acid and cold stresses
Chiara Montanaria, Sylvain L. Sado Kamdema, b, Corresponding author contact information, E-mail the corresponding author, E-mail the corresponding author, Diana I. Serrazanettia, François-Xavier Etoab, M. Elisabetta Guerzonia
a Dipartimento di Scienze degli Alimenti, Alma Mater Studiorum, Università degli Studi di Bologna, Viale Fanin, 46, 40127 Bologna, Italy
b Laboratoire de Microbiologie, Department of Biochemistry, University of Yaounde I, P.O. Box 812 Yaounde, Cameroon
Article first published online: 15 JUL 2004
DOI: 10.1111/j.1472-765X.2004.01578.x

Glutathione Protects Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis against Freeze-Thawing, Freeze-Drying, and Cold Treatment▿
Juan Zhang1, Guo-Cheng Du1, Yanping Zhang2, Xian-Yan Liao1, Miao Wang3, Yin Li2,* and Jian Chen4,*
Published ahead of print 5 March 2010, doi: 10.1128/AEM.00026-09
Appl. Environ. Microbiol. May 2010 vol. 76 no. 9 2989-2996

Glutathione improves the cold resistance of Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis by physiological regulation
Juan Zhanga, d, Yin Lic, Wei Chene, Guo-Cheng Dua, d, Corresponding author contact information, E-mail the corresponding author, Jian Chenb, d, Corresponding author contact information, E-mail the corresponding author
a State Key Laboratory of Food Science and Technology, Jiangnan University, China
b National Engineering Laboratory for Cereal Fermentation Technology, Jiangnan University, China
c Institute of Microbiology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, China
d School of Biotechnology, Jiangnan University, China
e School of Food Science and Technology, Jiangnan University, China

The influence of cold-shock on the freeze drying of lactic acid bacteria and yeast
Dziugan, P.; Malinowska, S.; Wlodarczyk, M.; Kusewicz, D. 2005
Centralna Biblioteka Rolnicza/Central Agricultural Library (Poland) CBR
Ul. Krak. Przedmiescie 66, P.O. Box 360
00-950 Warszawa 40

Autolysis of Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis
M. De Angelis, P. Pollacci, M. Gobbetti
European Food Research and Technology
November 1999, Volume 210, Issue 1, pp 57-61

Engineering the antioxidative properties of lactic acid bacteria for improving its robustness
Yanping Zhang, Yin Li E-mail the corresponding author
Institute of Microbiology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, No. 1 West Beichen Road, Chaoyang District, Beijing 100101, China
Current Opinion in Biotechnology
Volume 24, Issue 2, April 2013, Pages 142–147

Effects of process parameters on growth and metabolism of Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis and Candida humilis during rye sourdough fermentation
Markus J. Brandt, Walter P. Hammes, Michael G. Gänzle
European Food Research and Technology
March 2004, Volume 218, Issue 4, pp 333-338

Modeling of Growth of Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis and Candida milleri in Response to Process Parameters of Sourdough Fermentation
Michael G. Gänzle, Michaela Ehmann, and Walter P. Hammes*
Appl. Environ. Microbiol. July 1998 vol. 64 no. 7 2616-2623
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2013, 09:24:03 PM »
As per the first three issues, I think the issues at hand have become too muddled, as you seem to be missing the point of what I am saying (this could very well be my fault).  The low rates of inoculation used by Marco (and the other few pizzaioli in the Campania area who use sourdough) were a reference point to how a dough's environmental and cultural conditions can give rise to its formula.  If one were to review most bread types from similar areas (Campania or regions further south), one would find higher rates of inoculation, as mentioned:  10 - 20% of the flour prefermented, with the typical range of 2% salt to flour weight.  Commercial yeast amounts (for fresh) are also within typical rates (1% - 2%).  My point was, why are these percentages in line with what's used in North America or France for bread but pizza has a different construction?  The answer is simply that the processing parameters are different:  pizza dough needs to stay in a workable range longer, and usually under room temperature fermentations, as is most often used in Naples.  These considerations do not factor into normal bread-making schedule, where a dough's divided and then baked whenever it's "ready."

I didn't miss that point. Rather, I was highlighting the inconsistency with other statements you made namely "in Naples, … using any lower amount [than ~3%] would end with a dough that's a sticky, goopy mess after just a few hours," and when asked to confirm, your wholly revised version "'normal' inoculation percentages for bread (wherein 10 - 20% of the flour is prefermented)"

Pizza is not bread. It seems like many bread bakers - even the most skilled - have difficulty understanding this.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline kerrymarcy

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2013, 09:30:33 PM »
Craig and arspistorica,

Thank you for your replies.  You guys both exhibit a wealth of knowledge in SD starters (miles and miles over my head).  Most of what you are discussing is extremely interesting and because of the unpredictable nature of each unique starter,  one can see that starters are not an exact science.
I'm a newbie as far as starters are concerned.  I purchased a King Arthur starter (claim to have French roots from the mid 1800's) several weeks ago and have also started my simple flour/water version, which in fact, is doing exceptional well.  Just today,  I pulled my starter from the fridge that has been stored since, I believe, last Saturday and discarded what KA recommends (all but a 1/2 cup) and then fed the starter. Within 5-6 hours it had doubled in size.  I feel that it is very active and may have been ready to use as is. 
Read the part about "maintaining your starter in the refrigerator" at this link http://www.kingarthurflour.com/blog/2012/04/08/maintaining-your-sourdough-starter-food-water-and-time/

They talk about using the unfed discard to flavor breads and pizza - this is what I was talking about earlier in the thread.  Their recipes for some sourdough breads are from this "discard" or unfed starter.  I think this "pseudo" sourdough baking supplemented with commercial yeast has its place for newbies if you are not trying to leaven your dough with the starter.   
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 09:39:47 PM by kerrymarcy »

Offline arspistorica

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2013, 09:44:40 PM »
I didn't miss that point. Rather, I was highlighting the inconsistency with other statements you made namely "in Naples, … using any lower amount [than ~3%] would end with a dough that's a sticky, goopy mess after just a few hours," and when asked to confirm, your wholly revised version "'normal' inoculation percentages for bread (wherein 10 - 20% of the flour is prefermented)"

Pizza is not bread. It seems like many bread bakers - even the most skilled - have difficulty understanding this.

The first quote mentioned was in reference to sourdough-based formulae in Naples, not those using commercial yeast, as the subject of this thread is sourdough; hence, no inconsistencies, unless, again, I'm not making myself fully clear!  Sorry if so.

Pizza is bread; its origins are, in fact, inseparable from the history of bread, just as bread's history is inexplicably linked to that of fermented grain alcohols ("beer").  To assert otherwise is to wander the narrow path of pedantism, and to lay claims to an arbitrarily (and nebulously) defined idea of authenticity.  Again, these are just my two cents, which, given the exchange rate of the Australian dollar, isn't worth much nowadays! (By the way, my professional contacts are also within the pizzamaking community!  I see baking and pizzamaking as on the same side of a very tasty coin.)
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline arspistorica

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2013, 09:48:11 PM »
Craig and arspistorica,

Thank you for your replies.  You guys both exhibit a wealth of knowledge in SD starters (miles and miles over my head).  Most of what you are discussing is extremely interesting and because of the unpredictable nature of each unique starter,  one can see that starters are not an exact science.
I'm a newbie as far as starters are concerned.  I purchased a King Arthur starter (claim to have French roots from the mid 1800's) several weeks ago and have also started my simple flour/water version, which in fact, is doing exceptional well.  Just today,  I pulled my starter from the fridge that has been stored since, I believe, last Saturday and discarded what KA recommends (all but a 1/2 cup) and then fed the starter. Within 5-6 hours it had doubled in size.  I feel that it is very active and may have been ready to use as is. 
Read the part about "maintaining your starter in the refrigerator" at this link http://www.kingarthurflour.com/blog/2012/04/08/maintaining-your-sourdough-starter-food-water-and-time/

They talk about using the unfed discard to flavor breads and pizza - this is what I was talking about earlier in the thread.  Their recipes for some sourdough breads are from this "discard" or unfed starter.  I think this "pseudo" sourdough baking supplemented with commercial yeast has its place for newbies if you are not trying to leaven your dough with the starter.


I don't know the specifics of when the King Arthur site recommends putting your starter in the fridge, but if you want to use the discarded portion as either a dough improver or as a flavour-enhancer, I find it's best to place the starter in the refrigerator before it begins its log phase (i.e., right away).  This is just my personal taste, as I dislike the flavours that develop from dough starters that have reached the stationary or beyond phases!
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe


 

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