Author Topic: Help With Starter  (Read 1322 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2013, 09:49:00 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Figure 4 in "Glutathione Protects Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis against Freeze-Thawing, Freeze-Drying, and Cold Treatment" (http://www.im.ac.cn/UserFiles/File/2010/201005/2010_ZhangJuan_AEM.pdf) shows 99% mortality for L. sanfranciscensis held at 4C to happen in ~30 days not 2-3.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.


Offline arspistorica

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2013, 09:57:29 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Figure 4 in "Glutathione Protects Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis against Freeze-Thawing, Freeze-Drying, and Cold Treatment" (http://www.im.ac.cn/UserFiles/File/2010/201005/2010_ZhangJuan_AEM.pdf) shows 99% mortality for L. sanfranciscensis held at 4C to happen in ~30 days not 2-3.


I think it shows 1% at approximately 7 days, actually, if we're referring to the control (GSH-), and then .1% at 30 days!  Sorry, I was off by a few days!  You would be correct in saying there's a 31% survival rate at approximately 2.5 days.

I think I misremembered as I always think of it this way:  most home bakers who use a starter tend to only bake or make pizza with it once a week (on the weekend), so they are using once per week from the fridge, hence 1% viable cell population!

Thanks for clarifying!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 10:11:57 PM by arspistorica »
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2013, 10:33:51 PM »
The first quote mentioned was in reference to sourdough-based formulae in Naples, not those using commercial yeast, as the subject of this thread is sourdough; hence, no inconsistencies, unless, again, I'm not making myself fully clear!  Sorry if so.


When asked if you stood by your original statement, rather than admit you are wrong, you completely changed course. That’s pretty clear.

Quote
Pizza is bread; its origins are, in fact, inseparable from the history of bread, just as bread's history is inexplicably linked to that of fermented grain alcohols ("beer").  To assert otherwise is to wander the narrow path of pedantism, and to lay claims to an arbitrarily (and nebulously) defined idea of authenticity.  Again, these are just my two cents, which, given the exchange rate of the Australian dollar, isn't worth much nowadays! (By the way, my professional contacts are also within the pizzamaking community!  I see baking and pizzamaking as on the same side of a very tasty coin.)


You are calling me pedant? That’s funny.

This is not about origins or authenticity.  It’s not about beer or bread or anything else fermented. It’s really not even about the stark differences between pizza and bread, and it sure as heck isn’t about substrate, temperature, ionic strength and osmotic pressure. It’s about Arrangiarsi.

“Arrangiarsi or the ability to ‘arrange oneself’ is all about overcoming obstacles. Italians love to jump fences, and they do it with an agile grace that people from Anglo-cultures can almost never pull off.
 
Flies more easily the radar than its English equivalent ‘to manage things’. ‘Manage’ implies the sceptre of command or at least the scrap of a plan. Artisans by tradition and temperament, Italians do not invest much confidence in management. ‘Arrangement’ is much more manual and works for craftsmen, not for kings.
 
Craftsmen know how to make things look beautiful, and they have transformative powers. They cannot turn stones to bread but they can make them into statues and at least feed the soul. We may not be able to eat this dusty marble, but we’ll squeeze nourishment out of it somehow. This is Italy’s best-loved game. There is no bigger accomplishment than making something out of nothing.” http://www.theflorentine.net/articles/article-view.asp?issuetocId=1472

That you don’t have the slightest understanding of what I mean when I say “pizza is not bread” and instead jump straight to a literal interpretation speaks volumes. You seem to be so locked into “manage” and “command” that you see straight through the art. You may have deep scientific knowledge about all things baking; you may be a world class baker; none of that is going to help you bake a great pie if you don’t understand why pizza is not bread. Given replies such as “As for the latter, I have no view or response, nor will I ever have,” perhaps you never will understand. This is in no way intended to belittle you or to minimize your knowledge and abilities.  Precious few great bakers have demonstrated an ability to bake great pizza.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2013, 10:37:42 PM »
I think it shows 1% at approximately 7 days, actually, if we're referring to the control (GSH-), and then .1% at 30 days!  Sorry, I was off by a few days! 

My bad. You were only off by 100% not an order of magnitude.  ;)
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2013, 11:01:57 PM »
They talk about using the unfed discard to flavor breads and pizza - this is what I was talking about earlier in the thread.  Their recipes for some sourdough breads are from this "discard" or unfed starter.  I think this "pseudo" sourdough baking supplemented with commercial yeast has its place for newbies if you are not trying to leaven your dough with the starter.

I really don't have any experience along these lines. I don't think I've ever used starter straight out of the fridge for anything - not that there is anything wrong with doing so. I've simply not done it.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline arspistorica

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2013, 11:45:18 PM »
When asked if you stood by your original statement, rather than admit you are wrong, you completely changed course. That’s pretty clear.

I still stand by the original statement, without qualifications.  I just think the issue's become obfuscated.  I'll admit when I'm wrong, as below.  It's not about "winning" an argument for me; I simply want to increase both my knowledge of baking at every turn.

Quote
My bad.  You were only off by 100% not an order of magnitude.  ;)

Not by 100%, as it's clearly a logarithmic decrease.  99% of the culture dies off within 7 days, and 99.9% within 30.  As I said before, thanks for helping to clarify!

Quote
That you don’t have the slightest understanding of what I mean when I say “pizza is not bread” and instead jump straight to a literal interpretation speaks volumes. You seem to be so locked into “manage” and “command” that you see straight through the art. You may have deep scientific knowledge about all things baking; you may be a world class baker; none of that is going to help you bake a great pie if you don’t understand why pizza is not bread. Given replies such as “As for the latter, I have no view or response, nor will I ever have,” perhaps you never will understand. This is in no way intended to belittle you or to minimize your knowledge and abilities.  Precious few great bakers have demonstrated an ability to bake great pizza.

There's little I can say here, except you assume a lot!

As for the idea that "precious few great bakers" can make fantastic pizza, I wholeheartedly agree, but I would extend that statement to "precious few great pizzaioli" as well, at least in my opinion!  I think pizza means different things to different people, and the ultimate judge of a whether a pizza's good comes down to the person eating it.
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline kerrymarcy

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Re: Help With Starter
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2013, 03:55:19 PM »
Hi All,

I made bakershack's naturally leavened dough recipe today and set out to see what effect my starter would have in enhancing the flavor of the crust.  I took the starter out of the fridge and fed it at about 8:00.  After 2 hours, it had already doubled in size but I waited for about 5 hours to make the recipe.   I mixed all of the ingredients in the food processor per the directions and it turned out a perfect ball that just barely came together.  After the 20 minute rest, It balled up nicely.  I took out the rolling pin and went at it.  It was very difficult to roll out the dough as cracker crusts usually are, but I eventually got it to about 14" (the size of my screen) at about .10 thickness.  I did not dock the pizza because I like the air pockets, but next time I think that I will dock around the interior leaving the edges alone - it is a lot easier when putting the sauce on after par-baking the crust.  The pizza was very delicious and had a great mellow flavor without being sour, especially on the charred area on the crust.  I think that the true flavor comes out a bit more when you taste the char.  I really liked this pizza and comes close to my childhood favorite.  The crust was very crispy but was a little tough in some spots (I think that this was do to my extensive rolling in order to achieve my thickness and diameter).  I didn't pull out my pasta roller like bakershack recommended, but I do advocate a sheeter of some kind so that the dough does not get too compressed and over-worked.  I also cooked the pizza on my stone and probably would have had better results on my screen.  All in all, I think that this is one of the best tasting dough recipes I've had to date  - this will be a quick go-to recipe in the future.  My pictures follow.

Kerry

« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 06:13:41 PM by kerrymarcy »