Author Topic: Airy crumb: minimal kneading or reach the window paning test ?  (Read 1941 times)

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Offline sub

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Airy crumb: minimal kneading or reach the window paning test ?
« on: September 22, 2013, 04:24:09 AM »
Hi,

For an airy crumb full air pockets as pictured, do you have to develop enough the glutinous network to reach the window paning test or is it better to knead the least possible ?
(for 24h of maturation with the Caputo Pizzeria)


Thanks for any suggestions!
Christophe


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Airy crumb: minimal kneading or reach the window paning test ?
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2013, 09:21:25 AM »
If you want to do minimal kneading, it can certainly be done with great results. I've made pizza with a beautiful airy and soft crumb with as little as 3-4 minutes in the mixer (basically just getting everything homogeneous) and only 15 or so kneads done in 3 sets of 5 with a 10-15 minute rest before and in between sets. The dough done like this will be smooth as silk, soft and extensible and yet strong enough.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline sub

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Re: Airy crumb: minimal kneading or reach the window paning test ?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2013, 11:11:22 AM »
Then why  the Neapolitan knead for so long  ???

Yesterday I've tried 20 minutes with the Bosch compact speed 2, caputo pizzeria, hydration around 65%
temperature of the dough at the end of the kneading 73F
2h in bulk 22h in balls, baking time 1min30'

very soft crumb a lot better than my previous try with minimal kneading and stretch and fold.



Offline kdaq

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Re: Airy crumb: minimal kneading or reach the window paning test ?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2013, 11:00:18 PM »
Gorgeous!

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Airy crumb: minimal kneading or reach the window paning test ?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2013, 10:21:43 AM »
Then why  the Neapolitan knead for so long  ???

Yesterday I've tried 20 minutes with the Bosch compact speed 2, caputo pizzeria, hydration around 65%
temperature of the dough at the end of the kneading 73F
2h in bulk 22h in balls, baking time 1min30'

very soft crumb a lot better than my previous try with minimal kneading and stretch and fold.




Wow! I have the same mixer and go with #1 for 4-6 min. About the same effective hydration. I however find the airy cornice is more related to bake temp,ie higher = more puffy.

Mark
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles

Offline sub

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Re: Airy crumb: minimal kneading or reach the window paning test ?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2013, 06:17:53 AM »
Hi Mark,

Do you make strech and folds after mixing the dough ?

Thanks

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Airy crumb: minimal kneading or reach the window paning test ?
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2013, 11:22:59 AM »
Hi Mark,

Do you make strech and folds after mixing the dough ?

Thanks

Usually just do minimal hand kneading and ball for the fridge. My dough after mixing /kneading is not wet.

Mark
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles

Offline sub

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Re: Airy crumb: minimal kneading or reach the window paning test ?
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2013, 03:58:10 PM »
today's pies, still got better results with long kneading . . .

2hours autolisis
kneading 20 minutes in the Bosch compact
30min rest
10 strech & folds

65% Hydration
6h in bulk 18h in balls, baking time 1min30'

Offline caltheide

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Re: Airy crumb: minimal kneading or reach the window paning test ?
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2013, 12:09:12 PM »
today's pies, still got better results with long kneading . . .


Question about kneading with the Bosch compact mixing dough hook.  I have a Kitchen Aid with the dough hook but after the dough comes together it just rolls around in a ball around the mixing bowl.  Does the Bosch do the same thing?  Is this sufficient to call kneading?  I would love my crusts to look like this but I don't think this rolling around in the bowl for 20 minutes would do the trick.  Does anyone know of a way to keep the dough on the hook for a proper kneading.  Thanks, Cindy

Offline kerrymarcy

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Re: Airy crumb: minimal kneading or reach the window paning test ?
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2013, 11:12:43 PM »
Cindy,  I have been experiencing the same thing where the dough ball clings to the hook.  Pete-zza and I were talking about this in my thread "Hydration Frustration" specifically reply #18 and #19.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,27976.0.html
I think that if you incorporate the flour spoonful by spoonful, as Pete-zza suggested, into the water with the paddle attachment until it starts to pull away from the bowl, then switch to the hook and add the remaining flour, you will find that you will achieve better hydration.  When switching to the hook attachment, you have roughly 3/4 of the flour thoroughly hydrated and stand a better chance to remedy this issue.  Sometimes you may fluctuate the speeds of the mixer briefly to dislodge the ball from the hook.  If you are still having a problem, you might knead by hand and place it back in mixer to finish it off.  Good luck!

Kerry
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 08:08:52 PM by kerrymarcy »


Offline sub

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Re: Airy crumb: minimal kneading or reach the window paning test ?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2013, 04:18:12 AM »
I've got my answer  :P


Offline kerrymarcy

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Re: Airy crumb: minimal kneading or reach the window paning test ?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2013, 09:50:52 AM »
Looks great!!  What time do you want me over!

Kerry