Author Topic: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures  (Read 3415 times)

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Offline GarlicLover

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Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« on: October 26, 2013, 10:28:36 PM »
Hello everyone,

1.) How long can pizza dough stay in the fridge before it becomes unsuitable for pizza? I'm talking about already risen dough - balls that are ready to be stretched and baked.

2.) What is the best way to freeze dough balls, and how long do they last? One website says 1 month max., while another website says 3 months.

3.) What is the best way to thaw the frozen dough? Just leave it at room temp for X hours, or better to keep it in the fridge overnight (or longer)?

Thank you all. :)
GarlicLover


Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2013, 10:41:37 PM »
Hello everyone,

1.) How long can pizza dough stay in the fridge before it becomes unsuitable for pizza? I'm talking about already risen dough - balls that are ready to be stretched and baked.

2.) What is the best way to freeze dough balls, and how long do they last? One website says 1 month max., while another website says 3 months.

3.) What is the best way to thaw the frozen dough? Just leave it at room temp for X hours, or better to keep it in the fridge overnight (or longer)?

Thank you all. :)
GarlicLover

From what I know, 5-7 days would be about the limit. You could put the dough ball in a freezer bag and freeze it that way. To thaw, you can either leave it at room temp or put it in the fridge. I don't think it matters much. 

Regards,

TinRoof

Offline GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2013, 11:33:26 PM »
From what I know, 5-7 days would be about the limit. You could put the dough ball in a freezer bag and freeze it that way. To thaw, you can either leave it at room temp or put it in the fridge. I don't think it matters much.

Thanks for replying. And how long does the frozen dough last?

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2013, 01:49:51 AM »
1.) How long can pizza dough stay in the fridge before it becomes unsuitable for pizza? I'm talking about already risen dough - balls that are ready to be stretched and baked.

Since you said specifically "already risen dough - balls that are ready to be stretched and baked," I think an appropriate answer is: Not long, usually.

If dough balls are ready to be stretched and baked, they will soon be beyond ready to be stretched and baked. One of the reasons why you may refrigerate dough is to keep it not quite ready to be used for a reasonably long time (like a day or two). With dough that's not quite ready to be used, you make it ready to be used by removing it from the refrigerator for an hour or several hours before baking. If you do it right, "not quite ready to be used" may span a couple days or longer.

You probably don't want "already risen dough" in the fridge, in most cases.

There are so many different possible answers to your question, which depend on many different variables. Like what style of pizza are you talking about? If you're talking about NY style, I find it easy to make dough that's usable after as few as 24 hours or as many as 72 hours but best after 48 hours. With stiffer doughs, such as my interpretation of Giordano's style, or cracker style dough, the window of opportunity is probably much longer.

The sooner a dough is ready to be used, the sooner it will be unfit to use. If you make dough that's ready to be used in an hour (which probably wouldn't be refrigerated), it'll likely be unfit to be used within another couple hours (or less). Such a dough would contain a ton of yeast. Conversely, you could probably make dough with a weeklong window of usability, but it would probably first take a week for that dough to be ready. This dough would contain very little yeast.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 01:52:10 AM by Aimless Ryan »
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2013, 11:52:25 AM »
Hello Aimless Ryan,

Thank you for such a detailed response. Allow me to clarify: I'm far from being a pizza expert. This is the dough I make:

- 270 ml. lukewarm water
- 1 active dry yeast
- 1 tablespoon of sugar
- 1 tablespoon of olive oil

- 450 g. flour
- 1 teaspoon of salt


Then I knead the dough by hand for about 10 minutes, and let it rise at room temperature for 4 - 5 hours. After that I divide into 3 balls and make 3 pizzas.

So my question pertains to this particular dough. After the 4 - 5 hour room temp rise, how long can this dough stay in the fridge?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2013, 12:26:19 PM »
GarlicLover,

To broaden the scope of your knowledge on the subject, I have treated the questions you raised in a general manner as follow:

Q1. I have made doughs that were cold fermented for more than 20 days, and there are members who have gone longer than that, including Norma and Tscarborough (Tom). In my case, I could have used the dough much sooner but I wanted to see how long the dough would hold out. According to member November, as he noted in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3980.msg33233.html#msg33233, you perhaps donít want to go longer than 30 days. As a frame of reference, professional pizza operators who cold ferment their dough rarely go beyond three days. Most donít even go beyond one day.

Q2. See the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20880.msg211305/topicseen.html#msg211305. As for how long the dough can be held frozen, that will depend on the type of equipment used to freeze the dough. If the dough is to be frozen in the freezer compartment of a standard refrigerator that has a defrost cycle, you perhaps donít want to go longer than two weeks. However, we have some members who have reported longer times. If the freezer has a manual defrost, dough can be held frozen for longer periods than two weeks. Commercially frozen dough that was frozen at very low temperatures can last for months.

Q3. See Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6981.msg59946/topicseen.html#msg59946, Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,27174.msg275143/topicseen.html#msg275143, and Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25743.msg259608/topicseen.html#msg259608.

Peter

Offline GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2013, 12:37:25 PM »
Hello Pete-zza. What about the dough I described in my post above? How long should that dough be able to last in the fridge?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2013, 12:38:33 PM »
Q1. I have made doughs that were cold fermented for more than 20 days, and there are members who have gone longer than that, including Norma and Tscarborough (Tom). In my case, I could have used the dough much sooner but I wanted to see how long the dough would hold out. According to member November, as he noted in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3980.msg33233.html#msg33233, you perhaps donít want to go longer than 30 days. As a frame of reference, professional pizza operators who cold ferment their dough rarely go beyond three days. Most donít even go beyond one day.

If I read the post right, Garlic Lover is talking about 1.6%ADY (I'm guessing 1 active dry yeast = 7g) that has already been fermented at room temp for 4-5 hours by which time it's probably already pushing the bounds of being over fermented.

I think Ryan raises a good point that doing such is different than what we typically see as "cold fermented." My impression from what i read here is that most dough that goes into the fridge for more than a day or so has only a fraction of that amount of yeast and much less fermentation prior to being retarded.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2013, 12:41:02 PM »
Hello Pete-zza. What about the dough I described in my post above? How long should that dough be able to last in the fridge?

I've not tried it, but my guess is that it will quickly fall after you put it in the fridge. It will probably start giving off some water and get a wet look. If after a couple days, you bring it to room temp, reball it, and let it rise some more, you might be able to get a decent pie out of it, but I think it is far from an optimal situation. The flavor will probably be good, but it's likely to be on the flat, dense, and dry side.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2013, 12:51:25 PM »
Hello Pete-zza. What about the dough I described in my post above? How long should that dough be able to last in the fridge?
GarlicLover,

I hesitated to respond sooner since you directed your post where you recited your recipe to Ryan. Also, it wasn't clear what amount of ADY you used. If it is a full packet, then you are in emergency dough territory and you can't expect your dough to perform well beyond the 4-5 hours at room temperature that you already mentioned. If you meant one teaspoon of ADY, that comes to around 0.85%. That is also high, and while you may be able to squeeze another day out of the dough while in the refrigerator, it will be fairly well fermented. You may even have to punch the dough down so that it doesn't overrise. If this protocol doesn't fit with your schedule, you might punch the dough balls down and freeze them. For the rest of the story, you should read my answers to the questions you originally posed, particularly the second and third questions.

Peter

Offline GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2013, 01:07:46 PM »
To clarify, this is the yeast I'm using here in Germany: http://www.amazon.de/Dr-Oetker-Hefe-20er-Packung/dp/B003R7KRX8

Offline GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2013, 01:11:45 PM »
I hesitated to respond sooner since you directed your post where you recited your recipe to Ryan. Also, it wasn't clear what amount of ADY you used. If it is a full packet, then you are in emergency dough territory and you can't expect your dough to perform well beyond the 4-5 hours at room temperature that you already mentioned. If you meant one teaspoon of ADY, that comes to around 0.85%. That is also high, and while you may be able to squeeze another day out of the dough while in the refrigerator, it will be fairly well fermented. You may even have to punch the dough down so that it doesn't overrise. If this protocol doesn't fit with your schedule, you might punch the dough balls down and freeze them. For the rest of the story, you should read my answers to the questions you originally posed, particularly the second and third questions.

Tell me, would this be a better solution...

Same exact recipe, but after kneading the dough I skip the room-temp rise, and instead just divide into 3 balls and put them in the fridge?

Would it be ready for use after 24 hours, and how long would it last?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2013, 01:30:05 PM »
GarlicLover,

Can you tell me how much ADY you are using, assuming that the yeast type you referenced is ADY?

Peter

Offline GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2013, 01:38:26 PM »
Can you tell me how much ADY you are using, assuming that the yeast type you referenced is ADY?

Well, I use 1 package for the recipe above, and if I'm not mistaken 1 package = 28 g.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2013, 01:51:51 PM »
That's a 7g packet (20 x 4x7g). I'm pretty sure it's IDY.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2013, 01:56:41 PM »
That's a 7g packet (20 x 4x7g). I'm pretty sure it's IDY.

OOPS! Yes, you're right, it is INSTANT DRY YEAST. So here's the "corrected" recipe:

- 270 ml. lukewarm water
- 1 instant dry yeast (7g.)
- 1 tablespoon of sugar
- 1 tablespoon of olive oil

- 450 g. flour
- 1 teaspoon of salt


Sorry for the confusion. This changes the whole picture... so what are your thoughts now? ;D
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 02:01:04 PM by GarlicLover »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2013, 02:10:30 PM »
GarlicLover,

According to http://germanfoodatjosies.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=18&products_id=43, the yeast packet you referenced is instant dry yeast (IDY).

On the assumption that it is on the cool side where you are in Germany, if you use your recipe with about 0.40-0.45% IDY (by weight of flour) and no room temperature rise before refrigerating, you might be able to use the dough after 1 day of cold fermentation. It  should be good for another day or two beyond that.

Peter


Offline GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2013, 02:15:57 PM »
Thank you, Pete-zza. And how long would it last in the freezer?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2013, 02:20:35 PM »
Thank you, Pete-zza. And how long would it last in the freezer?
See my answer to Q2 at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,28270.msg285198.html#msg285198.

Peter

Offline GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2013, 02:28:33 PM »
Got it.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2013, 03:06:26 PM »
OK, so my translation of your recipe is coming out to a formula of something like:

100% Flour
57% Water
1.44% IDY
1.08% Salt
3% Oil
2.3% Sugar

The actual water percentage is probably a tad higher than I've indicated, because I translated from mL to what I assume was fluid oz, but I did not convert from fluid oz to oz by weight. Does this formula translation seem accurate to you, Peter and Craig?

If my translation is accurate, that's a ridiculous amount of yeast, especially considering it's a very soft dough. There's also a ton of sugar and not much salt. I'm inclined to call it an emergency NY style dough that contains more sugar than it could possibly need, as well as less salt than most people would consider appropriate (and possibly a little more oil than ideal).

If you let this dough rise at room temperature, then put it in the fridge, it probably won't last long in the fridge (especially if you form the dough balls before you let the dough rise, as is typical in real New York pizzerias). If you do it that way, the dough will probably overferment before it even gets cold enough to retard the fermentation. I think Peter said something like 4-5 hours, and I'm inclined to think that's your entire window to use this dough (if you let it rise at room temperature, immediately after mixing).

If you round the dough and refrigerate it immediately after mixing, I think this dough would probably be best if used maybe 8-16 hours after mixing, and it might be usable up to about 24 hours if kept cold. However, this is pretty tough to figure out for several reasons: 1) That's pretty much double the yeast I think would ever really be necessary for this kind of dough; 2) Considering that's so much yeast, I have no experience using that much yeast with this kind of dough; 3) The dough may also rise faster due to the high sugar percentage AND the low salt percentage.

What I've said here is merely first thoughts. Peter and/or Craig may have already said these things, or they may have said things that don't agree with what I've said. I had a lot of information to digest before writing this, so keep in mind that what I've said may not be the best information. If anyone catches any inaccuracies in what I've said, please point it out in a reply.

My thoughts at this point tell me you'd be much better off changing your recipe/formula than trying to force this dough to work. Start by decreasing the yeast considerably, as Peter has indicated.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2013, 03:33:59 PM »
Ryan,

I used GarlicLover's numbers along with the conversion factors used in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, and got the following baker's percent version of the recipe:

Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (1.55555%):
Salt (1.24031%):
Olive Oil (3%):
Sugar (2.6578%):
Total (168.45366%):
450.05 g  |  15.87 oz | 0.99 lbs
270.03 g  |  9.52 oz | 0.6 lbs
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.32 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
13.5 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
11.96 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
758.13 g | 26.74 oz | 1.67 lbs | TF = N/A

It helps to know that one millileter of water weighs one gram.

Peter



Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2013, 03:38:36 PM »
It helps to know that one millileter of water weighs one gram.

Yes, that would have been very helpful. Hopefully I'll remember.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2013, 04:42:37 PM »
It helps to know that one millileter of water weighs one gram.

at 4C  ;)
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2013, 05:08:47 PM »
Two pictures of one of my recent pies: