Author Topic: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?  (Read 3019 times)

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Offline ringkingpin

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What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« on: October 28, 2013, 10:28:41 AM »
I've been reading some threads here about different ways to make dough and some people skip the bulk ferment all together.

I'm making naturally leavened (Iscia) dough, 63-65% hydration, 10% starter, 2 salt.

So, my question is, after I've made the dough, what would happen if I balled it directly, them put in my repurposed wine fridge at say 60 degrees for 24 hours and then pull them out to warm up and use. 

Anyone?

Thanks!
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2013, 11:21:34 AM »
I'm making naturally leavened (Iscia) dough, 63-65% hydration, 10% starter, 2 salt.

So, my question is, after I've made the dough, what would happen if I balled it directly, them put in my repurposed wine fridge at say 60 degrees for 24 hours and then pull them out to warm up and use. 

Assuming that's enough starter (I would have guessed more like 20% starter), they will probably be just fine.

There is only one way to find out.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline PizzaPolice

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2013, 11:33:37 AM »
Geoff:

Thanks what I was doing for the longest time.  It works but you have to allow the balls to warm up for at least 6 hours to get the most spring out of the dough.  Happily, my dedicated dough refrigerator died and I could not locate another that would accept my big dough trays.  I sniffed around Craig's Garage and the bulk ferment is the way to go.

PP

Offline ringkingpin

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2013, 12:33:51 PM »
Assuming that's enough starter (I would have guessed more like 20% starter), they will probably be just fine.

There is only one way to find out.

Haha, you're the one that convinced me to lower the % of starter in my dough.  10% seems to work pretty darn well.  I was actually going to go a little less and then go for a longer ferment time.



Pizza Police!  How goes it?  What differences did you notice when going to bulk from your old way of pre balling it?
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Offline ringkingpin

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2013, 12:42:22 PM »
OK, I might have goofed... When looking at the dough calculator for preferment, there is a note to the side: that says preferments percentage of water is the weight of water, divided by total weight of preferement x 100.  I hadn't read that before and was assuming my starter which is equal weight of water and flour would be 100%.  Is it actually 50%?  If that's the case, then I AM at 20%, not 10%
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Offline PizzaPolice

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2013, 01:21:15 PM »
Hey pal!

Huge difference.  Although there are so many variables this one change has a consistent outcome.  Window paning is to the extreme.  The cornicione is light, airy almost pastry like.  (your wife may disagree)
I've got some 5 Ga. molasses buckets from the cookie factory.  These guys have snap down lids for a perfect seal.  Just mix your dough like usual, but dial down the Ischia.  Stick it in the bucket.  The rise is s l o w. 
Let me know if you want any buckets. I'll wing 'em out to your factory.

PP

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2013, 08:04:42 PM »
RKP,

Several years ago, when Marco (pizzanapoletana) was active on the forum, he said the fermenting the dough in bulk and then doing the division into individual dough balls was mandatory. Over the years, I got to the point where I could be a gadfly and write things intentionally in a way that Marco could not resist responding to. However, I could never get Marco to explain why the two-step process was necessary. I think the reason he did not elaborate on this matter was because at the time he was contemplating writing a book on the Neapolitan pizza style and he did not want to spill all of the beans on this forum, as I so noted in the second paragraph of Reply 63 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14038.msg141218/topicseen.html#msg141218. However, from an explanation standpoint, I gave the matter my best shot at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7022.msg60428.html#msg60428. You will also see Marco's attempt to defend the two-step process in response to scott r's comment, at Reply 54 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2088.msg24291.html#msg24291.

Peter

Offline ringkingpin

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2013, 10:47:36 PM »
Haha, thanks Pete!  Your posting cracks me up, I love it!  Archivist of custodian of the records? Interesting reading in the links, thanks.
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2013, 04:34:47 AM »
RKP,

Several years ago, when Marco (pizzanapoletana) was active on the forum, he said the fermenting the dough in bulk and then doing the division into individual dough balls was mandatory. Over the years, I got to the point where I could be a gadfly and write things intentionally in a way that Marco could not resist responding to. However, I could never get Marco to explain why the two-step process was necessary. I think the reason he did not elaborate on this matter was because at the time he was contemplating writing a book on the Neapolitan pizza style and he did not want to spill all of the beans on this forum, as I so noted in the second paragraph of Reply 63 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14038.msg141218/topicseen.html#msg141218. However, from an explanation standpoint, I gave the matter my best shot at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7022.msg60428.html#msg60428. You will also see Marco's attempt to defend the two-step process in response to scott r's comment, at Reply 54 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2088.msg24291.html#msg24291.

Peter


Dear Peter, in my assessment, it is not easy to simply state why the "two-step process" (sometimes referred to as "double-rise") yields better results than the "one-step process"—because of the complexities involved in this matter. Actual experimentation has fully substantiated, at least to many prominent bakers and pizzaioli, that the two-step process produces superior results indeed, yet they fall short to provide a rationale underlying the phenomenon. Perhaps, to know why, one needs to have a conceptual understanding of the system, that is, the dough system.

In my opinion, under the right conditions, the two-step process, as opposed to the one-step process, brings about:

1. Better dough maturation (i.e., better balance between the physical attributes of dough extensibility and elasticity),
2. Better dough strength (which is essentially another interrelated physical attribute of dough maturation), and
3. Better dough flavor

If I am not mistaken, Raymond Calvel also emphasized the importance of using double-rise for the sake of better dough maturation and flavor. However, I do not think he revealed any reasons. I naively believe the reasons lie in the yeast colonies (and their colonial behavior and patterns throughout the dough), yeast metabolism, and dough biochemistry. If I, as an amateur, were to account for all these here, it would probably take me several hours and about twenty pages. So, I will be absurdly brief, hoping that I can get my point across. There are many dots that need to be connected.

Basically, according to my ongoing studies, when the dough is manipulated, subdivided, and formed into dough balls after the first rise or first step, these very acts change the behavior of yeast colonies and the underlying physical structure of the dough. These acts considerably impact the dough rheology, biochemistry, and metabolic behavior of Saccharomyces cerevisiae as briefly outlined below:

1. Hydrolysis and enzymatic reduction of starch (amylose and amylopectin) to disaccharides, and reduction of proteins to smaller chains of amino acids;
2. Enzymatic reduction of disaccharides (maltose) to monosaccharides (glucose) in S. cerevisiae;
3. S. cerevisiae catabolic metabolism of glucose (including protein and lipid) molecules:
    a. Aerobic cellular respiration (complete glucose oxidation/breakdown):
        1) Glycolysis (1 Glucose → 2 Pyruvate + 2 Water + 2 ATP + Heat)
        2) Pyruvate decarboxylation (2 Pyruvate → 2 Acetyl-Coenzyme A + 2 Carbon Dioxide↑)
        3) Citric acid cycle (2 Acetyl-Coenzyme A → 2 CoA-SH + 4 Carbon Dioxide↑ + 2 ATP + Heat)
        4) Electron transport chain & chemiosmosis (CAC → 6 water + 32 ATP + Heat)
        Overall result of aerobic respiration: 1 Glucose + 6 Oxygen → 6 Water + 6 Carbon Dioxide↑ + 36 ATP + Heat

    b. Anaerobic cellular respiration (incomplete glucose oxidation/breakdown):
        1) Glycolysis (1 Glucose → 2 Pyruvate + 2 Water + 2 ATP + Heat)
        2) Alcoholic Fermentation (2 Pyruvate → 2 acetaldehyde + 2 Carbon Dioxide → 2 Ethanol)
        Overall result of anaerobic respiration: 1 Glucose → 2 Ethanol + 2 Carbon Dioxide)

4. S. cerevisiae anabolic metabolism (which is contingent on aerobic respiration):
        1) Yeast division/reproduction
        2) Yeast growth/biomass
        3) Etc.

As I mentioned above, the very acts of subdividing and forming dough balls change the behavior of yeast colonies and dough rheology. In the process, some metabolic waste materials (such as carbon dioxide and alcohol) are expelled, which has, to varying degrees, a revitalizing effect on the yeast cells. Most known biological organisms (including humans and S. cerevisiae, which are homologous to human cells) can not sustain themselves too long in their own waste materials. To S. cerevisiae, both carbon dioxide and ethanol (which is toxic) are waste products. The entrapment and accumulation of carbon dioxide in the dough gradually lowers the pH of the dough and, hence, the metabolic functions of the yeast cells. Moreover, the build-up of alcohol in the dough has the same effect on the yeast cells. S. cerevisiae are acid intolerant. And, sufficient concentration of alcohol is lethal to the yeast cells. Dough manipulation, upon the conclusion of the first rise, will most likely relocate and/or disperse the yeast colonies from the acidification and alcoholization of their immediate surroundings. Keep in mind that, according to our present knowledge of S. cerevisiae, the yeast cells are not motile. They are not capable of self-motion.

S. cerevisiae are not able to ferment the fermentable substances of dough outside of their cells, nor can they proteolytically reduce the proteins (e.g., gluten) outside of their bodies. The yeast cells do not have the ability to secrete digestive enzymes into their surrounding environment; hence, they need to ingest the digestible disaccharides, hexoses, proteins, and lipids before they can act upon them. Therefore, the acts of subdividing and forming dough balls can shuffle the dough nutrients and redistribute the non-motile yeast cells for the sake of more uniform catabolic reactions in the dough. This is kind of similar to the "divide and conquer" principle.

The reintroduction of oxygen in the dough by manipulation may shift metabolism of S. cerevisiae from anaerobic to aerobic or vice versa, and it may be accompanied by the Crabtree effect or Pasteur effect, depending on the levels of glucose and oxygen concentration. Fermentation (which yields no energy, ATP, of its own) is an incomplete breakdown of glucose molecules, whereas aerobic cellular respiration (which yields about 36 ATPs per glucose molecule) is a complete breakdown of glucose molecules. Hence, it might be advantageous to shift from anaerobic to aerobic respiration, which does no fermentation; nonetheless, it aids digestion, leavens the dough, and produces weak organic acids which contribute to flavor and bake quality. Naturally, it is all about the right balance between the aerobic and anaerobic reactions.

The yeast colonies behave much like highly organized multicellular entities or even armies. They are able to communicate and coordinate their behavior. Think about it, what happens if every yeast cell in the dough decides to carry out a different metabolic reaction or pathway, of which there are many:

http://pathway.yeastgenome.org/SGD_biochemical_pwy_poster.pdf

The yeast cells appear to be much more sophisticated than once we thought. These single-celled eukaryotic organisms are sensitive and responsive to the changes in their environment (motion, pressure, pH, nutrient fluctuations, temperature, light, sound waves). According to the microbiology paper "How Saccharomyces Responds to Nutrients" published in 2008 by the Department of Molecular Biology of Princeton University:

"Yeast cells sense the amount and quality of external nutrients through multiple interconnected signaling networks, which allow them to adjust their metabolism, transcriptional profile, and developmental program to adapt readily and appropriately to changing nutritional states. We present our current understanding of the nutritional sensing networks yeast cells rely on for perceiving the nutritional landscape, with particular emphasis on those sensitive to carbon and nitrogen sources. We describe the means by which these networks inform the cell's decision among the different developmental programs available to them—growth, quiescence, filamentous development, or meiosis/sporulation. We conclude that the highly interconnected signaling networks provide the cell with a highly nuanced view of the environment and that the cell can interpret that information through a sophisticated calculus to achieve optimum responses to any nutritional condition."
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18303986

This is really a fascinating subject. Please, take everything I communicated above with a grain of salt as I am no professional microbiologist. Good night!

Omid

(The picture, below, shows yeast colonies expanding in a malt agar. Each colony is comprise of thousands to millions of yeast cells. In certain areas in the agar, there are individual expanding colonies built on top of one another.)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 03:08:40 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2013, 10:26:15 AM »
(The picture, below, shows yeast colonies expanding in a malt agar. Each colony is comprise of thousands to millions of yeast cells. In certain areas in the agar, there are individual expanding colonies built on top of one another.)

That is what is called a streak plate. It's a method to isolate individual strains from a species. You inoculate a plate with a mixed species and then streak the plate with a sterile loop. Then turn the plate and streak again with a sterile loop dragging some of the cells across the plate, then again. Usually there are 4 quadrants, but this one looks like it only has three. In any case, each new set of streaks pulls progressively fewer cells as the concentration is diluted with each set of streaks. The goal is to get to where you spread single cells across the final portion of the plate. The single dot colonies grew from single cells and are thus all of the same species.
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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 10:38:45 AM »
That is what is called a streak plate. It's a method to isolate individual strains from a species. You inoculate a plate with a mixed species and then streak the plate with a sterile loop. Then turn the plate and streak again with a sterile loop dragging some of the cells across the plate, then again. Usually there are 4 quadrants, but this one looks like it only has three. In any case, each new set of streaks pulls progressively fewer cells as the concentration is diluted with each set of streaks. The goal is to get to where you spread single cells across the final portion of the plate. The single dot colonies grew from single cells and are thus all of the same species.

Really interesting, thanks both for the information. What is also interesting is the green area, which I'm assuming is the area of "fewer cells as the concentration is diluted with each set of streaks", and how it appears to have the largest individual colonies. Seems like yeast work better alone.
Josh

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2013, 06:10:52 PM »
That is what is called a streak plate. It's a method to isolate individual strains from a species. You inoculate a plate with a mixed species and then streak the plate with a sterile loop. Then turn the plate and streak again with a sterile loop dragging some of the cells across the plate, then again. Usually there are 4 quadrants, but this one looks like it only has three. In any case, each new set of streaks pulls progressively fewer cells as the concentration is diluted with each set of streaks. The goal is to get to where you spread single cells across the final portion of the plate. The single dot colonies grew from single cells and are thus all of the same species.


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Offline TonyK

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2013, 07:06:54 PM »
RKP,

Several years ago, when Marco (pizzanapoletana) was active on the forum, he said the fermenting the dough in bulk and then doing the division into individual dough balls was mandatory. Over the years, I got to the point where I could be a gadfly and write things intentionally in a way that Marco could not resist responding to. However, I could never get Marco to explain why the two-step process was necessary. [/url].

Peter
I was once told by a very good and well known pizzaolo that bulk fermenting was a practice borne out of the practice of kneading by hand. He went on to say that with modern dough machines make it a waste of time.

That said, these guys never tell the truth about anything :) you really need to make your own conclusions.

Offline Pulcinella

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2013, 07:28:03 PM »
Tony, how do modern dough machines make bulk fermentation a "waste of time"? How does modern dough machines affect dough strength and flavor by skipping bulk fermentation. Does this view (waste of time) also apply to making dough with sourdough starter? I appreciate your explanation.

Offline arspistorica

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2013, 01:21:32 AM »
Bakers and pizzamakers bulk ferment for a variety of reasons, many of which are practical.  Basically, it's more efficient to mix, store and ferment larger masses of dough than smaller ones.  A second practical consideration is dough rheology.  Fermentation in bulk enjoys the benefits of the mass effect, which is, in and of itself, a combination of the larger dough mass acting as a greater store of heat; greater substrate availability due to more of the fermentative culture being exposed to these substrates in three-dimensions; providing less exposure to oxygen from the outside environment; and creating a feedback loop that accelerates the rate and quality of fermentation due, both, to the exothermic nature of microaerobic fermentation and increased interplay between the fermentative culture and cereal proteases.  The latter is rarely, if ever, mentioned in the relevant literature.  It happens in the case of both commercially-yeasted and naturally-leavened doughs.

Bulk fermentation is a more efficient process for dough readiness; mixing has an immediate shortening effect on gluten molecules and early division negatively impacts (delays or even reduces) the development of the gluten macropolymer (GMP) as a result.

There is a theoretical limit to the mass effect, though, when the size of the dough mass creates an internal barometric pressure that exceeds the benefits enjoyed from the larger mass, although this limit will never be reached by any baker or pizzamaker under practical conditions (industrial-level quantities excepting).
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 01:43:58 AM by arspistorica »
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Offline TonyK

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2013, 07:42:01 AM »
Pulcinella,

I don't know as it wasn't my contention. The context of the conversation  though, was with a fork mixer and a long rise time. The premise was that the bulk rise would help offset the deficiencies of hand kneading (whatever they may be). Now if I'm to draw a conclusion from that I would say that he was alluding to the fact that a fork mixer will aerate your dough much better while forming a much tighter gluten mesh than hand kneading - resulting in a light dough that is still strong enough to hold together for a long rise time without the need of a double rise.

Now I'm not saying this is true, just what his contention was.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2013, 08:48:24 AM »
I assume that Ian's discussion in Reply 14 above is with respect to dough that is fermented at room temperature, or at least not at refrigerator temperatures. Once you go to refrigerators or commercial coolers, which quite a few pizza operators use in the U.S. to make Neapolitan style pizzas, arguably the convenience swings the other way, that is, it is more convenient and efficient to do the division up front, rather than after the period of cold fermentation of the bulk dough. This is a subject that came up recently when another member, Ryan, wondered whether it was likely that a commissary could deliver cold fermented dough in bulk to its chain of stores to be divided at the store level. For those who are interested, in Reply 210 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25774.msg287972/topicseen.html#msg287972, I provided links to threads and posts that discuss various aspects of this subject.

Peter

Offline TonyK

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2013, 09:48:15 AM »
I'm not sure, but as far as convenience is concerned I think it's much easier to ball the dough before a bulk fermentation - especially from a room temperature rise.

I've mostly bulk fermented, only because that the way I was taught 30 years ago. That said, in those days our fermentations were short, we only had Hobarts, and our flour was different. So who knows?

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2013, 10:02:56 AM »
I'm not sure, but as far as convenience is concerned I think it's much easier to ball the dough before a bulk fermentation

I would think it would be a pain to bulk ferment after balling.  ;)
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: What happens if I skip the bulk ferment all together?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2013, 11:48:29 AM »
I would think it would be a pain to bulk ferment after balling.  ;)

Craig,

It's really not that big a deal, as the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6769&hilit=#p44360, and particularly Tom Lehmann's post in that thread, makes clear :-D.

Peter


 

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