Author Topic: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures  (Read 2138 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2013, 03:06:26 PM »
OK, so my translation of your recipe is coming out to a formula of something like:

100% Flour
57% Water
1.44% IDY
1.08% Salt
3% Oil
2.3% Sugar

The actual water percentage is probably a tad higher than I've indicated, because I translated from mL to what I assume was fluid oz, but I did not convert from fluid oz to oz by weight. Does this formula translation seem accurate to you, Peter and Craig?

If my translation is accurate, that's a ridiculous amount of yeast, especially considering it's a very soft dough. There's also a ton of sugar and not much salt. I'm inclined to call it an emergency NY style dough that contains more sugar than it could possibly need, as well as less salt than most people would consider appropriate (and possibly a little more oil than ideal).

If you let this dough rise at room temperature, then put it in the fridge, it probably won't last long in the fridge (especially if you form the dough balls before you let the dough rise, as is typical in real New York pizzerias). If you do it that way, the dough will probably overferment before it even gets cold enough to retard the fermentation. I think Peter said something like 4-5 hours, and I'm inclined to think that's your entire window to use this dough (if you let it rise at room temperature, immediately after mixing).

If you round the dough and refrigerate it immediately after mixing, I think this dough would probably be best if used maybe 8-16 hours after mixing, and it might be usable up to about 24 hours if kept cold. However, this is pretty tough to figure out for several reasons: 1) That's pretty much double the yeast I think would ever really be necessary for this kind of dough; 2) Considering that's so much yeast, I have no experience using that much yeast with this kind of dough; 3) The dough may also rise faster due to the high sugar percentage AND the low salt percentage.

What I've said here is merely first thoughts. Peter and/or Craig may have already said these things, or they may have said things that don't agree with what I've said. I had a lot of information to digest before writing this, so keep in mind that what I've said may not be the best information. If anyone catches any inaccuracies in what I've said, please point it out in a reply.

My thoughts at this point tell me you'd be much better off changing your recipe/formula than trying to force this dough to work. Start by decreasing the yeast considerably, as Peter has indicated.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2013, 03:33:59 PM »
Ryan,

I used GarlicLover's numbers along with the conversion factors used in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, and got the following baker's percent version of the recipe:

Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (1.55555%):
Salt (1.24031%):
Olive Oil (3%):
Sugar (2.6578%):
Total (168.45366%):
450.05 g  |  15.87 oz | 0.99 lbs
270.03 g  |  9.52 oz | 0.6 lbs
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.32 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
13.5 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
11.96 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
758.13 g | 26.74 oz | 1.67 lbs | TF = N/A

It helps to know that one millileter of water weighs one gram.

Peter



Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2013, 03:38:36 PM »
It helps to know that one millileter of water weighs one gram.

Yes, that would have been very helpful. Hopefully I'll remember.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2013, 04:42:37 PM »
It helps to know that one millileter of water weighs one gram.

at 4C  ;)
Pizza is not bread.

Online GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2013, 05:08:47 PM »
Two pictures of one of my recent pies:

Online GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2013, 05:19:06 PM »
I'm inclined to call it an emergency NY style dough

I guess you could call it that. ;D I mean, I usually make the dough at noon and then eat the pizza for dinner. It tastes great to me, and also to everyone who tried my pizza. Of course it is far from being "extraordinary", but a pretty good taste nonetheless.

Quote
If you let this dough rise at room temperature, then put it in the fridge, it probably won't last long in the fridge (especially if you form the dough balls before you let the dough rise, as is typical in real New York pizzerias).

You're probably right. I only used it after a 24-hour period, and it was still good.

Quote
My thoughts at this point tell me you'd be much better off changing your recipe/formula than trying to force this dough to work. Start by decreasing the yeast considerably, as Peter has indicated.

Can you please tell me what specifically you would change in the recipe? I mean, less yeast - how much less? How much more salt, etc. etc. I appreciate your advice. :)

I should also point out that I asked for a critique of my dough a long time ago, and no one told me that I used too much yeast. ??? They criticized the amount of water and oil, but not the yeast. Here's the link to that old thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15835.msg
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 05:29:39 PM by GarlicLover »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2013, 06:16:23 PM »
I should also point out that I asked for a critique of my dough a long time ago, and no one told me that I used too much yeast. ??? They criticized the amount of water and oil, but not the yeast. Here's the link to that old thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15835.msg
I'm guessing it was probably because your recipe was kind of vague and was not expressed in bakers' percents. When I saw "1 active dry yeast" earlier, my brain immediately registered "1 tsp," even though I guess most people would probably be inclined to think "1 packet." Maybe it just didn't stick out to anyone in the other thread. I don't think it stuck out to me (in this thread) until I saw that you or Peter or Craig determined that your yeast was about 7 grams. When I saw Craig mention 7 grams, I plugged it into a spreadsheet (which is not really designed to do what I did with it). It wasn't until then that I realized you're using a whole bunch of yeast.

When you say "1 packet," it takes others at least a couple steps of translation to really understand what you're saying, and most people (like me) won't even bother trying to translate. Thankfully Craig and Peter did this time. If you try to start thinking and communicating in bakers' percents, rather than volumetric and/or weight measurements, people will surely catch that kind of thing much quicker.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2013, 06:32:31 PM »
GarlicLover,

I would reduce the yeast to 0.40-0.45% as previously noted, and I would increase salt to 1.75%, assuming that you are not on a sodium-restricted diet. Any other changes will be dictated by what kind or style of pizza you want to make. For example, if you want to make a NY style pizza, you might reduce the amount of oil to around 1-2%, although some consider 3% to be an acceptable upper limit. You can also eliminate the sugar but if you would like the dough to cold ferment for, say, three days, you might use 1% sugar.

If instead of a NY style pizza you want to make a "thin" American style pizza (think a thin Papa John's pizza), you can leave the oil and sugar quantities where they are, or even increase them by a few percent.

You can use the expanded dough calculating tool to make whatever adjustments you would like to make.

I went back and reread the thread you referenced. In line with Ryan's comments, I think the reason why the members at the time did not comment on the amount of yeast was because you did not specify whether you were using a full packet of yeast or a teaspoon of yeast. I would have automatically assumed a teaspoon. That would still have been high, but at around 0.85%, that would have been consistent with a dough that was going to be fermented at room temperature and used not long after making, as you noted in the referenced thread. You also did not indicate whether you were using ADY or IDY. That wouldn't have mattered much but it might have elicited further inquiry.

Peter

Online GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2013, 08:05:43 PM »
Thank you all for your help. Any comments on the two pics I posted? That pie tasted great, as usual.

BTW, Pete-zza, I sent you a private message a few hours ago. Did you receive it?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2013, 08:20:36 PM »
GarlicLover,

Just as other members commented over at the other thread, I though that your pizzas looked quite good.

I did receive your PM. I usually respond to PMs after all of my other forum duties, including as a Moderator, are done. You should have a response sometime tomorrow.

Peter


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2013, 09:39:53 PM »
Thank you all for your help. Any comments on the two pics I posted? That pie tasted great, as usual.

I think it looks fine, although it's hard to tell much about it from those two pics.

It tastes great to me, and also to everyone who tried my pizza. Of course it is far from being "extraordinary", but a pretty good taste nonetheless.

Stick around here (without disappearing for two years) and we'll get you making pizzas that you and your friends/guests will consider extraordinary.

Online GarlicLover

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Re: Three questions about pizza dough in cold temperatures
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2013, 10:39:15 PM »
I think it looks fine, although it's hard to tell much about it from those two pics.

Well, pizza is one of my favorite foods, and I can really tell the difference between extraordinary - great - solid - & bad pizza. The one I make really tastes great to me and my friends. Unfortunately I bake it in a regular electric oven without a pizza stone.

Quote
Stick around here (without disappearing for two years) and we'll get you making pizzas that you and your friends/guests will consider extraordinary.

LOL! Alright, will do. ;D

BTW, I live in Germany, but the best pizzas I've ever had were in Upstate NY! I lived in the states for many years, and those pizzas in upstate NY were definitely extraordinary. :)


 

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