Author Topic: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough  (Read 3597 times)

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scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2013, 04:22:02 PM »
Demce, Ryan (and others) have given you some good advice. Here's what I'd add:

Tempering

Allow dough to warm up a bit before baking is called tempering. If you don't temper the dough, it will be considerably harder to stretch as well as take longer to bake.  When you extend the bake time with cold dough, you lose oven spring and end up with a denser, inferior crust.  I know a few outfits that, due to logistics, are forced not to temper, but I've never come across anyone that preferred the results of baking up cold skins.  You might find some different opinions on this, but I think 3 hours is a good number.  Start removing the dough containers from the walk in 3 hours before opening and continue to remove them at the rate you're selling pizzas to keep up with demand.  You could, if you had to, get away with using them at 2 hours or 4, but, if you can, I would try to bake all your pies with 3 hours of tempering.

Fermentation Window

Speaking of gauging demand, NY dough is generally at it's ideal level of fermentation in about a 12 hour window.  You really want to, as best as possible, gauge how much dough you're going to need and use it on the day it's ready, not the day before or the day after. Making dough and then using it in a 'day or two' is not going to produce the best results. If you're a little off in your predictions and either end up with extra dough or having to use dough that hasn't fermented enough, it's not the end of the world, but you should be striving towards having just about enough dough and using it on the day when it's at it's best.

Flavor

Using the appropriate amount of salt is going to go a long way in improving the flavor, but I think you can create a bit more flavor with a consistent fermentation period. If your walk in can accommodate the dough, my recommendation would be to always ferment for 2 days.  1 day dough is going to be a bit blander than 2 and, 3 day, while being a bit more flavorful than 2, usually introduces logistical issues.  I strongly feel, for a commercial operation, that 2 days is the magic number. Even if you don't have the walk in space, you should consider 2 days, with a 1 day bulk (unballed) fermentation and a 1 day balled.

Yeast

For a 2 day bromated flour dough, the target level of fermentation should be a dough ball that's about tripled in volume by the time you stretch it.  If you control your variables by using the same temp water and flour, putting the dough straight into the walk-in, and being conscious about the temperature of the room while the dough is tempering, you should be able to tweak your yeast from batch to batch until you hit this 3x goal.

Oil

There's a little disagreement on this  :) but don't stress about when you add the oil.  It's far easier just to add it to the water and has no impact on the manner in which the oil incorporates into the dough. Also, for NY, I would double your oil (from 1% to 2%)

Heat


Tweaking your recipe for the best possible pizza is an incredibly worthy goal, but recipe tweaking will only get you so far.  The single most important factor in great NY style pizza is heat.  Intense heat causes the moisture and gases in dough to violently expand, and this expansion creates the characteristic puffy crust. If you don't hit the pizza with this blast of heat (from both the top and the bottom), the pizza will become denser and the texture will suffer.

I took a look at your previous pizzas you've made and it looks like you're working with a pretty cool oven. Let me guess, 500?  One of the complicated things about heat, is that turning the oven up doesn't always solve your issues because, as you turn gas ovens up, they tend to run into heat balance issues, baking the bottom faster than the top. What's your current bake time and what oven are you using?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 04:26:13 PM by scott123 »


Offline Demce

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2013, 07:07:29 PM »
Scott123- wow yes you nailed it exactly , right at 500 degrees and that was with dough that was pulled just out of the fridge. I am working with Bakers Pride ovens , the stones are in great shape and heat transfer is very very smooth.  I can adjust the heat via the vents on it.

As far as spicing goes I have a pretty good palette and yes fresh garlic & basil can easily kill a sauce so I am careful.

Sorry for such short answers as I am at work replying with my cell phone. I am a little confused with what you said about day 1 the dough is not balled and day 2 the dough is balled? What do you mean by that ?

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2013, 07:52:43 PM »
I just looked again at those two pics you posted. I totally forgot that post was from you. So I guess I was pretty much wrong in every way.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2013, 08:12:39 PM »
Oil

There's a little disagreement on this  :) but don't stress about when you add the oil.  It's far easier just to add it to the water and has no impact on the manner in which the oil incorporates into the dough. Also, for NY, I would double your oil (from 1% to 2%)

Just to be clear, Scott, did you come up with a different calculation than me, or did you misread my formula translation? Because my math came up with about 0.5% oil, not 1%.

Demce, if Scott agrees that I did the math right (which I'm pretty sure I did), you would want to quadruple the oil to get 2%, not double it. 2% is actually very much in line with my own dough formula for All Trumps (1.58%), but I didn't say anything because I didn't want to complicate things any more than I already had.

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2013, 08:28:33 PM »
Demce, for every day of fermentation, you need the walk in space to store each entire day's worth of dough balls.  If, say, you decide to ferment for 2 days, you need to have 2 days worth of dough balls in the walk in at any given moment (the dough balls being used that day and the dough balls waiting to be used on the next day).

If you wanted to ferment for 2 days but didn't have the walk in space for that many dough balls, you can ferment part of that time in bulk.  Bulk fermentation is what it sounds like- instead of balling the dough after kneading and leaving the balls in the walk in for 2 days, you leave the dough in one mass, put that in the walk in, and then make balls on the second day. This gives you all the benefits of fermenting the dough for 2 days, without taking up as much space, as a single heap of dough takes up a lot less space than that same heap of dough split into balls.

The Bakers Pride ovens, as far as I know, have the market share in pizza ovens, and they have a rich and well regarded history, but, they're pretty much in the same boat as most gas pizza ovens when it comes to thermodynamics- that, when you push the temps higher, the bottom of the pizza cooks faster than the top. When it comes to NY style bake times, this forum seems to overwhelmingly favor lower than 6 minute bakes, with some preferring the crispness you get from longer bakes and others preferring the puffiness you get from shorter 4 minute-ish bakes.  When you go above 6, NY style pizza can get pretty generic.  The long bake takes a lot of the character away.

You can't ignore the recipe, but out of everything, bake time has the largest impact on the final quality of pie- by a large margin.

I believe you should be able to turn your oven up to 550 and still get a balanced bake, but any higher might be iffy. Open up the vents completely (those vents are more for bread than pizza).  What bake times are you seeing now?  The stones are stock, correct? Tweak the recipe (more salt, more oil, more yeast), and, at the same time, push the oven and see what she can do.  I suggest finding the highest temp you can set it to while still getting a balanced bake, then stepping back and exploring options for cutting your bake times even further. They say not to change too many variables at once, but, in your case, I don't think it could hurt, just (obviously), turn up the oven during non production hours. You've got an infrared thermometer, right? You're going to want to take readings of the oven to confirm the temps it's reaching.

Speaking of generic... All Trumps, like Baker's Pride, has the market share by a pretty wide margin, and you can walk into countless NJ pizzerias making incredibly uninspired, generic pies with it.  If you know what you're doing, you can work around All Trumps' limitations, but not many people have that kind of intellectual curiosity. Even if you do know what you're doing, you don't have to handicap yourself with a flour that has such a propensity for toughness.  NY style should be chewy, but it shouldn't be bagel chewy, and All Trumps is a big step in that direction.  Full Strength (or Spring King) is a much easier flour to make great pizza with- still chewy- still true to the NY archetype, but a tiny bit less chewy.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 11:21:36 PM by scott123 »

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2013, 08:41:10 PM »
I just looked again at those two pics you posted. I totally forgot that post was from you. So I guess I was pretty much wrong in every way.

If you're talking about your preliminary assessments in the other thread, you were a bit off the mark, but being able to judge a pizza from a couple photos is incredibly difficult, so I wouldn't sweat it. What's more important, though, is your advice you've given here, which, as I said before, was spot on.  If you read my post, I'm pretty much reiterating what you and Kirk recommended.  I don't think we all agree on when to add the oil, but that's neither here nor there :)

Just to be clear, Scott, did you come up with a different calculation than me, or did you misread my formula translation? Because my math came up with about 0.5% oil, not 1%.

I googled 'cup of oil weight' and came up with .475 lbs.  .475, roughly speaking, is 1% of 50 lb.

Demce, try to get  your water weight. If you can't physically weigh the water or don't have markers on the buckets, try to get the dimensions of the buckets. Water is a big deal.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 09:05:57 PM by scott123 »

Offline Demce

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2013, 10:23:20 PM »
Okay so I measured the water weight and im right at 30lbs for a 50lb bag. Ive always felt the dough needed a Lil more water so how far off am I?

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2013, 10:28:28 PM »
I googled 'cup of oil weight' and came up with .475 lbs.  .475, roughly speaking, is 1% of 50 lb.

Yeah, I think you're right. Apparently when I was looking at my spreadsheet earlier, my brain mistakenly interpreted the "0.48 lbs" cell as "0.48%," when the actual percentage cell told me"0.95%," which is pretty much what you said.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2013, 10:34:45 PM »
Okay so I measured the water weight and im right at 30lbs for a 50lb bag. Ive always felt the dough needed a Lil more water so how far off am I?

You're at 60% hydration. That's pretty low for All Trumps and 1% oil. If you double the oil, as Scott suggested, I think I'd suggest another half-pound of water to a pound of water. That would be 61% or 62%, respectively. Other members would likely take the hydration a little higher.

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2013, 11:20:22 PM »
You're at 60% hydration. That's pretty low for All Trumps and 1% oil. If you double the oil, as Scott suggested, I think I'd suggest another half-pound of water to a pound of water. That would be 61% or 62%, respectively. Other members would likely take the hydration a little higher.

With All Trumps, I think 62% is about as low as I'd go.


Offline Demce

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2013, 11:25:21 PM »
I have never tried anything different then All Trumps , it seems like a lot of people here use King Arthur ?  I am very open minded , passionate about food , i work as a perfectionist , and i enjoy cooking a lot . I thrive to learn as much as i can and be the best i can so i am always open to ideas .

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2013, 11:47:15 PM »
Demce, King Arthur is more of a home baking ingredient. It's more geared towards home bakers that don't have access to commercial flour.

Whereabouts are you in NJ?  You can get a single bag of Spring King (for testing) at Dawn Foods in Edison.  Full Strength seems to be available at most Restaurant Depots. You could also talk to your distributor and see if they add a bag of either to your order.

By the way, Full Strength isn't really all that experimental.  The difference is almost as slight as going from 60% to 62% water.  It's just a small tweak. As you move towards better pizza, with the exception of oven setup, the steps are not that significant. Every little bit helps, though. Full Strength gives you almost the exact same pizza- it just provides you with a little more room for error when it comes to mixing.

Offline Demce

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2013, 12:11:05 AM »
I am in NNJ by Wayne . My food dist is Roma Foods , but i will stick with All Trumps if there really is not much of a difference. I just wasnt sure since i never used it before.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2013, 12:20:17 AM »
With All Trumps, I think 62% is about as low as I'd go.

I've never thought about this before now, but I wonder if my preference for a NY style dough with lower hydration than what most other members prefer has anything to do with my water. That is, I wonder if my water makes the dough softer/wetter than most other people's dough. I live in the country and have well water. I've made pizza in at least a few other places, but never using my equipment or even my normal ingredients, so there's no way to compare my normal dough to dough I've made elsewhere.

I'm curious now. And actually I may soon have an answer to this question, as I may soon be moving into town (Columbus).
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 12:33:24 AM by Aimless Ryan »

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2013, 12:41:28 AM »
I am in NNJ by Wayne . My food dist is Roma Foods , but i will stick with All Trumps if there really is not much of a difference. I just wasnt sure since i never used it before.

Roma carries Full Strength:

http://www.romafood.com/Products/Pages/ProdSearch.aspx

GoldMeda
Flour Full Strength
031677
1 50 lb

I'm trying to downplay the difference because switching flour can be a little intimidating for pizzeria owners, but, if you truly are a perfectionist, you want the slight improvement from Full Strength. Trust me, it will not involve any kind of major overhaul- the water you're at now should be just about perfect (60%-62%) and the results will speak for themselves.

If you're still on the fence, taste one of your present slices cold. Regardless of one's personal feelings about cold pizza, great pizza, even when cold, shouldn't make your jaw hurt chewing it.  If the All Trumps crust is still tender when cold, then you're doing the right thing with it.  But if it isn't, seriously, try out the Full Strength.

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2013, 12:47:40 AM »
I've never thought about this before now, but I wonder if my preference for a NY style dough with lower hydration than what most other members prefer has anything to do with my water. That is, I wonder if my water makes the dough softer/wetter than most other people's dough.

Ryan, the only water related theory that I completely subscribe to is the adverse impact of heavy chlorination.  Hard or soft water may impact the rate at which yeast grow, but that should be able to be compensated with yeast quantity adjustments, and, for those that are really paranoid, soft water can be hardened with supplementation.  None of what I'm describing should impact the wetness of your dough, though. Is your water especially soft? It's possible that the minerals in hard water, like salt, have a tightening/gluten forming effect, but I think that's a bit of a long shot.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2013, 01:25:06 AM »
Is your water especially soft? It's possible that the minerals in hard water, like salt, have a tightening/gluten forming effect, but I think that's a bit of a long shot.

I'm not really sure what constitutes either hard or soft water, but one thing I've noticed many times is that it takes me a lot longer to dry off after showers at home than it takes pretty much anywhere else. I don't know if that has anything to do with the hardness or softness of the water, but I've always felt like it may mean the water here is softer than the water in most other places. Oh yeah, and it tends to be much easier to get soap to lather here than elsewhere.

I've always felt like something about the water here makes my NY style dough more extensible than similar doughs I've either handled or witnessed being handled by others. For years I thought it was something about how I made my dough, until eventually the idea just kinda left my consciousness. Until tonight, I guess.

I competed in PMQ's Largest Dough Stretch competition in 2004 and 2005, and the competition dough was unbelievably elastic (to me). I've never been able to make dough that felt anything like that dough. And I've tried, too. Because after what happened in 2004 (which you can witness in Pizza! The Movie), I wanted to prepare myself as much as possible in 2005 for similarly unstretchable dough. Unbelievably, the dough they gave us in 2005 was harder to stretch than the 2004 dough. I still have no idea how they made this dough so difficult to stretch.

Offline waltertore

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2013, 07:48:21 AM »
Ryan:  I am on well water at the house.  It has a water softener on it and it softens with salt.  I think there is a higher sodium rate in softened water tha city water due to all the salt is not filtered out?   It sounds like your well water has a softener too.  Most well water is hard and full of minerals.  The aquafier we are over gives us really good tasting water but our next door and across the street neighbors complain of sulphur/rust in their water.  This is Judy and my first time living "in the county".  I was paranoid as heck having a private well.  I made sure it tasted good and had an in depth chemical anaylisis done on it.  I was worried we sat on a cancer causing something-my NJ parinoia with pollution :)  Around the corner from us is a NJ couple whose wife actually lived in the town I went to high school in.  The husband was one of the "whiz kids" from the 50's when the USA freaked out when sputnik was launched and combed all public schools for bright math/science kids.  He has had quite a career and is a wealth of knowledge on most any topic.  He explained the depth of the well will change quality-if you sink it at depth where there is a large deposit of iron you got rust, etc.  Our well is only about 30 feet deep and our neighbors are deeper and our aquifier is the result of an ancient river bed so the water passes through it real quick which explains why there weren't any serious bad health chemicals in the water.   We call our water "magic water".  It refreshes like none other we have had.  I am going to make some bread today with it.

At work we are on Newark city water. It is harder and chlorinated.  I really haven't found enough difference in either to make me wonder about dough differences.  At home I hand knead most of the time and at work use a hobart mixer.  I have lived in Santa Rosa Ca, Sebastopol CA, Austin TX, South Orange NJ, and here in OH making pizzas at home and in restaraunt settings and the only differences I have found following my recipe have been due to the flour and ovens used. Also all except here in OH were city water.  You should bring 5lbs of water by and we can do a side by side comparison or more convient, get some Columbus city water in a bucket and try it.  Back home the water thing use to be the standard answer to why NYC bagels/pizza were unique to the world.   Funny I never heard a NYC bakery swear the water made their bread so good  :D  Walter
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 08:33:28 AM by waltertore »

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2013, 11:36:57 AM »
Ryan, yup, that's soft water (propensity towards greater sudsing).  I've put in many hours researching hard and soft water's impact on dough and haven't gotten all that far. When I brought up the topic with Roberto Caporuscio, he told me 'hard soft? schmard schmoft' (or something to that effect  ;D ).

The tap water where I am is basically a swimming pool.  I don't really need to do much experimentation to know that the heavy chlorination is bad for my yeast. Chlorine's sole purpose in municipal water is to wipe out micro-organisms like yeast, and, at this level of concentration, it does it's job- too well.  If I boil it, I can drive the chlorine away, but then I have to give it time to cool.

Have you tried using bottled water?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 11:41:14 AM by scott123 »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2013, 12:33:04 PM »
One more thing: Occasionally all these characteristics suddenly change, making it difficult to get a good lather from soap. I assume these changes occur when the water softener needs salt, as these changes always seem to motivate my dad to purchase several large bags of salt. That is, I assume these changes correlate with our plumbing system dispensing hard water as it naturally arrives from the well, rather than dispensing water that has been softened. (Yes, I live with my parents, and no, my dad and I don't really speak to each other.)

Have you tried using bottled water?

No, I guess I'm more inclined to just make the best of what's typically available to me; similar to how I make almost all of my NY style pizzas in a grill, rather than in my oven, even though it's impossible to get anywhere near enough top heat in the grill. I am thinking about filling up a container with Columbus water, though, next time I go into town, then using it to make some dough (probably just for handing purposes, since I'm currently not allowing myself to eat pizza).