Author Topic: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough  (Read 2270 times)

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Offline Demce

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Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« on: November 07, 2013, 10:09:08 AM »
I was looking for some help in a step by step of making a nice NY style pizza dough.

I feel like the mixing of the ingredients might be the wrong way so any help would be greatly appreciated . Thanks !

Basically i add oil into the mixing bowl first , then in a separate bowl i mix up the wet yeast , sugar, salt, and warmish water together by hand , then add into the mixing bowl that has the oil. Right after that , i add the flour and let it mix for 10 minutes . Once done mixing , pull it out of bowl , cut , turn into balls , and let it sit outside for about an hour in room temps , then straight into the frig to use for the next day or two. As far as measurements go that is something else i will be tweaking out but i am looking at more of the proper step by step of mixing the dough .

I seem to see a lot of people mixing the ingredients  differently?


Offline kdefay

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2013, 01:54:49 AM »
It sounds like you are using a mixer, so I'll explain my steps based on a mixer. 

I weigh my water (cold water, not warm), salt, and sugar and whisk it to dissolve the sugar and salt.  Many people here will say that you should add the salt later in the process after the yeast has been incorporated into the dough.  I have also done it that way, but I have found that for me there is no measurable difference between adding the salt before or after the yeast.  So anyway...Salt, water and sugar mixed together.  I weigh out my flour and add the dry IDY to it.  IDY does not need to be activated in the same way as cake yeast or ADY.  It can just be added to the flour and it will activate upon getting mixed in.  The only thing I add later in the process is oil. 

I use a spiral mixer, so I add the water to it first and then the flour on top and turn it on.  When those ingredients are coming together, I then add the oil and continue mixing until it is finished.  When the mixing is finished, I move the dough to my work area and let it rest for 10-15 minutes.  After that, I quickly make the dough balls and refrigerate.  I use no long bench rest or anything like that.  I don't want the dough getting too active.  I want it going into the fridge before it has time to do any rising.  This process works great for a 2-day cold ferment.  If I need a 1-day dough, I will use closer to room temperature water (but not warm) to allow the yeast to be more active earlier in the process. 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 02:25:36 AM by kdefay »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2013, 02:17:24 AM »
Many people here will say that you should add the salt later in the process after the yeast has been incorporated into the dough.

With the process you described, it doesn't matter when you add salt. People say not to add salt to yeast water (because salt can kill yeast). But that's not what you said you do.

Offline kdefay

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2013, 02:26:54 AM »
With the process you described, it doesn't matter when you add salt. People say not to add salt to yeast water (because salt can kill yeast). But that's not what you said you do.


Thanks for clarifying that, Ryan.  Now I know why I saw no measurable difference...   :D

Offline Surffisher2A

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2013, 07:21:53 AM »
Here is how I do it, with a kitchenaid mixer for a NY style pizza dough.

Measure out all my ingredients in little containers.

Put my yeast (instant yeast) and room temp water into the mixer's bowl and let it sit for a couple minutes until dissolved.

I put my flour, sugar and salt in the flour and give it a quick mix by hand just to incorporate the ingredients together.

I put the olive oil into my mixer bowl (with the yeast and water already in it)

Then I add the flour / salt and sugar mixture into the mixer bowl and stir by hand just until it starts to come together (like 30 seconds).

Then I let it sit untouched for 10 to 20 minutes.

Mix with the doughhook for 4 - 8 minutes.

Make dough balls and then straight into the fridge for a long rest.


Offline norma427

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2013, 08:58:19 AM »
Demce,

In addition to the good advice you have been given by other members you might want to look at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html Peter explains more at Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 and more in that thread.

Norma
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Offline Demce

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2013, 10:36:03 AM »
Thanks guys , i see a lot of you use the IDY , but i work with wet yeast . Any reason why most of you work with the IDY over the wet ? Thanks

Offline kdefay

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2013, 11:09:58 AM »
I think everyone's reason for using IDY is going to be different.  My reason is that I live in an area where fresh cake yeast is not easily available and I do not trust the stuff I can occasionally get.  IDY for me is consistent and reliable. 


Offline mkevenson

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2013, 11:20:25 AM »
Demce, dry yeast is very stable for relatively long periods of time. I tried cake yeast but due to the fact that I only bake on average one pie per week, I found the cake (wet) yeast to not hold up very long.
 
"Basically i add oil into the mixing bowl first , then in a separate bowl i mix up the wet yeast , sugar, salt, and warmish water together by hand , then add into the mixing bowl that has the oil."
 
Might I suggest that based on the fact that water and oil do not mix together well, many here add the oil to the dough mixture later in the mixing process. Oil then mixes with the dough just fine. I personally find that adding a bit of oil later in the mixing helps gather the small bits of flour from the sides of the bowl.
 
I would ask you if your pizza dough comes out to your satisfaction with your current method? If so, why change, if not, there are several different options presented here and in other forum threads for you to try.
 
Welcome and good baking! ;D
 
Mark
 
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2013, 12:56:22 PM »
Man, I do it so many different ways, and for so many different reasons. Some of my reasons are very good reasons, yet some of my reasons aren't really reasons at all.

Some factors that affect my dough-making workflow:

What style of dough am I making?
Am I using ADY or IDY? (That's a new one because I've mostly always used ADY, until recently.)
Am I using liquid fat or solid fat (or no fat)?
Have I been making pizza lately, or has it been six months since I last made pizza?

When I haven't made dough in several months, I sometimes forget what order I add the ingredients. In fact, right now I'm gonna have to think about it for a minute...

OK, for a NY style dough, I put a custard dish and a plastic bowl on my scale and tare the scale. I measure a little bit of warm water in the custard dish, then I measure the rest of my water (cold) in the plastic bowl. With the water measured, I add the ADY to the custard dish, along with a pinch of sugar, and stir. While the yeast is hydrating/proving, I measure and add the flour and dry ingredients to my mixer bowl. When the yeast is ready, I add the yeast water to the mixer bowl full of dry ingredients, followed by the rest of the water. I start mixing with the spiral dough hook, then start pouring my measured oil into the mixer bowl much less than a minute after I've started the mixer, when the dough is beginning to come together but is still very shaggy. I mix only until all the flour is picked up and the dough is slightly lumpy if I'm making dough that won't be used for at least 24 hours (which describes almost all of the NY style dough I make). If I'm making dough that will be used in 24 hours or less, I'll mix it for maybe a couple more minutes, until the dough is smooth. NOT windowpane smooth, though. (I'm probably gonna stop using oil with NY style dough as soon as I get my hands on a good bag of flour with a little less protein than All Trumps.)

For the same dough, I used to prove my yeast in the mixer bowl, then add all the water, then add dry ingredients, then start mixing, then add oil. I can't say for sure that the dough comes out any different. The only reason I changed the way I do it is because the newer way gives me a better way to prepare the yeast water and the rest of the water. (With the old way, all my water was warm.)

With NY style, I scale and round immediately (in theory). However, I usually end up letting the dough rest for 15-30 minutes before I scale and round the dough. Once I scale and round the dough, I wrap and refrigerate it immediately.

For deep dish, my mixing workflow is a little different. I add flour and dry ingredients to the mixer bowl while proving my yeast, then add oil to the dry ingredients and whisk. When the yeast is ready, I add yeast water to the dry ingredients, then the rest of the water to the dry mix. No dough hook for deep dish. Mostly I've always done deep dish by hand with a spoon, but I've somewhat recently realized that the flat beater is perfect for mixing deep dish dough. So I've made a bit of a change: After mixing the oil into the dry ingredients (with the flat beater attachment), I slowly pour the water into the dry ingredients while the mixer is going on speed 2 (or maybe speed 1) with the flat beater. As soon as I've poured all the water into the bowl, I turn off the mixer, as mixing is done.

If I'm using IDY instead of ADY, I do some things a lot differently than what I've just shared.


Offline Demce

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2013, 10:04:39 AM »
Well i work with a big commercial 60 or 80 qt Hobart mixer so its all about the 50lb bag flour. We make our dough in bulk , the dough balls are scaled to 1lb 4 ounces. I use the aluminum tins to store each dough ball .

As far as  measurements to the 50 lb bag we use

2 oz wet yeast
8 oz sugar
8 oz salt
1 cup oil

Water i didnt measure but we use a container , ill try to find out how many liters/gallons it is.

Use warmish water, let it sit for about 1 hour after the dough has been scaled, rolled, and oil into the aluminum tins , then into the frig they go for next day or the day after use.

The dough comes out great , i just feel like its missing taste to it. It has just a bland taste non existent taste . Also , i feel like the dough is a little too dense with the crust sometimes . Im thinking that might be from using the dough right our of the frig when making pizzas?

I just want to perfect the pizza and make it a GREAT pizza and would love any advise i could get. Thanks !

This is the Flour we use



Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2013, 11:01:03 AM »
Well, your salt is 1%. That's very low and surely has something to do with the taste your missing.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2013, 11:26:56 AM »
Once done mixing , pull it out of bowl , cut , turn into balls , and let it sit outside for about an hour in room temps , then straight into the frig to use for the next day or two.

Since I didn't know you were talking about a commercial setting when I first read your original post, I didn't feel the need to say what I'm about to say.

I like that you scale and round the dough immediately after mixing, but I feel like you should put the dough in the cooler immediately after that, instead of letting it sit at room temperature for an hour. If you use dough boxes, the Dough Doctor would suggest that you cross-stack them in the cooler for a couple hours before nesting them (to cool the dough as quickly/efficiently as possible).

What I've said here has little to do with taste. It's more about consistency, but it may affect taste in some ways. To elaborate on what I said in my previous post, I'd say increase the salt to 1.75% (12 oz by weight).

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2013, 12:32:31 PM »
Also, after a little more scrutiny of your recipe, I'm thinking your yeast percentage is VERY low. I assume "wet yeast" is the kind of yeast that you need to use more of than either ADY or IDY. (I admit that I know essentially nothing about this kind of yeast, so hopefully someone else will either back me up or correct me.) Your yeast percentage is 0.25%, which is a pretty low percentage regardless of what type of yeast you use, but probably extremely low considering the type of yeast you're using. For comparison's sake, I tend to use 0.6% ADY for NY style dough that I consider best after two days, if not three days. To get comparable results with "wet yeast," I'm thinking you'd probably need to use something in the neighborhood of 1% (or 8 oz, by weight).

Offline kdefay

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2013, 12:52:35 PM »
I use .29% IDY on a 2-day cold ferment and it works extremely well.  I am also in a commercial setting and I will agree with what Ryan is saying.  Your salt % is too low.  I use 2%.  If you are using warm water to activate your cake yeast, that is fine, but I think you should try using cold water for the primary water weight.  I don't want my dough getting very active.  I make the balls and try to get them cold right away.  Due to space restrictions, I do not cross-stack my boxes.  I just stack them up on their shelf and I see no negative results from that at all. I also don't see any reason to leave the balled dough out at room temp.  Mine go into dough boxes and then right into the refrigerator for their 2-day ferment.  Let all the work happen in the cooler.

I would highly recommend converting your formula into percents instead of relying on volume.  It allows for easy fine-tuning to get you to the crust that you are searching for.  Also, most of the people here work in baker's percents, so you are likely to get more advice if we don't have to do the conversions ourselves.  If you need help doing that, there are many people here who are very helpful in that regard.  I made an excel worksheet to do all my calculations for me.  I just enter the # of dough balls I want for my different sizes of pizzas, and it tells me exactly how much I need to weigh out for each ingredient to get the dough I need.  It makes things so easy!

Good luck!

Kirk
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 12:54:28 PM by kdefay »

Offline Demce

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2013, 01:05:33 PM »
I will bump up thr salt , how is my sugar and oil levels tho? Should I add more on them or les or keep it where it is ? Thanks. 

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2013, 01:50:18 PM »
I think your sugar and oil quantities look fine. I currently prefer no sugar in my NY style, but my tastes change sometimes, as does my idea of what constitutes good aesthetics. Your sugar percentage (if your measurement is expressed in weight) is 1%. I'd say that's a little on the high end for NY style, but definitely very acceptable.

Here's the formula I came up with for your dough (assuming your oz measurements are all by weight):

100% Flour
??% Water
0.25% Wet Yeast
1% Sugar
1% Salt
0.5% Oil (EDIT: 1% Oil)

If your ounce measurements are volumetric ounces, then my formula translation above is wrong and useless. (EDIT: Strikethrough text is because Demce reveals in the next post that measurements expressed in oz are oz by weight, not volume.)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 11:37:50 AM by Aimless Ryan »

Offline Demce

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2013, 01:55:00 PM »
I weigh everything on the same scale I weight my dough balls when I cut them.  I will measure the water as well as I have some big big buckets that measure in liters etc.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2013, 02:39:00 PM »
Dammit, I just lost everything I'd written in what was supposed to be this response because I accidentally clicked on a link or something. I didn't have any of it copied in my clipboard, either. Grrr.

I expect you to reveal that your water weighs at least 31 lbs (62%) but probably not more than 32 lbs (64%). Anyway, here's what I'd suggest trying:

1. As kdefay said, use colder water (if it's OK to do that with your yeast, which I assume it is).
2. Increase your salt by at least 50% of the current measurement, or maybe even 100%. That takes you to 1.5% to 2% salt, in bakers' percents.
3. Try doubling your yeast at first. If that leads to good results, consider tripling your current yeast measurement with one dough batch. This might give you some of the flavor you feel like you're missing, in two ways: 1) Flavor from the yeast itself, and 2) Flavor from fermentation.
4. Put dough balls in the cooler immediately after scaling and rounding.
5. Take dough out of the cooler at least an hour before you intend to use it.
6. Listen to Scott if he shows up and comments in this thread.

I bet there was something else I wanted to say.

Offline Demce

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2013, 03:24:36 PM »
Man you guys are a really really big help ! I appreciate everything and I will do all yhe adjustments as stated. Yes I have heard wet yeast needs to be doubled or tripled due to its characteristics .. I am fine with using cold water and letting it rise in the frig.