Author Topic: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough  (Read 5288 times)

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scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2013, 08:41:10 PM »
I just looked again at those two pics you posted. I totally forgot that post was from you. So I guess I was pretty much wrong in every way.

If you're talking about your preliminary assessments in the other thread, you were a bit off the mark, but being able to judge a pizza from a couple photos is incredibly difficult, so I wouldn't sweat it. What's more important, though, is your advice you've given here, which, as I said before, was spot on.  If you read my post, I'm pretty much reiterating what you and Kirk recommended.  I don't think we all agree on when to add the oil, but that's neither here nor there :)

Just to be clear, Scott, did you come up with a different calculation than me, or did you misread my formula translation? Because my math came up with about 0.5% oil, not 1%.

I googled 'cup of oil weight' and came up with .475 lbs.  .475, roughly speaking, is 1% of 50 lb.

Demce, try to get  your water weight. If you can't physically weigh the water or don't have markers on the buckets, try to get the dimensions of the buckets. Water is a big deal.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 09:05:57 PM by scott123 »


Offline Demce

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2013, 10:23:20 PM »
Okay so I measured the water weight and im right at 30lbs for a 50lb bag. Ive always felt the dough needed a Lil more water so how far off am I?

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2013, 10:28:28 PM »
I googled 'cup of oil weight' and came up with .475 lbs.  .475, roughly speaking, is 1% of 50 lb.

Yeah, I think you're right. Apparently when I was looking at my spreadsheet earlier, my brain mistakenly interpreted the "0.48 lbs" cell as "0.48%," when the actual percentage cell told me"0.95%," which is pretty much what you said.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2013, 10:34:45 PM »
Okay so I measured the water weight and im right at 30lbs for a 50lb bag. Ive always felt the dough needed a Lil more water so how far off am I?

You're at 60% hydration. That's pretty low for All Trumps and 1% oil. If you double the oil, as Scott suggested, I think I'd suggest another half-pound of water to a pound of water. That would be 61% or 62%, respectively. Other members would likely take the hydration a little higher.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2013, 11:20:22 PM »
You're at 60% hydration. That's pretty low for All Trumps and 1% oil. If you double the oil, as Scott suggested, I think I'd suggest another half-pound of water to a pound of water. That would be 61% or 62%, respectively. Other members would likely take the hydration a little higher.

With All Trumps, I think 62% is about as low as I'd go.

Offline Demce

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2013, 11:25:21 PM »
I have never tried anything different then All Trumps , it seems like a lot of people here use King Arthur ?  I am very open minded , passionate about food , i work as a perfectionist , and i enjoy cooking a lot . I thrive to learn as much as i can and be the best i can so i am always open to ideas .

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2013, 11:47:15 PM »
Demce, King Arthur is more of a home baking ingredient. It's more geared towards home bakers that don't have access to commercial flour.

Whereabouts are you in NJ?  You can get a single bag of Spring King (for testing) at Dawn Foods in Edison.  Full Strength seems to be available at most Restaurant Depots. You could also talk to your distributor and see if they add a bag of either to your order.

By the way, Full Strength isn't really all that experimental.  The difference is almost as slight as going from 60% to 62% water.  It's just a small tweak. As you move towards better pizza, with the exception of oven setup, the steps are not that significant. Every little bit helps, though. Full Strength gives you almost the exact same pizza- it just provides you with a little more room for error when it comes to mixing.

Offline Demce

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2013, 12:11:05 AM »
I am in NNJ by Wayne . My food dist is Roma Foods , but i will stick with All Trumps if there really is not much of a difference. I just wasnt sure since i never used it before.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2013, 12:20:17 AM »
With All Trumps, I think 62% is about as low as I'd go.

I've never thought about this before now, but I wonder if my preference for a NY style dough with lower hydration than what most other members prefer has anything to do with my water. That is, I wonder if my water makes the dough softer/wetter than most other people's dough. I live in the country and have well water. I've made pizza in at least a few other places, but never using my equipment or even my normal ingredients, so there's no way to compare my normal dough to dough I've made elsewhere.

I'm curious now. And actually I may soon have an answer to this question, as I may soon be moving into town (Columbus).
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 12:33:24 AM by Aimless Ryan »
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2013, 12:41:28 AM »
I am in NNJ by Wayne . My food dist is Roma Foods , but i will stick with All Trumps if there really is not much of a difference. I just wasnt sure since i never used it before.

Roma carries Full Strength:

http://www.romafood.com/Products/Pages/ProdSearch.aspx

GoldMeda
Flour Full Strength
031677
1 50 lb

I'm trying to downplay the difference because switching flour can be a little intimidating for pizzeria owners, but, if you truly are a perfectionist, you want the slight improvement from Full Strength. Trust me, it will not involve any kind of major overhaul- the water you're at now should be just about perfect (60%-62%) and the results will speak for themselves.

If you're still on the fence, taste one of your present slices cold. Regardless of one's personal feelings about cold pizza, great pizza, even when cold, shouldn't make your jaw hurt chewing it.  If the All Trumps crust is still tender when cold, then you're doing the right thing with it.  But if it isn't, seriously, try out the Full Strength.

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2013, 12:47:40 AM »
I've never thought about this before now, but I wonder if my preference for a NY style dough with lower hydration than what most other members prefer has anything to do with my water. That is, I wonder if my water makes the dough softer/wetter than most other people's dough.

Ryan, the only water related theory that I completely subscribe to is the adverse impact of heavy chlorination.  Hard or soft water may impact the rate at which yeast grow, but that should be able to be compensated with yeast quantity adjustments, and, for those that are really paranoid, soft water can be hardened with supplementation.  None of what I'm describing should impact the wetness of your dough, though. Is your water especially soft? It's possible that the minerals in hard water, like salt, have a tightening/gluten forming effect, but I think that's a bit of a long shot.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2013, 01:25:06 AM »
Is your water especially soft? It's possible that the minerals in hard water, like salt, have a tightening/gluten forming effect, but I think that's a bit of a long shot.

I'm not really sure what constitutes either hard or soft water, but one thing I've noticed many times is that it takes me a lot longer to dry off after showers at home than it takes pretty much anywhere else. I don't know if that has anything to do with the hardness or softness of the water, but I've always felt like it may mean the water here is softer than the water in most other places. Oh yeah, and it tends to be much easier to get soap to lather here than elsewhere.

I've always felt like something about the water here makes my NY style dough more extensible than similar doughs I've either handled or witnessed being handled by others. For years I thought it was something about how I made my dough, until eventually the idea just kinda left my consciousness. Until tonight, I guess.

I competed in PMQ's Largest Dough Stretch competition in 2004 and 2005, and the competition dough was unbelievably elastic (to me). I've never been able to make dough that felt anything like that dough. And I've tried, too. Because after what happened in 2004 (which you can witness in Pizza! The Movie), I wanted to prepare myself as much as possible in 2005 for similarly unstretchable dough. Unbelievably, the dough they gave us in 2005 was harder to stretch than the 2004 dough. I still have no idea how they made this dough so difficult to stretch.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline waltertore

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2013, 07:48:21 AM »
Ryan:  I am on well water at the house.  It has a water softener on it and it softens with salt.  I think there is a higher sodium rate in softened water tha city water due to all the salt is not filtered out?   It sounds like your well water has a softener too.  Most well water is hard and full of minerals.  The aquafier we are over gives us really good tasting water but our next door and across the street neighbors complain of sulphur/rust in their water.  This is Judy and my first time living "in the county".  I was paranoid as heck having a private well.  I made sure it tasted good and had an in depth chemical anaylisis done on it.  I was worried we sat on a cancer causing something-my NJ parinoia with pollution :)  Around the corner from us is a NJ couple whose wife actually lived in the town I went to high school in.  The husband was one of the "whiz kids" from the 50's when the USA freaked out when sputnik was launched and combed all public schools for bright math/science kids.  He has had quite a career and is a wealth of knowledge on most any topic.  He explained the depth of the well will change quality-if you sink it at depth where there is a large deposit of iron you got rust, etc.  Our well is only about 30 feet deep and our neighbors are deeper and our aquifier is the result of an ancient river bed so the water passes through it real quick which explains why there weren't any serious bad health chemicals in the water.   We call our water "magic water".  It refreshes like none other we have had.  I am going to make some bread today with it.

At work we are on Newark city water. It is harder and chlorinated.  I really haven't found enough difference in either to make me wonder about dough differences.  At home I hand knead most of the time and at work use a hobart mixer.  I have lived in Santa Rosa Ca, Sebastopol CA, Austin TX, South Orange NJ, and here in OH making pizzas at home and in restaraunt settings and the only differences I have found following my recipe have been due to the flour and ovens used. Also all except here in OH were city water.  You should bring 5lbs of water by and we can do a side by side comparison or more convient, get some Columbus city water in a bucket and try it.  Back home the water thing use to be the standard answer to why NYC bagels/pizza were unique to the world.   Funny I never heard a NYC bakery swear the water made their bread so good  :D  Walter
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 08:33:28 AM by waltertore »

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2013, 11:36:57 AM »
Ryan, yup, that's soft water (propensity towards greater sudsing).  I've put in many hours researching hard and soft water's impact on dough and haven't gotten all that far. When I brought up the topic with Roberto Caporuscio, he told me 'hard soft? schmard schmoft' (or something to that effect  ;D ).

The tap water where I am is basically a swimming pool.  I don't really need to do much experimentation to know that the heavy chlorination is bad for my yeast. Chlorine's sole purpose in municipal water is to wipe out micro-organisms like yeast, and, at this level of concentration, it does it's job- too well.  If I boil it, I can drive the chlorine away, but then I have to give it time to cool.

Have you tried using bottled water?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 11:41:14 AM by scott123 »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2013, 12:33:04 PM »
One more thing: Occasionally all these characteristics suddenly change, making it difficult to get a good lather from soap. I assume these changes occur when the water softener needs salt, as these changes always seem to motivate my dad to purchase several large bags of salt. That is, I assume these changes correlate with our plumbing system dispensing hard water as it naturally arrives from the well, rather than dispensing water that has been softened. (Yes, I live with my parents, and no, my dad and I don't really speak to each other.)

Have you tried using bottled water?

No, I guess I'm more inclined to just make the best of what's typically available to me; similar to how I make almost all of my NY style pizzas in a grill, rather than in my oven, even though it's impossible to get anywhere near enough top heat in the grill. I am thinking about filling up a container with Columbus water, though, next time I go into town, then using it to make some dough (probably just for handing purposes, since I'm currently not allowing myself to eat pizza).
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2013, 01:42:15 PM »
No, I guess I'm more inclined to just make the best of what's typically available to me; similar to how I make almost all of my NY style pizzas in a grill, rather than in my oven, even though it's impossible to get anywhere near enough top heat in the grill.

I'm veering a bit further off topic here, but Kenji's experiments with the Kettle Pizza went a long way in questioning the importance of thermal mass in an oven ceiling.  Because of the danger of melting, I'm typically pretty aluminum foil phobic when it comes to oven mods, but, in a grill setting, you're never going to hit 1100, so I would play around with some kind of low, heavy duty aluminum foil ceiling (inside the lid). Put a couple holes in the center of the foil so the hot air flows up and around the pizza. Ideally,  where the foil meets the sides of the lid you'll want it pretty air tight, so you're forcing everything up the middle.

It can't hurt to try.

Offline waltertore

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2013, 12:59:19 PM »
Hi Scott:  I see you reccomend oil on an earlier post on this thread.  I was raised with just water, yeast, salt, flour, and prefer it this way over adding oil- more crisp on the outside crust.  I run my blodgetts at 570 which is about the limit for even cooking top/bottom with a nice crisp on the crust.  I know ther are a ton of variations on the NY Style pie.  Are you dead set on oil in your dough or just responding to the original post question?    I never tried soybean oil.  I have  used Olive oil.  I save my soybean oil for making Jimmy Buffs hot dogs  :) .   Walter
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 01:14:37 PM by waltertore »


scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2013, 01:50:18 PM »
Walter, I'm dead set on oil :)

At least, personally.  As far as the authenticity of oil goes, that's a difficult question.  The most vocal anti-oil delegation is the legendary coal places. Patsy's, Lombardi's, Grimaldi's, John's, Tottono's- none of those guys will touch oil.  It's important to bear in mind that when talking about NY style pizza, I don't include coal in that spectrum.  For me, coal is pre-NY style pizza or Neo Neapolitan. Once you start looking at the (for the most part) less legendary NY style slice places, I don't have any first hand experience with formulas, but, based upon how oil effects crumb and appearance, I'm relatively certain that the vast majority of them use at least some oil.  There is a quantity of oil, that, as you approach it (4% to 5%), the oil becomes discernible in the crust.  I've never witness that in a NY area pizza.  A little oil (1% to 3%) seems to be the norm, though.

But oil definitely promotes more even browning- and, in my experience, doesn't seem to impact crust crispiness all that much.  In fact, for a while I thought oil might actually promote crispiness, but now I'm not certain.  Deep frying seems to produce crunchy food.

The extreme of oil is the kind of golden brown you see with chain pizza.  I'm not emulating/striving for that. But there is a middle ground where you get a bit more even browning with oil. That's, for the most part, what I grew up with.

Since NY was born from coal, and coal was no oil, I think it's safe to assume that as you go back in time, no oil was more prevalent.  Perhaps, since you pre-date me by a couple years, no oil pies were more the norm when you were growing up here.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2013, 02:01:40 PM »
[I think you answered at least one of my questions while I was typing, Scott. Regardless, I'm gonna leave my post as originally written.]

I was wondering a little about what Walter said, too, Scott. One thing I considered was that maybe you recommended using 2% oil specifically because we're talking about All Trumps here. As I said, I use about the same oil percentage in my NY style dough, but that may be specifically because I use All Trumps. Whenever I start making pizza again, I intend to get a bag of slightly lower protein flour than All Trumps--something from Scott's list of good NY style flours--and try doing dough without oil for a while.

Walter, oil is one of the things I thought about as I ate the two slices you gave me. I think I already knew your dough has no oil before you gave me the slices, and I think the slices you gave me were made of the lower-protein flour (Full Strength?). I can't say I noticed any toughness in your crust, which is something I would say was very present in my All Trumps crusts before I started adding a little oil (in addition to cutting the mix time considerably).
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2013, 02:28:09 PM »
Ryan, I think that I answered your questions, but one thing that I'd like to add is that, at the bake times were talking about here, oil is really not a big deal.  One of us could probably detect the difference between a 0% and 2% oil crust, but I highly doubt most of the public can.

We're not really talking about huge differences in the dough- a little softer and some more even/less splotchy browning- no more than that.

When you get into coal oven bake times, oil becomes a much bigger deal.  At that speed, oil can accelerate browning so much that the crust can burn if you're not watching closely (even closer than you're normally watch a coal baked pie).  This is why Neapolitans avoid oil in their dough so religiously.  4-7 minute bakes, though, are different animals. In this universe, I personally think oil helps a tiny bit- but it's really neither here nor there- and I would never point the finger at anyone who eschewed it. There are some aspects to NY style pizza that are authentic and inauthentic, but this isn't one of them.

Btw, Walter, thanks for the 570 figure- that's good to know.  What bake time are you seeing at 570?  About 6 minutes?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 02:38:33 PM by scott123 »

Offline waltertore

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2013, 04:27:25 PM »
Scott:  I will have to add a bit of oil to my dough and see what I think. It has been years since I added oil.  I don't know how long our bake time is. I just take it out when its done.  I will have to time one tomorrow.   I get even browning without any oil.  I am very sensitive to oil in dough.  We do a Italian bread I learned from my mother with fresh rosemary, roasted garlic, and potatoes.  It has very little oil in it but I can really notice it in texture. 

Ryan:  I am a cold pizza lover and like it to be easy on the teeth with toughness.  I find when I use AT less kneading helps - 7 minutes.  I also use cold water for 48 hour ferments.   I take the dough out 3-4 hours before use and there is not any noticable toughness in the finished pie.  If the pie snaps back on the peel and requires lots of additional stretching before going in the oven I can count on the dough being tough.  This is usually due to over mixing.  I have learned to back way off AT.  With that approach it is fine to use.  I have to go 40 miles to RD for FS so we run out regularly and use AT which comes on our weekly GFS truck delivery.  We use AT for our bagels and mix it 10 minutes.  With FS I use, at this time of year, straight cold tap water and it stays in the cooler 2-4 days.  Friday dough is real good on monday.   I take it out of the cooler 3-4 hours before use.  It stretches easy and keeps it size on the peel.  That is a 10 minute mix on the hobart. 

Since joining this forum I have become a lot more aware of temps.  I took one today on a batch of FS before it went in the cooler.  It was at 74 degrees.  That is a temp I like for 2-3  day ferments.  I hear 80 hear a lot but that is to warm for me and the dough starts to blow out quicker  once out of the cooler.  We get good rise on the bakes at 70-75 degrees.  On my french bread I like it around 80 degrees after kneading is done. 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 04:43:04 PM by waltertore »

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2013, 04:49:50 PM »
I am a cold pizza lover and like it to be easy on the teeth with toughness.

Me too! :)

I've never had any issue with AT with a pie that's still warm, but, once it's cold, if I kneaded it too much at the onset, I have a tenderness issue. The more that I worked with AT, the more that I found that my ideal kneading window was very small- too much kneading and the crust would be tough, but too little, the dough wouldn't be mixed enough and I'd end up with wet/dry areas of the dough that would have a tendency to either tear or get stuck on the peel.  The target was just too small and it was causing a lot of stress. Once I switched to Spring King/Full Strength, that all went away.  I've got a target as big as a house.  I like to underknead for other reasons, but, it's good to know that if I knead too much, my texture won't suffer.

One caveat: my issues with AT most likely have a bake time component.  When I've worked with AT with weaker ovens and longer bakes, it's had less tendency to be tough.  This is probably why AT is popular around here- nobody does a quick bake any more.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 05:17:45 PM by scott123 »

Offline waltertore

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2013, 06:01:30 PM »
Scott:  You are awakening all kinds of old taste memories for me - thanks!  Being gone from NJ since the late 70s' as a resident, it is easy to forget the pies of my youth.  I wish I could get FS via GFS.  I am going to contact my rep and see if he can get it for me regularly.   They are hit and miss with GM flours.  I tried to get Harvest King from them as a special order and was told I would have to buy like 150 bags minimum.  Conversely, I special order GM stone ground fine whole wheat flour from them with no bag minimum. As you have mentioned, the deck ovens are no good at full cranked temps.  I wonder how places like Difara's in NYC claim to bake with ovens wide open.  They are standard design deck ovens from what I can tell. I have never been there so have no idea if that statement is true.  I have worked with BP ovens and the top/bottom heat control doesn't help with even top/bottom cooking at high temps.  I spent a couple days with the BP forno classico with 120k btu's underneath and 20k btu's on the back wall along with stone lined ceiling, still would not do even bakes when cranked all the way.  The top/bottom air controls didn't seem to help any. The dough I was using was not mine and contained oil/sugar and the doughs were not up to being stretched thin. So maybe with my dough, no oil/sugar, those ovens would work cranked.  I would like to bring a box of  my dough balls, cheese, sauce, and try it in those ovens.  They will be shut down from Nov. 20th - thanksgiving so maybe they will let me play around with them some.  One day I got a talkative employee at Star tell me they bake at 450 degrees.  I have tried to do their style pie with the pan/oil at my normal temp bu the bottoms always burned.  I did one last week at 450 on the bottom oven and finished it on the top at 570ish.  It came out great but I know they don't rotate ovens. I think the 500 degree temp is the norm for many shops and some push it to the temp I do.   I have to watch things closely once over 550 degrees but the final dough result with the blodgett 1000's is even, crisp, and soft on the inside.  I am going to make a batch of dough with oil in it and set one oven to my normal temp and one to 500 and see what happens.  I say I am going to do this and I will but I don't  know when.  Our place is so busy everyday I rarely get time to experiment.  Today we made 6,000 cookies, 600 bagels, 20 pizzas, and 30 bags of dog biscuits.  Tomorrow looks a bit slower and if I can I will make a small batch  and let it ferment a couple days.   Walter
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 06:13:30 PM by waltertore »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2013, 09:29:34 PM »
Ron Molinaro (ilpizzaiolo) posted some time ago at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg9384/topicseen.html#msg9384 that the addition of oil to dough occurred when gas ovens started to replace coal ovens.

As for Dom DeMarco at DiFara's, it has always been my understanding that his deck ovens were modified to operate at a higher temperature than normal. I believe that his son mentioned something along those lines in a video in which he was interviewed.

Peter

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2013, 10:33:42 AM »
Ron Molinaro (ilpizzaiolo) posted some time ago at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg9384/topicseen.html#msg9384 that the addition of oil to dough occurred when gas ovens started to replace coal ovens.

As for Dom DeMarco at DiFara's, it has always been my understanding that his deck ovens were modified to operate at a higher temperature than normal. I believe that his son mentioned something along those lines in a video in which he was interviewed.

Thanks, Peter, that quote from Ron makes a lot of sense.  The only thing that I'd add is that, based upon the increased power of vintage ovens that I've come across, I have a theory that when deck ovens first emerged after the war, they were not that much weaker/the bake times were not that much longer than coal. If that was true, than I don't think the move to incorporate oil was that sudden, and most likely occurred over a period of years- and possibly even decades.

Re; DiFaras, if you google 'difara upskirt' and 'difara undercrust' you'll see a fairly substantial number of (imo) burnt undercrusts.  Based on this, I believe that Dom modified his oven to work at a higher temperature (most likely a thermostat mod), but didn't take steps to correct the typical heat imbalance that occurs in gas deck ovens at higher temps.

Dom talks about his ovens reaching 1000 degrees and I've heard other numbers like 800 degrees being thrown around by some reputable sources.  The oven is old, and probably a bit more powerful than most, but I think these publicized specs are driven more by mystique than by fact- that a legendary pizzeria must have a legendary superpowerful oven.

At the end of the day, I don't think there's anything too special about DiFara's oven.  It's just a fairly typical old gas oven, that, unmodified, went to 650, and, with a thermostat mod, hits the standard thermostat mod temp of 700-725. From the photos of the pizzas and the videos I've seen, I'm relatively certain that's what they're working with.