Author Topic: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough  (Read 4400 times)

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scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2013, 11:55:23 AM »
Walter, the top/bottom heat controls, as you've figured out, are pretty much worthless for pizza.  By their nature, gas deck ovens, because the burner is below the stone, are almost always going to favor bottom heat over the top.  The top/bottom heat controls are just sliders that open and close the hole going from the bottom chamber to the top. They're not made to add to the top heat, just limit it by closing the hole. This ability to decrease top heat might be beneficial at lower temps, such as those for baking bread, but it's useless for high heat pizza.

I guess, in theory, it could be possible to build an oven with enough deflection that the top heat is too powerful at pizza baking temps, and these top/bottom heat controls might make an actual difference by limiting the heat going to the top, but, in practice, I've never seen an oven with sufficient deflection to fit this scenario.

Quote
I spent a couple days with the BP forno classico with 120k btu's underneath and 20k btu's on the back wall along with stone lined ceiling, still would not do even bakes when cranked all the way

That's disappointing to hear, Walter. Considering the cost of that oven, for people purchasing it looking for fast bake times, that's got to hurt. I think a big player in that scenario is the deck material.  It's most likely cordierite.  The marsals have a top/bottom heat balance advantage in that regard because they're using lower conductivity fibrament. I know of no one using the Marsal MBs cranked, but I'm certain that they keep their balance at a higher temp than the BP FC just due to hearth material alone.

I know that, at this point, you're not in a position to make recommendations at the place with the PB FC, but, should that change, you might suggest either fibrament or possibly even Whitacre Greer firebricks, which, according to their specs, have even lower conductivity than fibrament.

I know we've talked about stones for your oven before- I have a hunch fibrament might help you go higher than 570, but your ancient asbestos stones are a bit of a wild card, so I can't say for certain.

Oil/sugar makes no impact on heat balance.  If the oil/sugar doughs baked up too quickly on the bottom at the university, your non-oil dough will do the same.

You're on your own, for now, with Star.  Embarrassingly enough, I have yet to go there.  Soon.  Even after a trip, that style is way outside my wheelhouse.  I think Adam Kuban is making inroads on bar pizza- not Star specifically, but you might pick up some things from his blog:

http://www.adamkuban.com/kublog/

Full Strength, by the way, is not in any way what you'd consider to be specialty flour. As you know General Mills is absolutely massive, and, although FS doesn't do the same business as AT, FS should be widely available.  I can see GFS not carrying it, but any distributor worth their salt should have no problem getting it for you.


Offline waltertore

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2013, 11:58:52 AM »
Thanks for that info Pete and Scott.   I timed a pizza today.  I did it after we had run 8 pies through one oven (4-18" pies each run will fit each oven).  I clocked it at 6:38 seconds.   I know the first pie run goes a bit faster(forgot to time until the 2nd run) but the recovery time on our ovens is pretty good if you don't open the door more than needed.   The 6:38 pie had an even light browning on the crust and the underside not burned but browned.  It had a crunch to it and soft on the inside.  The temperature gun I had read 566 degrees.  We are in a slight lull and they have been empty for about 5 minutes.   I forgot my camera.  walter

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2013, 12:25:39 PM »
Walter, that timing is as I expected. Thanks for taking the time to clock that.

I know you're very happy with your present product- as you should be, and I don't think the oven mods we've discussed (lowered ceiling/different stones) and the possibly 1 or 2 minute trim in baking time those mods will produce are going to change your pizzas dramatically, but, imo, it's worth playing around with, just to see the difference. You'll lose some crunch- which might end up being unacceptable for you, but you also might gain a little more puff.

I know Norma is at about the same bake time at her stand, and, while, at home, she's done faster bakes that she's enjoyed, personally, in her Blackstone. That being said, she doesn't want to mess with her oven- and I can fully understand that.

Offline waltertore

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2013, 12:44:21 PM »
Walter, that timing is as I expected. Thanks for taking the time to clock that.

I know you're very happy with your present product- as you should be, and I don't think the oven mods we've discussed (lowered ceiling/different stones) and the possibly 1 or 2 minute trim in baking time those mods will produce are going to change your pizzas dramatically, but, imo, it's worth playing around with, just to see the difference. You'll lose some crunch- which might end up being unacceptable for you, but you also might gain a little more puff.

I know Norma is at about the same bake time at her stand, and, while, at home, she's done faster bakes that she's enjoyed, personally, in her Blackstone. That being said, she doesn't want to mess with her oven- and I can fully understand that.

Scott:  I will  You should try star.  It is just down the road from you.  It is not NY but very unique IMO. Go with the cheese.  Thanks for the link.  I thought my recent attempt at a star pie was close.  Close enough.  I am not into making a new dough specific for it.  Our dough worked fine.  Walter
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 03:04:31 PM by waltertore »

Offline waltertore

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2013, 03:04:00 PM »
Scott: I talked to my GFS rep and they do not carry FS. GFS stinks overall.  Their prices are high and the availability of stuff is so swiss cheese it is frustrating.  The 2 flours I really want, Harvest King and FS, are not available in less than  50 case orders.   Heck that is bigger than our walk in storeroom :)  RD is 40 miles away.   I am contacting sysco and see what they carry.  The asbestos in my oven stones creates better heat retention/displacement than the new materials.  I have heard from some oldtimers that the old stones in my ovens are worth their weight in gold to some.  I turned the ovens off an hour ago and they are still hot enough to cook a pie.  I believe the stones have a lot to do with not having to rotate pies.  We get pretty much even browning with no rotation.  There is not a lot of variation of temperature within the oven when it is up and running to temp.   Walter

scott123

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2013, 04:40:24 PM »
Walter, asbestos definitely has thermodynamic properties that nothing else can match, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if those were one-of-a-kind stones and highly treasured by those that still have them.

Sysco should have the FS.

Are there any other distributors in your area?  Where are the pizzerias and bakeries getting their flour from? You may not have huge flour demands, but you should still be going through enough of it to deal with your typical mom & pop pizzeria distribution channel. Is there a Dawn near you?  What about U.S. Food? If you have inclinations towards eventually opening a shop, you can't start developing relationships with distributors too soon.

It sounds like you have a pretty wide range of flour needs.  You definitely want 14% protein flour (AT) for your bagels, and, for most cookies AP (11.8%ish), is fine, but I've found some cookies do better with the delicateness you get from pastry flour, and, if you ever bake pies, you definitely want pastry flour for those.  And then there's pizza, which, as I've said, seems happiest around 13% (FS).

What are you using for your cookies now?  AP?  Since you're going to need AT for bagels anyway, perhaps you could hit the happy 13%ish (FS) place with an AT/something blend.  You'd be diluting the bromate in the AT with either AP or pastry, so, ideally you'd want to use pastry, since the lower protein would allow you use to less, but if you had to blend it with AP, AT+AP is still better than AT.

Ideally, sysco will have FS, and that will be that, but the fewer variety of flours you have the less chances there will be for your students to grab the wrong flour by accident.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 04:42:24 PM by scott123 »

Offline waltertore

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2013, 04:54:47 PM »
Scott:  All the blodgetts from that era had the asbesctos in them.  Most all broke and were replaced with the newer stones.  I told the movers that they had to treat those stones like fine china.  We use AP flour for cookies, brownies, apple pie crust.  Believe it or not we get a light flakey crust with AP and our cookies and brownies are in constant demand.  Using real shell eggs, pure vanilla, unsalted butter, cocoa, belguim chocolate, is something that is becoming a rare thing.  I have each flour bin labeled and my kids learn which is which.  We just starting using Amish stone ground organic whole wheat flour for bagels for Denison University.  It looks  a lot like our GM whole wheat flour that we use for dog biscuits, and school approved healthy cookies that we sell to our district and Granville school district.  That amounts to about 6,000 cookies a week.  It took a couple months for the Bon Appetit person who handles the artisan to farmer relations to get with the Amish farmer and have it ground very fine.  I hate a 100% whole wheat bagel but it is work and they like it so what the hell.

You would get sick to your stomach if you tried the pizza out here.  I have no idea where most people get their stuff.  the closest to an a pie I could eat if it was the last food on earth, uses AT.  I know the owner.   I have a call into Sysco.  I will go with them first because they make a huge delivery every week to the central kitchen at our district.  They are a reheat/steam/open can operation and make all the food for the district cafeterias and are located about 50 feet from our room. we make a bigger mess everyday than they do because everything they do is frozen or in a can.   I can piggyback my small delivery on with theirs for no delivery charge.   Luckily I got a grant for a brand new van last year.  I take it to Columbus once a month for 7/11, FS, and other stuff that GFS doesn't carry.  RD stopped carrying Harvest King so I am hoping Sysco has it.  If I do open a small pizzeria here hopefully I will find some distributor that has what  I need.  Thanks for your support!  Walter 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 04:57:36 PM by waltertore »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2013, 08:17:04 PM »
With All Trumps, I think 62% is about as low as I'd go.

Today I made my first batch of dough in a few months. Since I hadn't read this thread in a while, I couldn't remember the numbers that had been discussed here, but I decided to go with 62% hydration, 1.58% oil, and 1.75% salt (with All Trumps flour). I decreased my ADY percentage a hair, from 0.60% to 0.55%, specifically because of some of the things I remember being discussed in this thread.

So anyway, the way my dough turned out, I have to agree with what Scott said in the quoted text. Although I'm sure the dough will feel a little softer by the time I use it, I felt like this dough was almost too stiff for NY style as I scaled and rounded the dough balls.

Since I made three dough balls, I intend to use one dough ball each of the next three days (24 hours, 48 hours, 72 hours). I'm also gonna attempt to make a sauce similar to Walter's sauce, with 7/11, a little oregano, a little garlic, and probably a little dry basil (since I don't have any fresh basil).

For the first time ever, I'm gonna use cheese that has been frozen. I've had a bag of Grande mozzarella in the freezer since about August, and I'm very curious to find out how this cheese turns out compared to the other five bags from the case, which were never frozen. I'll also be using Ezzo GiAntonio pepperoni that has been in the freezer for just as long as the cheese. And unlike how I normally do NY style, I also intend to bake these pizzas in the oven instead of the grill.

I'm excited to make a NY style pizza without also being distracted by making three other styles of pizza at the same time. It's been a long time since I've been able to focus on this style of pizza. I figure I might make one each day until I use up all my cheese.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline kdefay

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Re: Looking for some help on steps of making pizza dough
« Reply #58 on: November 26, 2013, 08:46:13 PM »
Any progress reports, Demce?  Interested to know how things are going.  Seems like this thread has gone off into a different direction.
The USA, Myanmar, and Liberia are the three remaining countries in the world who do not use the metric system.  That's some fine company to keep!!

Buy a scale, think in grams, and welcome to the 21st century!!


 

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