Author Topic: Very satisfied - please comment  (Read 6196 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2013, 02:58:30 PM »
Your English is much better than most natural-born Americans. Also, I never even would have thought twice about your misuse of the word 'novice.' To me it actually seemed like the right word, although I guess it may not have been. (I raced BMX when I was a kid, and the different competetive levels were designated "Beginner," "Novice," "Expert," and "Pro." As you surely already figured out, Beginner was the lowest level, followed by Novice, Expert, and Pro. Consequently, I never interpret "novice" as meaning the same thing as "beginner.")
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2013, 08:05:33 PM »
Ok, so I managed to get some more temp out of my oven. The thermostat lists the max temp as 250 (482 Fahrenheit), but there is a little above that which isn't labeled. Now I have a max temp of about 265 Celsius (509 Fahrenheit). The pizza now seems to be cooked about 2 minutes earlier if that makes sense, and the crust also seems to be a bit more thoroughly cooked.

Unfortunately I didn't take many pics. The bottom was nicely and evenly browned.

The first two pics are made with a flash, and the third one without a flash. The flash makes the crust seem extremely white... but it isn't like that all.

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #52 on: November 21, 2013, 08:11:18 PM »
Things to note:

1.) I think I topped the pizza with too much cheese. I used about 200 grams for a 14" almost-NY-style pizza. Isn't this too much cheese?

2.) While making the dough, I completely left the oil out by mistake. To be honest, I didn't notice much (if any) difference in the taste. Perhaps it would have made the dough a bit easier to stretch/form... but I didn't notice a difference in taste.

3.) I think I will use just a bit less yeast the next time.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2013, 11:33:23 PM »
My most recent 14" NY style pizzas had 220 grams of cheese. (Yes, I almost always weigh my cheese.) I thought that was about the right amount of cheese at the time, but now I think maybe it was a little light. It's a tough call because I baked these pizzas in a grill, where I don't get much top heat, which kinda requires me to go a little light on the cheese. You can see a couple of them here (Reply #54): http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26286.msg275274.html#msg275274.

Also, your latest pizza looks great.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 11:35:23 PM by Aimless Ryan »
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2013, 03:00:41 PM »
My most recent 14" NY style pizzas had 220 grams of cheese. (Yes, I almost always weigh my cheese.)

Do you also weigh the sauce? How much sauce do you use for 14" NY-style?

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Also, your latest pizza looks great.

Thanks. I'm improving. ;D

Here's another pic from today:

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2013, 03:49:06 PM »
Do you also weigh the sauce? How much sauce do you use for 14" NY-style?

Not with NY style, because I always assemble NY style pizzas on a peel. But I sometimes weigh sauce when I make styles of pizza that bake on a pan (or in a pan). I would probably give it a try with NY style if I had a scale that could easily accommodate a peel (and still be readable), but I don't have such a scale. Besides, unlike with cheese, having a specific intended sauce weight isn't such a big deal. Also, it's pretty easy to measure sauce accurately without weighing it.

I have a ladle that I use for NY style sauce (when I make several pizzas). I think it's a 4 oz ladle (by volume), which I think ends up being just about right for 14" NY style. (It's been a few months, so my memory is a little hazy right now.) However, I believe I tend to dip it so it ends up with more sauce than its intended capacity. So I'd say I probably do about 5 or 5-1/2 oz of sauce for a 14" NY style. Since sauce has about the same density (or specific gravity?) as water, that means 5-1/2 oz of sauce weighs about 157 grams.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2013, 03:55:33 PM »
Besides, unlike with cheese, having a specific intended sauce weight isn't such a big deal. Also, it's pretty easy to measure sauce accurately without weighing it.

Oh okay.

BTW, does the crumb in my last pic look alright?

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2013, 04:28:25 PM »
I like your crumb because while there is a little bit of noticeable structure to it, it doesn't look like the complex, open, irregular, wet-looking crumb many of this site's members seem to prefer. I'd say your outer crust (or rim) is probably a little thicker than a true NY style pizza, just as mine is, but you're still close.

There's one weird thing that I've begun to notice about your crusts: All of your crusts have some kind of slightly strange-looking characteristic to them (paleness or something, and/or a caky-looking texture), which I suspect probably comes from the type of flour you use. It would be cool if you could get your hands on a specific brand of flour that other members are familiar with. I'm willing to bet that if you were using one of the flours on scott123's list of acceptable NY style flours, your crust would not have this characteristic.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #58 on: November 22, 2013, 05:57:47 PM »
I like your crumb because while there is a little bit of noticeable structure to it, it doesn't look like the complex, open, irregular, wet-looking crumb many of this site's members seem to prefer. I'd say your outer crust (or rim) is probably a little thicker than a true NY style pizza, just as mine is, but you're still close.

I'll try to make the rim a little thinner the next time.

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There's one weird thing that I've begun to notice about your crusts: All of your crusts have some kind of slightly strange-looking characteristic to them (paleness or something, and/or a caky-looking texture), which I suspect probably comes from the type of flour you use.

I believe three factors might be involved:

1.) When stretching/forming the skin, I use more flour than I should. This flour stays on the crust and makes it look somewhat more white.

2.) The brand/type of flour.

3.) Kneading technique? I only have a hand mixer... so I use the hand mixer with dough hooks to combine all the dough ingredients together and then mix them for about a minute or two. After that, I knead by hand for about 10 minutes, divide the balls, knead each dough ball individually for about 1 minute, coat them with oil and store them in the fridge. I use this dough after at least 15 hours of cold fermentation.


In any case, I noticed that when I brush the crust with oil before baking, it seems to solve this "problem", but I haven't done that in a while.

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It would be cool if you could get your hands on a specific brand of flour that other members are familiar with. I'm willing to bet that if you were using one of the flours on scott123's list of acceptable NY style flours, your crust would not have this characteristic.

The problem is that these brands of flour aren't available here in Germany. I'm sure there are adequate brands here as well that would be suitable for NY-style, but until someone here on the forum who also lives in Germany gives me some insight, I'm stuck with the flour I currently use.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #59 on: November 22, 2013, 06:46:19 PM »
I believe three factors might be involved:

1.) When stretching/forming the skin, I use more flour than I should. This flour stays on the crust and makes it look somewhat more white.

I guess I was a little unclear in my previous post. I was talking about the inside of your crust; the crumb, I guess. It kinda has a muffin-like appearance to me, both in texture and in color. I don't think it's the result of anything you're doing. Rather, I suspect it's something about your flour. But I don't know enough about flour to really say anything more than I've already said.

The problem is that these brands of flour aren't available here in Germany. I'm sure there are adequate brands here as well that would be suitable for NY-style, but until someone here on the forum who also lives in Germany gives me some insight, I'm stuck with the flour I currently use.

Yeah, I know. I was just saying it would be great if at least one of the popular brands of flour in the United States was available to you. I mean, even when you mentioned specific flour types that are available to you, I had no idea how any of these flour types may compare to the types of flour that are available to me. For example, I identify flour by terms such as "high gluten flour," "bread flour," "all-purpose flour," and "pastry flour." For all I know, flour in Germany may be separated into the same types of flour, but they just use different terminology. Conversely, maybe the kinds of flour that are available to you are completely different than the types of flour that are available to me, which is why they're not identified with similar terms. I don't know, and I don't really feel like doing any homework right now.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2013, 07:24:37 PM »
Yeah, I know. I was just saying it would be great if at least one of the popular brands of flour in the United States was available to you. I mean, even when you mentioned specific flour types that are available to you, I had no idea how any of these flour types may compare to the types of flour that are available to me. For example, I identify flour by terms such as "high gluten flour," "bread flour," "all-purpose flour," and "pastry flour." For all I know, flour in Germany may be separated into the same types of flour, but they just use different terminology. Conversely, maybe the kinds of flour that are available to you are completely different than the types of flour that are available to me, which is why they're not identified with similar terms. I don't know, and I don't really feel like doing any homework right now.

Can you please give me the link for scott123's list of acceptable NY style flours? I can't seem to find it.

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #61 on: November 22, 2013, 07:29:47 PM »
Yulian, here is my list of flours. They combine what I consider to be the best of both worlds- low-ish protein (around 13%) + bromate:

Full Strength
Spring King
Occident
Pillsbury xxxx patent flour
King Midas Special
Superlative
Commander
Majestic
Springup
Perfect Diamond (I think this is 12.5%ish, but not sure)

Being in Germany, you won't be able to obtain bromated flour, but you should be able to find flour with 13% protein.  That's what I'd look for.

For what it's worth, I like this last crumb.  It looks a little low on the protein scale (maybe closer to 12%), but, all things considered, it looks pretty open/good.

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #62 on: November 22, 2013, 07:43:22 PM »
Just to clarify, you want 13% protein flour- not any of the flours on that list. I just provided the list since you asked for it.

Also, you want malted flour if you can find it (malted barley will be in the ingredients). If you can't find it, then you'll need to compensate with either a longer ferment or your own malt supplementation.

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #63 on: November 22, 2013, 07:49:50 PM »
For what it's worth, I like this last crumb.  It looks a little low on the protein scale (maybe closer to 12%), but, all things considered, it looks pretty open/good.
Thanks. Actually, it's only about 10% protein, and I never paid much attention to the actual number until now.

This is the flour I used: http://www.ichliebebacken.de/produkt/mehl/goldpuder-weizenmehl-type-550

BTW, "Eiweiß" means protein in german. So I think I'm doing a really good job considering the fact that it's only 10.6% protein! :o

LoL!

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #64 on: November 22, 2013, 07:55:46 PM »
That is a good job for 10.6% protein  ;D

I'm curious about something. Does your oven have a broiler (top element/top burner)?

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #65 on: November 22, 2013, 07:58:33 PM »
That is a good job for 10.6% protein  ;D

 ^^^

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I'm curious about something. Does your oven have a broiler (top element/top burner)?

Yes, but I've never once used it.

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #66 on: November 22, 2013, 08:55:59 PM »
Well, I bowed out of your initial stone inquiry thread because I wasn't certain what style you were shooting for, and even if you did state a preference, for a 482 oven, I don't know of any material that is guaranteed to give you great (ie fast) NY style results.

Now that you seem to be moving in a very NYish direction and can confirm 500 F.... that changes things a bit.  It won't be cheap, and it's a bit cutting edge/unproven, but for 500 F. I strongly suggest keeping your eye out for 3/8" (1 cm) or thicker aluminum plate.


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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #67 on: November 22, 2013, 09:32:08 PM »
BTW, "Eiweiß" means protein in german. So I think I'm doing a really good job considering the fact that it's only 10.6% protein! :o
Yulian,

If the specs for the flour are reciting protein content on a 0% moisture basis, as is common in Europe, then the comparable protein content on a 14% moisture basis could be over 11%. We would have to know the moisture content of the flour to do a more accurate calculation. Unfortunately, millers do not put the moisture basis on the flour bags. You would need the actual specs on the flour as held by the miller.

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #68 on: November 22, 2013, 09:32:58 PM »
Well, I bowed out of your initial stone inquiry thread because I wasn't certain what style you were shooting for, and even if you did state a preference, for a 482 oven, I don't know of any material that is guaranteed to give you great (ie fast) NY style results.

Now that you seem to be moving in a very NYish direction and can confirm 500 F.... that changes things a bit.  It won't be cheap, and it's a bit cutting edge/unproven, but for 500 F. I strongly suggest keeping your eye out for 3/8" (1 cm) or thicker aluminum plate.
Is there a cheaper steel-plate alternative with similar results?

BTW, could you please take a look at this thread of mine (regarding flour) and tell me what you think? http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,28675.0.html

It has to do with type 1050 flour... I haven't tried it yet just because it's a tiny bit darker than the other flour... but it's 12.1% protein. Would you try it if you were in my shoes?

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #69 on: November 22, 2013, 09:36:37 PM »
If the specs for the flour are reciting protein content on a 0% moisture basis, as is common in Europe, then the comparable protein content on a 14% moisture basis could be over 11%. We would have to know the moisture content of the flour to do a more accurate calculation. Unfortunately, millers do not put the moisture basis on the flour bags. You would need the actual specs on the flour as held by the miller.

Well in that case I guess I'm screwed, because I have no idea how to find that out. On the other hand, I'm extremely satisfied with my results so far, so I believe the best thing I can do is experiment with as many different flour types as possible. I have to, among other things, try these:

Flour type 812
Flour type 1050

There's also "Dinkelmehl 612" which has higher protein but it is spelt instead of wheat. I don't know how that would work for a pizza. ???

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #70 on: November 22, 2013, 09:50:41 PM »
Is there a cheaper steel-plate alternative with similar results?

BTW, could you please take a look at this thread of mine (regarding flour) and tell me what you think? http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,28675.0.html

It has to do with type 1050 flour... I haven't tried it yet just because it's a tiny bit darker than the other flour... but it's 12.1% protein. Would you try it if you were in my shoes?

More fiber = more bran = bad. Bran slices through gluten and inhibits oven spring.  You don't want anything in dough that limits volume. I wouldn't recommend the 1050.

Steel doesn't really start doing it's NY style magic until around 525.  There's oven tricks you can do to push your oven a bit further (such as place a frozen towel around the temperature probe), but if you want to avoid tricks, but still have fast bakes, I sincerely think aluminum is the answer.

Here, in the U.S., we've had people find aluminum plate for around $100 (75 Euros).  Steel varies, but, on average, I'd say people are finding it for around $60.  You can go for steel, but, imo, you'd be spending money on a hearth that wouldn't quite get you to where you want to be (NY wise), when that $60 would take you quite a ways towards the price of aluminum.

Google 'metal yourtown,' (or 'steel yourtown'/'aluminum yourtown'), see what comes up and make some calls. It can't hurt to get a price.

What are the dimensions of your oven shelf?

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #71 on: November 22, 2013, 10:14:24 PM »
More fiber = more bran = bad. Bran slices through gluten and inhibits oven spring.  You don't want anything in dough that limits volume. I wouldn't recommend the 1050.
What about the spelt flour (Dinkelmehl)? In one of my earlier posts I wrote Dinkelmehl Type 612, but it's actually Type 630: http://www.ichliebebacken.de/produkt/mehl/goldpuder-dinkelmehl-type-630

Supposedly it has 3,7% fiber and 12,4% protein.

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Steel doesn't really start doing it's NY style magic until around 525.  There's oven tricks you can do to push your oven a bit further (such as place a frozen towel around the temperature probe), but if you want to avoid tricks, but still have fast bakes, I sincerely think aluminum is the answer.
Tell me, would the aluminum make a better-tasting dough & crust, or is speed the only thing I would gain? Right now I cook my pizzas on the screen for about 10 minutes.

Quote
What are the dimensions of your oven shelf?
I have no idea really. Never measured it. This is my oven: http://www.gorenjegulf.ae/en/cooking/freestanding_cookers?c=186368

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #72 on: November 22, 2013, 11:14:07 PM »
We've had members play with spelt.  Much like we've had members play with whole wheat. There's nothing inherently wrong with either, but, imo, they're advanced pizzamaking because you have to compensate for the deficiencies of the flour.

When you expose pizza to intense heat, either through high temperature or conductive materials (such as steel and aluminum), the intense heat boils the water in the dough and causes a rapid expansion of steam (as well as a rapid expansion of the CO2 from the yeast).  This rapid expansion is oven spring and it gives the pizza superior volume.  Superior volume/greater puff, for many members, tastes better.  So a faster baked pizza is a tastier pizza (to a point). For the style you're currently making, 4 or 5 minutes should be the goal- and you'll never reach that goal with a screen.

Could you measure your oven shelf?  Size plays a factor in this style.

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Re: Very satisfied - please comment
« Reply #73 on: November 23, 2013, 07:30:59 PM »
We've had members play with spelt.  Much like we've had members play with whole wheat. There's nothing inherently wrong with either, but, imo, they're advanced pizzamaking because you have to compensate for the deficiencies of the flour.

So that means no spelt. ;D

Question: If I'm not able to find 13% protein flour, is there anything I can add to the flour to increase the protein?

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When you expose pizza to intense heat, either through high temperature or conductive materials (such as steel and aluminum), the intense heat boils the water in the dough and causes a rapid expansion of steam (as well as a rapid expansion of the CO2 from the yeast).  This rapid expansion is oven spring and it gives the pizza superior volume.  Superior volume/greater puff, for many members, tastes better.  So a faster baked pizza is a tastier pizza (to a point).

You're absolutely right (of course). I've noticed this as I watch through the oven glass how my crust grows/rises.

My pizzas from last year and today are difference like day and night. I used to bake them at about 210 degrees for 20 minutes in a cutter pan, and the result was something completely different.

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For the style you're currently making, 4 or 5 minutes should be the goal- and you'll never reach that goal with a screen.

The pizza I made today was done after 9 and a half minutes. I'm not sure exactly what temperature I'm cooking at, but I believe it is around 500 F. Does this make sense? 500 F - almost 10 minutes?

I guess I will have to buy an infrared thermometer to find out exactly what temperature it is.

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Could you measure your oven shelf?

I just measured it, and it seems to be 42 cm x 38 cm. Well... maybe it's 42 cm x 37.9 cm, I'm not sure.

Right now I'm using a 36 cm (14") screen, and I'm not sure if a 38 cm screen would be able to fit. Maybe just barely.

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Size plays a factor in this style.

I'm not sure if I understand that. I mean... 14" NY-style pies exist, don't they?

BTW, here are two pics from today's pizza.


 

pizzapan