Author Topic: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?  (Read 2684 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2013, 08:51:23 PM »
but all pizza has height.  I've seen damn puffy NYC crusts in my day (that rival any deep dish height), by that logic NYC pizza isn't pizza either.

I was about to say basically the same thing. Also, Malnati's doesn't really have much of a lip (or outer edge, or cornicione, or whatever), especially compared to what most people think.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2013, 08:56:46 PM »
U. S. Supreme Court Justice Scalia says no:

http://chicagoist.com/2011/10/19/justice_scalia_rules_against_deep-d.php

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2013, 08:15:16 AM »
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2013, 09:02:35 AM »
There is a spirited debate on this subject in the comments section of http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2008/06/pizzeria-uno-unos-chicago-illinois-deep-dish-pizza-original.html.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Pizza is not bread.

Offline derricktung

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2013, 09:52:54 AM »
As a Chicagoan (now in the burbs again), I'd have to side with "Yes, it's pizza".  Pizza, to me, is a large encompassing genre of food, much like how the term "pasta" is used.

Pasta - Spaghetti?  Spaghetti carbonara?  Lasagna?  Ravioli?  Penne? Ramen?  Beef noodle soup?  Pancit? Beef stroganoff?  It all falls into a "pasta" category for me, even though there are significant modification to how the pasta is made, what it's made of, and the ingredients of each dish...  Sure, pasta is mostly linked with Italian foods, but other noodle based dishes are grouped into "pasta" by my standards.

Pizza - Neapolitan, cracker thin, Chicago thin, Deep dish, NY style, etc. etc.  You get my point. 

So to all you deep dish haters, can't you just enjoy the deliciousness that it is, and just leave it well enough alone?   ;D

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2013, 11:24:20 AM »
I see it kind of like “light mayonnaise.” You can’t call something mayonnaise unless it contains at least 65% oil (in addition to other requirements), so if you reduce the amount of oil and/or add ingredients that are not permitted in mayonnaise (such as starch), you have to add a qualifier such as “light.” When you do this, by definition, it’s not mayonnaise; it’s “light mayonnaise,” a totally distinct item that is similar to mayonnaise in some respects but is not mayonnaise.

IMO, this is analogous to Chicago-style pizza. It’s not pizza, it’s “Chicago-style pizza.” It may be similar to pizza in some respects, but it is not pizza. Of course the FDA is not there to police the use of the word pizza like it does for mayonnaise, so you can call it whatever you like.

I’d propose a test along these lines to prove the point. Take a group of random people who have never seen or heard of “Chicago-style pizza,” and show it to them, let them taste it, and then ask them what they would call it. My guess is that few would call it “pizza.” Some may say it’s similar to pizza in some ways, but I bet few, if any, would call it straight up pizza.

I’d also bet that if you repeated the test with NY, NP, cracker, American, and maybe even Sicilian/DS, most people would call it pizza without qualification.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline derricktung

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2013, 11:46:31 AM »
When you do this, by definition, it’s not mayonnaise; it’s “light mayonnaise,” a totally distinct item that is similar to mayonnaise in some respects but is not mayonnaise.

Here's where we differ... I would still qualify "light mayo" into the category of mayo.  It's just a variation of the original mayo, but is utilized in the same fashion.

Thus, the larger category of "pizza" encompasses many/all styles of pizza for me.  Variation of the original.

I’d propose a test along these lines to prove the point. Take a group of random people who have never seen or heard of “Chicago-style pizza,” and show it to them, let them taste it, and then ask them what they would call it. My guess is that few would call it “pizza.” Some may say it’s similar to pizza in some ways, but I bet few, if any, would call it straight up pizza.

I’d also bet that if you repeated the test with NY, NP, cracker, American, and maybe even Sicilian/DS, most people would call it pizza without qualification.

Interesting proposed test.  The question is, how many folks haven't heard of Chicago style pizza?  Being Chicago born/raised, I'm a bit biased and wouldn't know a realistic response.  Again, being biased, I'm not sure of what the results would be.  People may have to qualify it when they call it "pizza", but even if so, it qualifies as pizza, no? 

Regardless, the test would indeed be interesting.  Now can we find a group of people who haven't had much pizza experience at all (no Sicilian, no cracker, no Detroit, etc) that we can actual run the test on? 


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2013, 12:10:23 PM »
Should someone ever want to do a test along the lines I described, it would only be necessary for them to not have experience with the specific type tested. I don't think it would be very difficult to find people who have never seen Chicago, DS, or Sicilian - or even NP for that matter.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2013, 12:17:07 PM »
I like the Jon Stewart Test.

If you toss a quarter in the pie and it disappears, it's not a pizza, it's a wishing well.
Now, wish for a real pizza.

Perry


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2013, 12:29:43 PM »
Here's where we differ... I would still qualify "light mayo" into the category of mayo.  It's just a variation of the original mayo, but is utilized in the same fashion.

Thus, the larger category of "pizza" encompasses many/all styles of pizza for me.  Variation of the original.

It's not a perfect analogy because "pizza" does not have a standard of identity as mayo does. However, I think the point is strong; strictly speaking, light mayo is not mayo. Period. It's not a variation of mayo. It is distinct from mayo by definition, and it has to be qualified as such by law. It may have a similar taste, it may have a similar appearance, and it may be used in the same fashion, but it is not mayo. It's "light mayo" or however else you want to qualify it so as not to be confused with mayo.  Chicago-style is no different - similar taste, used in the same fashion, but not pizza without qualification.

The flip-side of the test I proposed shows why this comparison is valid. The FDA won't let you use the unqualified word "mayonnaise" unless you meet the strict definition so as not to confuse consumers.  If you buy mayo, you know what you are getting. Say one of the test subjects ordered a pizza, and the delivery boy showed up with a Chicago-style. I imagine the response would be along the lines of WTF is this? A consumer would probably have a similar response if he purchased a bottle of mayo and found it to be filled 30% oil, starch-emulsified paste that looked and tastes a bit like mayo.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 12:33:03 PM by TXCraig1 »
Pizza is not bread.

Offline derricktung

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2013, 01:13:06 PM »

Say one of the test subjects ordered a pizza, and the delivery boy showed up with a Chicago-style. I imagine the response would be along the lines of WTF is this?


I'm not sure i believe that would be the case.  But again, I recognize I'm biased having been born and raised with Giordano's and Lou Malnati's as part of my childhood and college life staples.  (Along side Pizza Hut, Little Caesars, etc.)

Sounds like this would make a great test... we should propose to some late night talk show hosts and see if they'd be willing to fund a bunch of test runs in different markets.  Regardless, I think the response will be fun to watch.   ;D

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2013, 01:14:23 PM »
IMO, this is analogous to Chicago-style pizza. It’s not pizza, it’s “Chicago-style pizza.” It may be similar to pizza in some respects, but it is not pizza.

So what's NY style pizza? Is it pizza, or is it "NY style pizza"?

Online pythonic

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2013, 01:16:21 PM »
Before deep dish Chicago was known for their thin crust.  Bet you didn't know that.  Got this slice the other day and it sure looked and tasted like pizza to me.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2013, 01:28:49 PM »
I like the Jon Stewart Test.

If you toss a quarter in the pie and it disappears, it's not a pizza, it's a wishing well.
Now, wish for a real pizza.

Perry

You (and Jon Stewart) seem to be implying that a quarter would disappear if tossed into a Chicago style (deep dish) pizza. Big problem, though; It wouldn't happen. Maybe it would happen in the mind of someone who knows nothing about Chicago style pizza, or maybe it would actually disappear into almost every pizza made by following recipes and instructions for how to make so-called Chicago style deep dish pizza on the internet, but it wouldn't happen with an actual Chicago style pizza. Which makes the criteria pretty much pointless.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2013, 01:32:37 PM »
[Light mayo] is distinct from mayo by definition, and it has to be qualified as such by law.

By law where?

If I go somewhere else (where there is no such law), is light mayo actually mayo?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2013, 01:35:28 PM »
Before deep dish Chicago was known for their thin crust.  Bet you didn't know that.  Got this slice the other day and it sure looked and tasted like pizza to me.

I knew it from your other posts.  ;D

I think it's patently obvious that Chicago thin would pass the test I proposed. Are you suggesting that because there is a Chicago thin style that is pizza that the other is somehow pizza by association?
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2013, 01:42:06 PM »
So what's NY style pizza? Is it pizza, or is it "NY style pizza"?

I believe there is little doubt that NY style would not pass the test I proposed.

In the set of items that pass the test, the qualifier is analogous to a brand.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2013, 01:46:08 PM »
By law where?

If I go somewhere else (where there is no such law), is light mayo actually mayo?

Here in the US at least (CFR Title 21).

From my perspective inside the US, looking into another jurisdiction, no, light mayo is not mayo regardless of how they define it. If I'm inside that jurisdiction, then yes light mayo might be considered mayo. So, if you are suggesting that Chicago-style is pizza in Chicago, that would be a fair argument. Once you leave Chicago however, it stops being pizza.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Is Chicago style pizza, "pizza"?
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2013, 01:47:02 PM »
Before deep dish Chicago was known for their thin crust.

I'm more inclined to believe that before deep dish, Chicago was not known for pizza at all, just like Columbus isn't known for pizza at all. If someone in Columbus invents a style of pizza that eventually goes on to become known everywhere as "Columbus style pizza," Columbus will still never be known for the style of pizza you can most easily find here now just because it was available here before the invention of "Columbus style pizza." For all I know, the style of pizza you typically find in Columbus may be essentially the same thing as "Chicago thin" pizza.

You know what that tells me? It tells me Chicago isn't known for its thin crust much of anywhere beyond the boundaries of Chicagoland.

Nothing personal, Chicago.


 

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