Author Topic: The Italians and pineapples  (Read 1262 times)

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Offline mbrulato

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The Italians and pineapples
« on: November 15, 2013, 09:07:12 AM »
I've made one homemade starter at the beginning of this year using Peter Reinhart's recipe from his Artisan Breads Every Day book using fresh pineapple juice.  That is my only experience with starters. I remember it had a pleasant smell but it took more than a week to be fully active.  It never got contaminated  ;)

I have read through many threads on this forum about the Italian starters from sourdo.com but didn't see any mention of someone trying to activate them using pineapple juice.  Maybe I missed a few threads.  I did read that it helped to add some to correct the smell of vomit and the leuconostic bacteria overload.

I have to admit that I am very intimidated by these starters but I want to activate at least one of them today.  I don't have a heated proofing box, nor do I plan on making the DIY one mentioned in Ed Wood's book.  I was hoping to get good results from putting the starter in a one quart mason jar as directed by Mr. Wood after I've warmed up my oven a little.

Does anyone have any thoughts about me trying to activate either the Ischia or Camaldoli using some pineapple juice instead of with water as indicated in the instructions?  I have a fresh pineapple that needs to be cut today and though I could use the juice...

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

Mary Ann
Mary Ann


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2013, 09:16:17 AM »
There are a few threads around here that talk about using pineapple juice in starting cultures from scratch, but I don't remember any that relate to the cultures from sourdo.com.

I activated mine per the instructions in my oven with the light on. I didn't have any problems.

Why don't you call or email Ed at sourdo.com and ask him?
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Offline mbrulato

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2013, 09:19:04 AM »
Good idea.  Does your oven light stay on for the whole 24 hours?  I've noticed that mine goes off after a few minutes.
Mary Ann

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2013, 09:21:56 AM »
Mine stays on.
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Offline arspistorica

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2013, 01:02:43 PM »
Re pineapple juice:  This "method" was developed by Debra Wink and advanced by Peter Reinhardt, itself based upon faulty scientific assumptions.  The first among these is that Leuconostoc species are either undesirable or are not or should not be a part of the regularly-occurring sourdough microflora.  The second assumption is that pineapple juice will, in fact, "jump-start" a starter more quickly than just a combination of flour and water alone.

The first assumption is simply not true.  Leuconostoc species are regularly recovered from a whole range of human-based food fermentations, including those involving backslopping.   This species is found at the lower-end temperature-range of mesophilic lactic-acid bacteria, and is quite commonly recovered from wheat-based sourdoughs that are frequently refreshed below 22°C, a temperature representing its upper-range for metabolic activity.  What's more, when found in sourdoughs, Leuconostoc strains tend toward the periphery; that is, they are the secondary or tertiary lactobacilli species, with their metabolites consequently in the background as well.  That this species is "undesirable," I'd have to leave that up to the individual:  other than Lb plantarum it is often the dominant lactobacillus species in all human vegetable fermentations (think sauerkraut).

Re the second assumption:  The make-up of sourdough cultures are determined by, in the following order, substrate, temperature, and pH; these are the most relevant process parameters for bakers and pizzamakers.  Those wishing to preclude the the presence of Leuconostoc species simply need begin their starters with whole-grain and preferably freshly-milled flour; a very high dough-yield (400 - 500); and maintain a constant temperature of between 37° - 40°C (best achieved by placing the mixture into a sealable plastic bag with all air removed and then placing the bag into a large tub of water to act as a thermal sink; if one does not have an immersion circulator, one can simply add more hot water every few hours up to 24 hours to maintain the desired temperature).

As per the "Ischia" and other "bought" cultures:  I've said it once, I'll say it again.  The "science" behind these "dominant" cultures is non-existent.  They will cease to be the dominant culture after one refreshment, replaced by autochthonous species and/or strains, and likely cease to exist in your culture, even as a tertiary lactobacilli, after four to five refreshments.  So, save your money, remembering the following two facts:  the species that come to inhabit your culture have their origins from and inside you, as well as all the animals associated with the human biome (insects, rodents, higher mammals kept as pets or livestock, and so on); and that all fermentations in the world are uniform, given equal conditions.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 01:52:18 PM by arspistorica »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2013, 01:58:13 PM »
As per the "Ischia" and other "bought" cultures:  I've said it once, I'll say it again.  The "science" behind these "dominant" cultures is non-existent.  They will cease to be the dominant culture after one refreshment, replaced by autochthonous species and/or strains, and likely cease to exist in your culture, even as a tertiary lactobacilli, after four to five refreshments.  So, save your money, remembering that the following to facts:  the species that come to inhabit your culture have their origins from and inside you, as well as all the animals associated with the human biome (insects, rodents, higher mammals kept as pets or livestock, and so on); and that all fermentations in the world are uniform, given equal conditions.

My Ischia and SF cultures (at least that what they supposedly started as) are still markedly different after years of existing under identical conditions. There are other members here who have experienced the same thing with five or more cultures. This would appear to falsify your theory.
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Offline mbrulato

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2013, 02:10:57 PM »
I received a response from someone over at sourdo.com, but it was not Ed Wood.  They suggested not to use the pineapple juice.  As I was typing the email, I wondered if by adding the pineapple juice would it totally change the flavor of what it ought to be and render it inauthentic.  I'm having a pizza dinner party tomorrow night and will postpone my activation until next week.  Now if I can only figure out how to make the proof feature on my oven get to 90 degrees, then I'll be all set.  The manual and the manufacturer's help line was not able to "help" :( Grrrr.
Mary Ann

Offline arspistorica

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2013, 02:38:12 PM »
My Ischia and SF cultures (at least that what they supposedly started as) are still markedly different after years of existing under identical conditions. There are other members here who have experienced the same thing with five or more cultures. This would appear to falsify your theory.

This idea is not original to me, and, for the record, those who believe, without any means of external verification, that such cultures are stable over time and through countless variations in backslopped- and/or storage conditions, are the ones engaging in wild speculation and so-called "theory."  I believe in sticking to the facts and what the relevant sciences has shown.

First, some background.  The methods of identification and assaying microbiotic cultures, both through the use of culture-dependent and -independent methods, have increased the last two decades, along with the amount of published research on the subject.  In addition to bacteriolgoical culturing, researchers now also use genotypic identification methods, including repetitive element sequence-based PCR fingerprinting and phenylalanyl-tRNA synthase (pheS) gene sequence analysis.  Randomly amplified polymorphic DNA-PCR analaysis, in addition to those lactobacilli and yeast species' genomes which have been mapped in their entirety, provide a good basis by which to identify and assay the species found in particular sourdough cultures.  This being said, there are limitations to the methods used, but the technology and amount of research on the subject gets better every year, with the best research having come out in the last five years (coinciding the "genomic" revolution now occurring in the microbiological world).

Second, the actual research.  There are less than 100 published studies in any language done on this particular subject, with less than a dozen meta-studies or reviews.  Although most of the research teams are based in non-English speaking countries (including Belgium, Italy, and Germany, but with the exception of Canada), almost all the scholarship is available in English.  This means any member of this forum is able to read it.

Third, the actual findings.  On the topic of "created" cultures, the science is very clear.  Most of this research comes from Germany and Italy, the two largest countries of origin for these "created" cultures.  There exists, in both countries, several companies that, acting as auxiliaries to the corporate baking sector in each, "create," manufacture and sell these cultures.  Some of the science done on this subject has even been paid for by these companies, but the majority of it is conducted outside the influence of corporate-appropriated monies. (Please note that the word "create," in this sense, actually means "isolate," wherein researchers develop a culture in a lab via the same methods a home baker would, and then selectively isolate a particular organism of interest, and then propagate, usually in an artificial media like "sourdough broth," the organism of interest until large enough quantities are achieved and then lyophilise them; most of the R&D money here goes to the creation, isolation and enumeration of already-natural cultures rather than in the "creation" and testing of such cultures in a wide range of circumstances so as to back up claims of their putative "universality."  In fact, of principal interest to these researchers is the ability to selectively modify the genome of the organisms to withstand the rigors of lyophilisation and then subsequent reactivation, as these cultures are meant for one-off use, like commercial yeast, rather than for continuous propagation, how most of the members of this forum seem to use them.)

The conclusion in 100% of the studies?  Autochthonous species and/or strains will always outcompete an artificially-introduced external culture from the first refreshment, and introduced species and/or strains almost always die out completely by the fourth or fifth refreshment.  So much so that the above-mentioned companies are now pouring in a lot of money into R&D involving the genetic-engineering of such species for sold cultures (again, the results have been abysmal thus far).

The other finding of relevance here is that human food fermentations are not diverse, and that, given equal conditions, are uniform despite their geographical origin or location.

In all likelihood both of the "separate" cultures you mentioned are one in the very same, if kept under identical conditions.


« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 05:30:20 PM by arspistorica »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2013, 02:50:10 PM »
This idea is not original to me, and, for the record, those who believe, without any means of external verification, that such cultures are stable over time and through countless variations in backslopped- and/or storage conditions, are the ones engaging in wild speculation and so-called "theory."  I believe in sticking to the facts and what the relevant sciences has shown.

Unless I’ve missed it, you have not put forward any facts.

Quote
In all likelihood both of the "separate" cultures you mentioned are the very same, if kept under identical conditions.

For at least four years, they have been kept under substantially “identical” conditions:  identical containers, side by side in the same refrigerator, fed the same flour at the same times. If the theory your are putting forward is correct, they should be the same should they not? They aren’t.
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Offline arspistorica

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2013, 03:22:32 PM »
Unless I’ve missed it, you have not put forward any facts.

For at least four years, they have been kept under substantially “identical” conditions:  identical containers, side by side in the same refrigerator, fed the same flour at the same times. If the theory your are putting forward is correct, they should be the same should they not? They aren’t.

It's simple.  The means of identifying and assaying species recovered in microbiotic cultures has increased over time and continues to do so at an astonishing rate.  Concurrently, so have the number of scientific investigations into the subject, with a well-documented and ever-growing body of work concentrating on the sourdough microbiota.  As the rate of discovery and experiments increases, so does the consensus of understanding within this particular scientific enclave, with replicable findings published in well-respected peer review journals.  Current understanding within this field is that, first, autochthonous species and/or strains will always outcompete artificially-introduced cultures for reasons that should be abundantly clear from my other posts, and that, second, all fermentations are uniform rather than diverse, given equal conditions.  Concerning the latter, the degree to which fermentations are uniform only increases through time, as net biological diversity decreases.

Believe as you will; many sourdough practitioners continue to engage in folk theory as well, much to the detriment of the general public's understanding on the subject.  However, this trend will only decrease over time, especially as more in-roads between the professional baking community and its related science are made, of which I am a part.

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2013, 03:46:51 PM »
Folk theory or otherwise, I know what I have observed and it does not conform to your claims nor have you attempted to explain how this could be. You've put forth exactly nothing but big words to support your contention.
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Offline arspistorica

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2013, 04:05:17 PM »
Folk theory or otherwise, I know what I have observed and it does not conform to your claims nor have you attempted to explain how this could be. You've put forth exactly nothing but big words to support your contention.

If and when you have a specific counter-argument relying on fact, I'll happily answer to the best of my ability; otherwise, there's very little I can do to disprove your personal interpretation of your life's events.  As I've said before, believe as you will!  If it makes good bread and/or pizza and it makes you happy, then that's fantastic!
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2013, 04:30:00 PM »
If and when you have a specific counter-argument relying on fact, I'll happily answer to the best of my ability; otherwise, there's very little I can do to disprove your personal interpretation of your life's events.  As I've said before, believe as you will!  If it makes good bread and/or pizza and it makes you happy, then that's fantastic!

I’ve given you a very specific fact: multiple consistent direct observations. Perhaps not a controlled scientific experiment, but hardly something that can be dismissed out of hand given that it directly contradicts a theory that you have supplied nothing to support.

All you have put forth is an appeal to an unnamed consensus. That’s pretty weak for someone who is trying to make the subject as complex as possible with his words while also trying to marginalize my observations by implying that I’m folkish.

The scientific method does not require me to put forth a counter-theory to falsify yours. I’m surprised you don’t know that?
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Offline arspistorica

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2013, 04:54:52 PM »
I’ve given you a very specific fact: multiple consistent direct observations. Perhaps not a controlled scientific experiment, but hardly something that can be dismissed out of hand given that it directly contradicts a theory that you have supplied nothing to support.

All you have put forth is an appeal to an unnamed consensus. That’s pretty weak for someone who is trying to make the subject as complex as possible with his words while also trying to marginalize my observations by implying that I’m folkish.

The scientific method does not require me to put forth a counter-theory to falsify yours. I’m surprised you don’t know that?


If you want to PM me, I will gladly give you the names and e-mail addresses of the researchers who study these subjects!  Otherwise, all of the relevant studies are available to the public if you're willing to pay on sites like Elsevier, DeepDyve, etc.  Some (but not all) can be viewed in their entirety for free on Google Scholar.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 04:58:57 PM by arspistorica »
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2013, 05:01:13 PM »
Otherwise, all of the relevant studies are available to the public if you're willing to pay on sites like Elsevier, DeepDyve, etc. 

Such as?

Quote
Some (but not all) can be viewed in their entirety for free on Google Scholar.

Such as?
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Offline deb415611

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2013, 05:25:21 PM »


I activated mine per the instructions in my oven with the light on. I didn't have any problems.



I did the same with no problems, I'd do it the same again with the italian starters or any dried starter.

If I were to do one from scratch (which I probably wouldn't) I might use the pineapple juice again, it works.   (my name is in that book  8) )



Offline arspistorica

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2013, 05:27:02 PM »
The first two are the best sources to begin with.  The first is the best (and most recent) meta-study on the subject, with the second being an annual compendium of the most recent scholarship on the subject.  Siragusa and Corsetti have done a number of studies on the introduction of outside cultures and whether they remain dominant, as well as de Vuyst and Vrancken.  There is also a lot of data that remains to be published or that is unpublished, which is why I offered you to PM me so I can give you specific contact details for researchers in this area.  Most are quite happy to share their findings!

"Microbial ecology of sourdough fermentations: Diverse or uniform?|
L. De Vuyst, Corresponding author contact information, E-mail the corresponding author, S. Van Kerrebroecka, H. Hartha, G. Huysb, H.-M. Danielc, S. Weckxa
a Research Group of Industrial Microbiology and Food Biotechnology (IMDO), Faculty of Sciences and Bioengineering Sciences, Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Pleinlaan 2, B-1050 Brussels, Belgium
b Laboratory of Microbiology and BCCM/LMG Bacteria Collection, Faculty of Sciences, Ghent University, K.L. Ledeganckstraat 35, B-9000 Gent, Belgium
c Mycothèque de l'Université catholique de Louvain (MUCL), Belgian Coordinated Collection of Microorganisms (BCCM), Earth and Life Institute, Applied Microbiology, Mycology, Université catholique de Louvain, Croix du Sud 3, bte 6, B-1348 Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium
Food Microbiology
Volume 37, February 2014, Pages 11–29
V International Symposium on Sourdough - Cereal Fermentation for Future Foods, Helsinki 10-12 October 2012

"Handbook on Sourdough Biotechnology," edited by Marco Gobbetti & Michael Gänzle, 2013.

Molecular taxonomy and genetics of sourdough lactic acid bacteria
Matthias A. EhrmannCorresponding author contact information, E-mail the corresponding author, Rudi F. Vogel
Technische Universität München, Weihenstephaner Steig 16, Freising-Weihenstephen 85350, Germany
Trends in Food Science & Technology
Volume 16, Issues 1–3, January–March 2005, Pages 31–42

Influence of Geographical Origin and Flour Type on Diversity of Lactic Acid Bacteria in Traditional Belgian Sourdoughs▿†
Ilse Scheirlinck1,*, Roel Van der Meulen3, Ann Van Schoor1, Marc Vancanneyt2, Luc De Vuyst3, Peter Vandamme1 and Geert Huys1
Published ahead of print 3 August 2007, doi: 10.1128/AEM.00894-07
Appl. Environ. Microbiol. October 2007 vol. 73 no. 19 6262-6269

Yeasts in Food and Beverages
2006, pp 13-53
Taxonomic and Ecological Diversity of Food and Beverage Yeasts
Patrizia Romano, Angela Capece, Lene Jespersen

Molecular identification of the microbiota of French sourdough using temporal temperature gradient gel electrophoresis
Mounir Ferchichia, c, Corresponding author contact information, E-mail the corresponding author, Rosica Valchevaa, b, Hervé Prévosta, Bernard Onnoa, Xavier Dousseta
a Laboratoire de Microbiologie Alimentaire et Industrielle (LMAI), Unité de Recherche QM2A, ENITIAA, rue de la Géraudière, BP 82225, 44322 Nantes Cedex 3, France
b Department of Microbiology, Faculty of Biology, Sofia University, 8 Dragan Tzankov street, 1162 Sofia, Bulgaria
c Unité de Biochimie et Biologie Moléculaire, Faculté des Sciences de Tunis, El Manar 2092, Tunis, Tunisia
Food Microbiology
Volume 24, Issues 7–8, October–December 2007, Pages 678–686

Molecular source tracking of predominant lactic acid bacteria in traditional Belgian sourdoughs and their production environments
I. Scheirlinck1, R. Van der Meulen2, L. De Vuyst2, P. Vandamme1, G. Huys1
Article first published online: 2 FEB 2009
DOI: 10.1111/j.1365-2672.2008.04094.x
Journal of Applied Microbiology
Volume 106, Issue 4, pages 1081–1092, April 2009

Post-genomics of lactic acid bacteria and other food-grade bacteria to discover gut functionality
Willem M de Vos1, 2, E-mail the corresponding author, Peter A Bron1, 2, 3, Michiel Kleerebezem1, 3
1 Wageningen Center for Food Sciences, Diedenweg 20, PO Box 557, 6700 AN Wageningen, The Netherlands
2 Laboratory of Microbiology, Diedenweg 20, PO Box 557, 6700 AN Wageningen, The Netherlands
3 NIZO Food Research, Diedenweg 20, PO Box 557, 6700 AN Wageningen, The Netherlands
Current Opinion in Biotechnology
Volume 15, Issue 2, April 2004, Pages 86–93

Taxonomic Structure and Stability of the Bacterial Community in Belgian Sourdough Ecosystems as Assessed by Culture and Population Fingerprinting▿†
Ilse Scheirlinck1,*, Roel Van der Meulen3, Ann Van Schoor1, Marc Vancanneyt2, Luc De Vuyst3, Peter Vandamme1 and Geert Huys1
Published ahead of print 29 February 2008, doi: 10.1128/AEM.02771-07
Appl. Environ. Microbiol. April 2008 vol. 74 no. 8 2414-2423

Lactobacilli in sourdough fermentation
Aldo CorsettiCorresponding author contact information, E-mail the corresponding author, Luca Settanni
Dipartimento di Scienze degli Alimenti, Sezione di Microbiologia Agro-Alimentare ed Ambientale, Università degli Studi di Teramo, V.C.R. Lerici 1, 64023 Mosciano Sant’Angelo (TE), Italy
Food Research International
Volume 40, Issue 5, June 2007, Pages 539–558

Taxonomic Structure and Monitoring of the Dominant Population of Lactic Acid Bacteria during Wheat Flour Sourdough Type I Propagation Using Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis Starters▿
Published ahead of print 16 December 2008, doi: 10.1128/AEM.01524-08
Appl. Environ. Microbiol. February 2009 vol. 75 no. 4 1099-1109
L. De VuystCorresponding author contact information, E-mail the corresponding author, G. Vrancken, F. Ravyts, T. Rimaux, S. Weckx
Research Group of Industrial Microbiology and Food Biotechnology, Faculty of Sciences and Bio-engineering Sciences, Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Pleinlaan 2, B-1050 Brussels, Belgium

The sourdough microflora: Interactions of lactic acid bacteria and yeasts
M Gobbetti
Institute of Dairy Microbiology, Agriculture Faculty of Perugia, S. Costanzo, 06126 Perugia, Italy

Community Dynamics of Bacteria in Sourdough Fermentations as
Revealed by Their Metatranscriptome
Stefan Weckx,1 Roel Van der Meulen,1 Joke Allemeersch,2 Geert Huys,3
Peter Vandamme,3 Paul Van Hummelen,2 and Luc De Vuyst1
Research Group of Industrial Microbiology and Food Biotechnology (IMDO), Faculty of Sciences and Bio-engineering Sciences,
Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Pleinlaan 2, B-1050 Brussels, Belgium1
; MicroArray Facility (MAF), Flanders Institute for
Biotechnology (VIB), Herestraat 49, Box 816, B-3000 Leuven, Belgium2
; and Laboratory for Microbiology,
Faculty of Sciences, Ghent University, K. L. Ledeganckstraat 35, B-9000 Ghent, Belgium3
Received 3 March 2010/Accepted 18 June 2010
Antonie van Leeuwenhoek
12-2002, Volume 81, Issue 1-4, pp 631-638
Development and potential of starter lactobacilli resulting from exploration of the sourdough ecosystem
Rudi F. Vogel, Matthias A. Ehrmann, Michael G. Gänzle

The sourdough microflora: biodiversity and metabolic interactions
Luc De VuystCorresponding author contact information, E-mail the corresponding author, Patricia Neysens
Research Group of Industrial Microbiology, Fermentation Technology and Downstream Processing (IMDO), Department of Applied Biological Sciences, Vrije Universiteit Brussel (VUB), Pleinlaan 2, B-1050 Brussels, Belgium

Biodiversity and identification of sourdough lactic acid bacteria
Luc De Vuysta, Corresponding author contact information, E-mail the corresponding author, Marc Vancanneytb, E-mail the corresponding author
a Research Group of Industrial Microbiology and Food Biotechnology, Department of Biological Sciences and Engineering, Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Pleinlaan 2, B-1050 Brussels, Belgium
b BCCM/LMG Bacteria Collection, Laboratory for Microbiology, Ghent University, K.L. Ledeganckstraat 35, B-9000 Ghent, Belgium

Monitoring the Bacterial Population Dynamics in Sourdough Fermentation Processes by Using PCR-Denaturing Gradient Gel Electrophoresis
Christiane B. Meroth, Jens Walter, Christian Hertel*, Markus J. Brandt and Walter P. Hammes
doi: 10.1128/AEM.69.1.475-482.2003
Appl. Environ. Microbiol. January 2003 vol. 69 no. 1 475-482

Genomic analysis reveals Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis as stable element in traditional sourdoughs
Rudi F Vogel1
, Melanie Pavlovic1
, Matthias A Ehrmann1*, Arnim Wiezer3
, Heiko Liesegang3
, Stefanie Offschanka3
Sonja Voget1
, Angel Angelov2
, Georg Böcker4
, Wolfgang Liebl2
From 10th Symposium on Lactic Acid Bacterium
Egmond aan Zee, the Netherlands. 28 August - 1 September 2011

« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 05:34:33 PM by arspistorica »
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2013, 07:16:17 PM »
The first article not hidden behind a paywall, “Influence of Geographical Origin and Flour Type on Diversity of Lactic Acid Bacteria in Traditional Belgian Sourdoughs” contradicts you on several points. For example:

 “Although it is known that the type of flour, process technology, and other factors strongly influence the composition of the sourdough microbiota (9, 21), cluster analysis and PCA indicate that the typical microbial composition of Belgian sourdoughs is influenced by the bakery environment, rather than the type of flour used to produce the sourdough.”

It is also not clear that any of the the cultures sampled in this study were imported as opposed to being established locally. Taking these two observations together, I don’t see how you reject the possibility that an imported culture could not maintain its integrity – this particularly in light of another article this one led me to: Microorganisms of the San Francisco Sour Dough Bread Process (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC377203/pdf/applmicro00113-0074.pdf) which states, “Another interesting aspect of this sour dough system containing these bacteria and certain yeasts is its self-protective nature, i.e., its incredible resistance to contamination by other microorganisms which has been maintained for decades.”
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline arspistorica

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2013, 09:27:22 PM »
The first article not hidden behind a paywall, “Influence of Geographical Origin and Flour Type on Diversity of Lactic Acid Bacteria in Traditional Belgian Sourdoughs” contradicts you on several points. For example:

 “Although it is known that the type of flour, process technology, and other factors strongly influence the composition of the sourdough microbiota (9, 21), cluster analysis and PCA indicate that the typical microbial composition of Belgian sourdoughs is influenced by the bakery environment, rather than the type of flour used to produce the sourdough.”

It is also not clear that any of the the cultures sampled in this study were imported as opposed to being established locally. Taking these two observations together, I don’t see how you reject the possibility that an imported culture could not maintain its integrity – this particularly in light of another article this one led me to: Microorganisms of the San Francisco Sour Dough Bread Process (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC377203/pdf/applmicro00113-0074.pdf) which states, “Another interesting aspect of this sour dough system containing these bacteria and certain yeasts is its self-protective nature, i.e., its incredible resistance to contamination by other microorganisms which has been maintained for decades.”



First, the Sugihara and Kline article was seminal for 1971, when researchers, including Sugihara and Kline, believed strains as well as species were specific to geographic origin.  Thankfully, science progresses with the times, and this point-of-view has been overturned through several decades of research, most notably summarised in the second source I urged you to start with. (It is worth noting Sugihara and Kline's statement has to do with outside contamination from non-sourdough microbiota, a point driven home especially during the last two decades' worth of research.  Again, do the legwork.  Several of the studies I have referenced above will make note of the fact that sourdough cultures are inherently unstable, since most are very rarely kept in perfectly stable conditions.  Researchers now know "outside contamination" is entirely possible and occurs quite often, especially in the secondary and tertiary LAB populations.  It is worth noting that such contaminations are the result of those species commonly recovered in human food-based fermentations.  E.g., when commercial yeast is used bakeries alongside sourdough cultures, those sourdough cultures have a tendency to be contaminated by wild mutagens of S. cerevisiae, as is the case in most Italian bakeries.

The article you mentioned is authored by the very same researchers (de Vuyst, et al.) who are responsible for the best meta-studies done on this very subject, with their newest published this past year (this is one of two I suggested you begin with).  If you think what you quoted disproves what I said, continue to read further, including the work by the same authors.  Their conclusion from this study, completed in 2007, does not correlate process parameters with a particular bakery's environment; when the following is done, uniformity emerges, as these authors later reveal in their own work.  In this context, "bakery environment" (in the one study you mentioned) should be read as "process parameters," as each bakery in the study used different propagation techniques.  Again, I can provide the contact details of these particular researchers if you PM me and if you do not want to pay for all the articles.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 09:30:02 PM by arspistorica »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2013, 10:46:40 PM »
First, the Sugihara and Kline article was seminal for 1971, when researchers, including Sugihara and Kline, believed strains as well as species were specific to geographic origin.  Thankfully, science progresses with the times, and this point-of-view has been overturned through several decades of research, most notably summarised in the second source I urged you to start with. (It is worth noting Sugihara and Kline's statement has to do with outside contamination from non-sourdough microbiota, a point driven home especially during the last two decades' worth of research.  Again, do the legwork.  Several of the studies I have referenced above will make note of the fact that sourdough cultures are inherently unstable, since most are very rarely kept in perfectly stable conditions.  Researchers now know "outside contamination" is entirely possible and occurs quite often, especially in the secondary and tertiary LAB populations.  It is worth noting that such contaminations are the result of those species commonly recovered in human food-based fermentations.  E.g., when commercial yeast is used bakeries alongside sourdough cultures, those sourdough cultures have a tendency to be contaminated by wild mutagens of S. cerevisiae, as is the case in most Italian bakeries.

The article you mentioned is authored by the very same researchers (de Vuyst, et al.) who are responsible for the best meta-studies done on this very subject, with their newest published this past year (this is one of two I suggested you begin with).  If you think what you quoted disproves what I said, continue to read further, including the work by the same authors.  Their conclusion from this study, completed in 2007, does not correlate process parameters with a particular bakery's environment; when the following is done, uniformity emerges, as these authors later reveal in their own work.  In this context, "bakery environment" (in the one study you mentioned) should be read as "process parameters," as each bakery in the study used different propagation techniques.  Again, I can provide the contact details of these particular researchers if you PM me and if you do not want to pay for all the articles.

If you would be so kind, please simply post a couple direct quotes with references to the particular articles that clearly and unequivocally states something even approaching "They will cease to be the dominant culture after one refreshment, replaced by autochthonous species and/or strains, and likely cease to exist in your culture, even as a tertiary lactobacilli, after four to five refreshments."
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