Author Topic: The Italians and pineapples  (Read 1972 times)

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scott123

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2013, 11:02:58 PM »
Ian, if what you're saying is true, than Ed Wood (Sourdo.com) is out of a job, and (most likely) thousands of hours of forum discussion on this topic will finally come to an end.  Maybe, since this appears to be your field, you may feel this all should be common knowledge, but, within this community, it is anything but.

If you're going to put forth such a game changing concept, it's got to be backed up with more than just references to studies/books that either have to be purchased or researchers that have to be contacted.

I'm not in any way saying you're wrong, in fact, I'd like for you to be right, as that moves this outside of the realm of conjecture, and, anytime we can do that, it's a victory, but if we're going to reach that promised land, as Craig requested, please post some quotes.

I don't think anyone asking for a doctoral dissertation.  You seem, because of your connection to the industry, to have access to all this information.  I'm confident that you can keep within the fair use guidelines while sharing some excerpts that back up your claims.


Offline arspistorica

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2013, 01:24:09 AM »
Ian, if what you're saying is true, than Ed Wood (Sourdo.com) is out of a job, and (most likely) thousands of hours of forum discussion on this topic will finally come to an end.  Maybe, since this appears to be your field, you may feel this all should be common knowledge, but, within this community, it is anything but.

If you're going to put forth such a game changing concept, it's got to be backed up with more than just references to studies/books that either have to be purchased or researchers that have to be contacted.

I'm not in any way saying you're wrong, in fact, I'd like for you to be right, as that moves this outside of the realm of conjecture, and, anytime we can do that, it's a victory, but if we're going to reach that promised land, as Craig requested, please post some quotes.

I don't think anyone asking for a doctoral dissertation.  You seem, because of your connection to the industry, to have access to all this information.  I'm confident that you can keep within the fair use guidelines while sharing some excerpts that back up your claims.

To be honest, I'll let the debate rage on.  You guys seem to have a good thing going here.  Cheers.
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
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Online JD

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2013, 08:53:21 AM »
I'm not in any way saying you're wrong, in fact, I'd like for you to be right, as that moves this outside of the realm of conjecture, and, anytime we can do that, it's a victory, but if we're going to reach that promised land, as Craig requested, please post some quotes.

To be honest, I'll let the debate rage on.  You guys seem to have a good thing going here.  Cheers.

Very simple request, your credibility is quickly fading....

Josh

Offline mbrulato

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2013, 09:08:48 AM »
To be honest, I'll let the debate rage on.  You guys seem to have a good thing going here.  Cheers.

TBH, arspictorica, I believe that I asked a simple question that required a simple answer, to which I received one very simple suggestion.  Thank you, Craig for that  :)

I did not think my simple question required a dissertation/spewing about the science behind sourdough starters in order for me to be impressed with someone's knowledge or to move forward with the activation of an Italian starter.  That being said, I will post my results for those sincerely interested in helping a fellow forum member who is inexperienced with starters, once it is bubbling along.
Mary Ann

Offline Qarl

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2013, 06:57:47 PM »
My Ischia and Camaboldi cultures have existed side-by-side in multiple jars in the fridge for one year at this point.  Both produce distinctly different dough characteristicis (crumb, texture, flavor) and both activate and go into hybernation at different schedules.  Both have been fed and activated in the same methods.

My Ischia and Camoboldi both had activation issues.  Got the vomit smell around the week mark and persisted for another 5 ties.  I added 2 Tbs pineapple juice in place of water for subsequent feedings.  Cleared up after 3 days.  Continued to feed and multiply for another 3-4 days.  Been using ever since.

Sometimes science theory doesn't back up real world observations from the common man.. 

Disclaimer:  I'm just a dude making pizza for fun and observing the world as he sees it!

Offline mbrulato

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2013, 02:36:25 PM »
Qarl,

This morning at around 10am (16 hours) it went from the one cup mark to the two and a half cup mark on the jar.  I'm at the 20 hour activation mark right now with the Ischia and developed a small layer of hooch very close to the bottom of the jar.  Sourdo.com instructed me to stir it and continue with the activation as long as there is no rancid smell.  As the day goes on, it smells more like a yeasty vinegar.  But I'm not sure of how the Ischia is supposed to smell.  The first photo was taken around noon and the second is after I mixed it about 5 minutes ago.  How long did you give it the pineapple juice?  Did you feed it the full cup of flour and 3/4 cup pineapple juice or just replace some of the water with pineapple juice?  Thanks in advance for your help.  ;)

Mary Ann
Mary Ann

Offline adm

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2013, 04:08:45 PM »
All this seems a little extreme to me.

For almost all of the activations of the Ischia culture I have seen so far (mainly on this board), there tends to be a lot of "Should it look/smell like this???"

Pictures seem typically to indicate a three layer structure to most early Ischia starters - yeast cell/trub layer at the bottom, liquid (hooch) and then active yeast at the top. From my days brewing, this is exactly what fermenting beer looks like - and is a good thing indicating a healthy and active fermentation.

From my own experience with the Ischia I had exactly the same. It's different to creating your own sourdough culture from flour and water - why I don't know (maybe due to massive amounts of culture rather than whatever you pick up from the air), but the process and results seem fine. Basically, don't sweat it, don't worry about about funny smells and it will evolve over time into a perfectly reliable culture for baking.

My Ischia culture now behaves more or less like any other sourdough culture I have owned. I think the whole early days "splitting" thing is more because of the drying, delivery and activation methods than anything else and as I said above due to the large amount of active organisms.

Anyway....I don't really care if one culture bleeds into another due to cross contamination. If it makes decent bread or pizza, then so be it. Good enough for me and why fight about it. If cross contamination is a major issue, there's really nothing you can do about it unless you work in a lab or are prepared to use the same sterile precautions.

Other than that, just feed the yeasty beasties and enjoy the results.


Offline mbrulato

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2013, 05:58:23 PM »
Thanks, adm.  Sourdo.com confirmed that it is the right smell.  I just fed it and set it out on the counter.  The instructions say to continue to feed it at 12 - 24 hour intervals until volume increases about 2 inches within 2-3 hours of last feeding.  Then I should split it and place in the fridge until I'm ready to use it.

Anyone have any recipe suggestions to get my feet wet with my new Ischia starter once it's fully active?  Maybe bread or pizza dough?  I don't have any experience with making NP pizza....  Perhaps a recipe from Ed Wood's sourdough book?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 06:58:08 PM by mbrulato »
Mary Ann

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2013, 02:48:22 PM »
DEFINITELY pizza dough!

You will really enjoy the dough and its fun telling guests that you made it without any commercial yeast. And honestly I really do not think I am being susceptible to the "placebo effect" when I say that I actually feel better after having eaten 23 (small :)) pieces of NP pie made with starter than a similar amount made with IDY/ADY.

Of course you can get everything you need to know re: recipe/technique from Tx Craig's post on this.

John K
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Offline mbrulato

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2013, 02:57:38 PM »
Thanks for the encouragement, John.  It is not yet fully active but it's getting there.  It has a wonderful sweet, sourdoughey smell.  Reading everything I can because I really want to make NP pizza.  So I guess I need to move my steel closer to the broiler and then read this?http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.0.html
Mary Ann


Offline Serpentelli

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2013, 03:04:42 PM »
Bingo.

Great description and pictures.

Good luck!

I'm not wearing hockey pads!

Offline mbrulato

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2013, 09:25:05 PM »
Ischia has a creamy, sweet, sour-ey smell now.  Almost ready  :chef:
Mary Ann

Offline mbrulato

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2014, 11:04:01 AM »
Just sharing my SD activation results hoping to help some members out there.

Almost a year later and my Ischia is doing just fine.  No contamination-just happy, bubbling yeasty beasties-many breads and pizzas later.

A few weeks ago Donjo posted a same day SD pizza that looked incredible using his Camaldoli starter.  It has inspired me to activate mine. 

So, almost a year of the dried Camaldoli packet sitting in my fridge, I began the activation process yesterday.  This morning I checked the jar at the 22 hour mark and look what I found?  It seemed to activate much more quickly than the Ischia did. It also has a sweeter aroma than Ischia.  I'm hoping that it does have a more subtle SD flavor profile than Ischia.  My oldest child and I are in the minority in my house.  We like the flavor of sourdough, but my husband, daughter and other son do not  :'( Maybe I can sneak this flavor by them???  ;)
Mary Ann

Offline Donjo911

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2014, 03:28:45 PM »
You are too kind, Mary Ann! Thanks!
And, once again, Consistently Awesome!  Look at you reviving a starter that's a year old - like it's nothin'  8)
I'm excited to see what you see in it's performance and other characteristics! The two are very different in my experience.
Cheers,
Don
I have done wrong.. but what I did, I thought needed to be done.

Offline mbrulato

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2014, 04:35:58 PM »
You are too kind, Mary Ann! Thanks!
And, once again, Consistently Awesome!  Look at you reviving a starter that's a year old - like it's nothin'  8)
I'm excited to see what you see in it's performance and other characteristics! The two are very different in my experience.
Cheers,
Don

Lol Don.  It was still in the foil packet that I got from sourdo.com.  I kept it in the fridge when I bought it and only activated the Ischia packet last November.  So these pictures were after my activation feeding.  It has a distinctly floral aroma to it where the Ischia has a more pronounced sour smell.  But time and feedings and experiments will tell  ;D

Six hours after the second feeding (I discarded half before I fed), the culture bubbled all the way to the top of the jar.  I just fed for third time at 3:30.  If it grows the required amount in about 2 hours, maybe I'll make a small ball of dough to test out tomorrow for pizza night.  Stay tuned....
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 04:41:28 PM by mbrulato »
Mary Ann

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2014, 09:20:14 PM »
I think this article is not behind a pay wall,
and it describes the changes that a sourdough undergoes during "propogation".

http://aem.asm.org/content/79/24/7827.full

Offline mbrulato

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2014, 10:26:02 AM »
This starter took off like a bat outta hell last week during activation and then became very sluggish for about 4 days.  But after consistent feeding every 12 hours, it's finally ready.  Time to play  ;D
Mary Ann

Offline Donjo911

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Re: The Italians and pineapples
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2014, 12:43:11 PM »
And a Playa gotta play!  Play-on Playa!! 8)
Cheers,
Don
I have done wrong.. but what I did, I thought needed to be done.