Author Topic: Standard NY Style  (Read 2407 times)

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Offline noreaster

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Standard NY Style
« on: November 20, 2013, 01:21:27 PM »
Hi,

I have been using this forums standard formula to make my pies http://www.pizzamaking.com/newyorkstyle.php. I assume the recipe is for a single 18 inch pie? I use KASL, and knead on speed 1 (low) of my Hobart N50 for the 15 minutes. I find myself pulling the dough off the hook as it climbs. This could mean as many as 10+ pauses during this 15 minute cycle to slide it off the hook. Many times the dough breaks into two separate balls while kneading. I usually try to encourage them connecting back together by pressing them into one again, is this normal? I usually always pass the window pane test at the 15 minute mark and my dough never tears while stretching.

As you can see, my pie is smaller because my peel and stone (kiln shelf) can only support up to a 15 inch pie at this time, so I am usually making two pies out of this single formula. Please advise if these numbers are skewed and I should be dividing it differently.

By looking at the pie, what seems wrong with it to the naked eye? I am mostly disappointed in the rim of the crust not having any air bubbles. I do my best to form the rim without deflating it but wonder if their might be an underlying cause?

Thanks for any help.


Offline mbrulato

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2013, 01:25:58 PM »
How long are you fermenting your dough?
Mary Ann

Offline noreaster

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2013, 01:28:08 PM »
This one was 24 hours, I have done a few at the 36 hour mark and the differences are there, but slight.

Offline mbrulato

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2013, 01:33:40 PM »
I usually ferment my NY style dough for 48 hours.  I mix the dough with paddle on low for one minute with my KA, let rest for 5 minutes or so, mix on medium low with c hook for another 2 minutes and then hand knead for about another minute.  Ball then into the fridge, reball after 24 hours and then on the counter for an hour before stretching.  I might be wrong but 15 minutes sounds like a long time to mix.  Hope this helps you.

Mary Ann

Offline noreaster

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2013, 01:43:36 PM »
I do use the paddle initially to bring it together and I add the oil at that stage as well, but I don't have the c hook. I have this one:

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/images/products/main/60410/46940/hobart-eddough-hl4320-20-qt-replacement-dough-hook-for-30-qt-hl300-and-40-qt-hl400-legacy-mixers.jpg

When you reball, how do you handle the dough ball and how much are you deflating?

Offline Sartanely

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 01:56:37 PM »
From my observation and have tried deferent mixers 15 minutes of kneading on 1 speed is not even enough for high gluten flour. I have hobart 20 qt and use 2 speed for 20 minutes for 1.5kg bread flours.  If hydration goes up you need more than 2nd speed on KA mixer to develope gluten. I used to use speed 8 on my KA to knead 67% hydration doughs for 10-15 minutes or till the dough was not sticking to the bowl.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2013, 08:06:42 PM »
First of all, I think your pizza looks great. Second, I almost never mix NY style dough for more than 3 minutes, using All Trumps flour and a spiral dough hook on a KitchenAid Professional 6 (I believe). This gives me a reasonably lumpy dough (which is to be used at least 24 hours after mixing; usually 48 hours). If you can windowpane, you've mixed a lot longer than you probably should have.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2013, 08:26:22 PM »
Nice pie.  A 15 min knead would be good if you we're doing a room temp rise for a same day dough.  For cold rise only a 3-5min knead is required.  Try to also go 48 hrs, the flavor difference is night and day from a 24 hr cold rise.  A longer rise should also if your the extra air bubbles you are looking for.

Nate
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Offline noreaster

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2013, 10:33:25 AM »
Thanks for all the pointers, I will post back my result when I make next weeks pie.

Offline Sartanely

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2013, 11:21:47 AM »
I think mixing and kneading is deferent in terms and is deferent process. I agree if you want just to mix the flour with water than KA can do it for 3 minutes. In most cases you even do not need mixer to do it.


Offline misterschu

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2013, 01:07:28 PM »
I think the pie looks really good!  I can see that you might want a better crumb in the cornice though.  You might also try using less flour on the peel, especially when you're taking it out of the oven.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2013, 12:12:40 AM »
I think mixing and kneading is deferent in terms and is deferent process. I agree if you want just to mix the flour with water than KA can do it for 3 minutes. In most cases you even do not need mixer to do it.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying, but I don't knead at all, nor do I autolyse (although I know I should give autolysis a try). Rather, I simply mix my dough for 3 minutes, then scale, round, and refrigerate.

I used to mix for at least 15 minutes (because I had been misled into believing my dough needed to meet some mystical level of gluten development), but then I realized I was trying to make pizza, not bread (or anything Alton Brown might consider pizza). So I stopped mixing for 15 minutes and started mixing for 3 minutes. As a consequence, my NY style pizzas instantly became considerably better.

Offline Sartanely

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2013, 12:43:06 PM »
I'm not quite sure what you're saying, but I don't knead at all, nor do I autolyse (although I know I should give autolysis a try). Rather, I simply mix my dough for 3 minutes, then scale, round, and refrigerate.

I used to mix for at least 15 minutes (because I had been misled into believing my dough needed to meet some mystical level of gluten development), but then I realized I was trying to make pizza, not bread (or anything Alton Brown might consider pizza). So I stopped mixing for 15 minutes and started mixing for 3 minutes. As a consequence, my NY style pizzas instantly became considerably better.

I have to give it try. So you just mix flour+water for 3 minutes.? Could you please post more details about your process. Want to see the outcome.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2013, 02:15:52 PM »
I have to give it try. So you just mix flour+water for 3 minutes.? Could you please post more details about your process. Want to see the outcome.

That's pretty much what I do.

While proving my ADY, I add flour and salt to my mixer bowl (as well as sugar, if the recipe calls for sugar). When the yeast water is foamy, I pour the yeast water into the mixer bowl, followed by the rest of the water. I attach the dough hook, raise the bowl, and start mixing on speed 2. I quickly set a timer for 3 minutes, then add oil once the dough starts coming together (after about a minute). 3 minutes is almost always the right mix time. Occasionally I do 2 minutes or 4 minutes just to make sure 3 minutes is right.

My short mix time was inspired by posts from scott123 nearly 3 years ago, in which he was helping out a new guy. If you've read many of Scott's posts, you've surely read his advice to go for a "cottage cheesy" texture (for NY style dough that will be refrigerated for at least 24 hours). Well, that's basically what I'm doing.

The "cottage cheesy" texture is more important than the specific mix time. While my mixer (which has a spiral dough hook) does the job in 3 minutes, I suspect the popular tilting-head KitchenAid mixer (with a j-hook) probably requires at least a couple more minutes.

This is not a great post (http://ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com/2012/09/ryans-new-york-style_21.html), but it does contain a few good pictures of what I'm talking about.

Offline arspistorica

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2013, 04:19:03 PM »
That's pretty much what I do.

While proving my ADY, I add flour and salt to my mixer bowl (as well as sugar, if the recipe calls for sugar). When the yeast water is foamy, I pour the yeast water into the mixer bowl, followed by the rest of the water. I attach the dough hook, raise the bowl, and start mixing on speed 2. I quickly set a timer for 3 minutes, then add oil once the dough starts coming together (after about a minute). 3 minutes is almost always the right mix time. Occasionally I do 2 minutes or 4 minutes just to make sure 3 minutes is right.

My short mix time was inspired by posts from scott123 nearly 3 years ago, in which he was helping out a new guy. If you've read many of Scott's posts, you've surely read his advice to go for a "cottage cheesy" texture (for NY style dough that will be refrigerated for at least 24 hours). Well, that's basically what I'm doing.

The "cottage cheesy" texture is more important than the specific mix time. While my mixer (which has a spiral dough hook) does the job in 3 minutes, I suspect the popular tilting-head KitchenAid mixer (with a j-hook) probably requires at least a couple more minutes.

This is not a great post (http://ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com/2012/09/ryans-new-york-style_21.html), but it does contain a few good pictures of what I'm talking about.


Just a side note, you don't need to "prove" dried yeast, either active-dry or instant-dry.  Just thought I'd share if you ever want to skip a step.
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2013, 04:42:05 PM »
I've considered many times that what you said may be true, but I've never had the balls to just try making a batch of dough without first hydrating my ADY (which is really what I'm doing, as opposed to proving it).

So if this is true. what happens if I use cold water to mix a batch of dough with ADY that hasn't already been hydrated in warm water? (I'm gonna go hydrate a spoonful of ADY in cold water to find out.)

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2013, 05:29:00 PM »
Preliminary results of ADY hydration test with cold water:

After about half an hour of hydrating 1 tsp of ADY in 40 g of cold water (coldest tap position; I don't have an appropriate thermometer), there is clearly something going on with the yeast, but it's nothing like what happens when I do the same thing using warm water. I don't know if that's because the cold water is not activating all the yeast or if it's because the cold water is activating the yeast at a much slower rate than I'm used to with warm water. I am probably going to make an experiment out of this subject because I am now very curious to see what will happen with various temperatures. However, I can't do much right now because I don't seem to have an appropriate thermometer.

Offline scott123

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2013, 05:30:34 PM »
My short mix time was inspired by posts from scott123 nearly 3 years ago, in which he was helping out a new guy. If you've read many of Scott's posts, you've surely read his advice to go for a "cottage cheesy" texture (for NY style dough that will be refrigerated for at least 24 hours). Well, that's basically what I'm doing.

FWIW, my thoughts on appearance have evolved to incorporate a more flour protein specific perspective.  The cottage cheese texture recommendation was/is for 14% protein flour (All Trumps), but, for the lower protein flours that I recommend now, I advise an appearance between cottage cheese and smooth, and, because of the innate superiority of the flour, if smooth (or even windowpane) is achieved, it's no big deal, because the potential for too much gluten development with 13%ish protein flours is just not there.

Cottage cheese with 14% flour (AT) is actually a pretty small target to hit and the risk of undermixed dough is pretty high, especially for beginners.  If the dough hasn't been mixed enough, it ends up with dry and wet areas that will wreak havoc on stretching.

In some parts of the U.S. you'll find AT is available, but not lower protein bromated flours (such as Full Strength). In those areas where one either has access to KABF or AT, for someone advanced, I might suggest the AT, but, for the beginner, I might suggest KABF, regardless of how much I worship at the bromate altar.  AT (and KASL) are way too easy to overwork.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2013, 05:34:34 PM »
After another 15 minutes or so, the yeast water is very foamy; much like what I would expect from ADY that has been hydrating in 100-degree water for 10 minutes.

Offline scott123

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Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2013, 05:35:15 PM »
So if this is true. what happens if I use cold water to mix a batch of dough with ADY that hasn't already been hydrated in warm water? (I'm gonna go hydrate a spoonful of ADY in cold water to find out.)

Ryan, I don't have the specifics in front of me, but ADY can do strange things with cold water. It does depend, though, what temperature you mean when you say cold.  The coldest tap should be okay, but I'm not certain.

I don't know how much ADY you have left, but, your next yeast purchase should be IDY.  As far as I can see, ADY serves no purpose over IDY, and it's temperature sensitivity just complicates things unnecessarily.