Author Topic: Standard NY Style  (Read 2508 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2013, 05:36:37 PM »
After another 15 minutes or so, the yeast water is very foamy; much like what I would expect from ADY that has been hydrating in 100-degree water for 10 minutes.

FWIW, the foaminess you're seeing isn't yeast activity, it's the swelling of the yeast as it hydrates.  Not that there's anything wrong with your ADY.


Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2013, 05:38:47 PM »
I've considered many times that what you said may be true, but I've never had the balls to just try making a batch of dough without first hydrating my ADY (which is really what I'm doing, as opposed to proving it).

So if this is true. what happens if I use cold water to mix a batch of dough with ADY that hasn't already been hydrated in warm water? (I'm gonna go hydrate a spoonful of ADY in cold water to find out.)

Incorporate the yeast with the dry ingredients, mix in water.  Proceed as normal.
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline Aimless Ryan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1926
  • Location: Grove City (Columbus), Ohio
    • Snarky
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2013, 05:41:04 PM »
The cottage cheese texture recommendation was/is for 14% protein flour (All Trumps)

I was thinking your advice may have been specific to very high protein flour like All Trumps, but I didn't think too hard about it because All Trumps is the only flour I've used for many years for NY Style. Thanks for clarifying your position, Scott.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2013, 05:49:32 PM »
Incorporate the yeast with the dry ingredients, mix in water.  Proceed as normal.

I've always been slightly concerned with my low knead doughs that the yeast, when added to the dry ingredients, might not dissolve enough to be fully dispersed through the dough. It's no more/no less labor to add it to the wet ingredients (oil, water), which allows it to fully dissolve before the flour is incorporated.

Offline Aimless Ryan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1926
  • Location: Grove City (Columbus), Ohio
    • Snarky
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2013, 05:51:09 PM »
FWIW, the foaminess you're seeing isn't yeast activity, it's the swelling of the yeast as it hydrates.  Not that there's anything wrong with your ADY.

Well, something is making the yeast go up. When I stirred the yeast water, the yeast was not at the top of the water. After I let the yeast water sit for half an hour, the yeast was still mostly not at the top of the water. 15 minutes later, a lot of yeast was above the water. I would expect yeast to absorb cold water at the same rate it absorbs warm water. That didn't happen here. My interpretation: Something more than water absorption is going on.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2013, 05:57:32 PM »
My interpretation: Something more than water absorption is going on.

There probably is. I only bring it up because, years ago, I've used ancient packets of yeast that were deader than dead, and when I proofed them, they foamed, so visual observation can be deceiving.

Buy IDY in a bottle ($4 Walmart), store it in a fridge, add it to your wet ingredients.  As long as it's bottled and stored correctly, you don't have to observe it. Packets are the only things you have to worry about- and no one here should be using those.

Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2013, 06:04:25 PM »
I've always been slightly concerned with my low knead doughs that the yeast, when added to the dry ingredients, might not dissolve enough to be fully dispersed through the dough. It's no more/no less labor to add it to the wet ingredients (oil, water), which allows it to fully dissolve before the flour is incorporated.

All preference, I guess, and you're right.  For extremely low inoculations (< .1%) whisking it into the wet (water, especially) makes more sense.
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22123
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2013, 08:56:48 PM »
Ryan,

Like Tom Lehmann, when someone wants to use ADY, my approach is to instruct them to use the ADY as recommended by the yeast producers. For ADY, there are basically two ways of rehydrating it. It can be rehydrated by dispersing it in warm water at a temperature of around 105 degrees F for about ten minutes, or it can be added dry to the other dry ingredients and then rehydrated by using water at a temperature of around 120 degrees F. In this latter case, the flour buffers the ADY so that it is not harmed by the warm water. However, the downside to this approach is that the finished dough temperature might be higher than desired because of the higher water temperature. So, the better approach is to use warm water at around 105 degrees F for about ten minutes. And that warm water should only be about 4-5 times the weight of the ADY. If all of the formula water is at around 105 degres F, you can end up with a finished dough temperature that is too high.

The above said, ADY can be added directly to the flour, and the dough recipe can be otherwise followed as instructed. However, the fermentation will be slowed down considerably and result in a very extended fermentation period. This can be a good thing or it can be a bad thing. For example, if you want the dough to endure several days of cold fermentation, you can add the ADY dry to the flour. I believe that is what Papa John's does with its dough to make it last 5-8 days. I was recently told that PJ does not let its dough get to the freezing point at any time during its journey from their commissaries to their stores. I believe that PJ uses ADY dry and in a small amount. I don't know of any other way to get their dough to last 5-8 days. To give you an example of what can happen when ADY is used dry in a dough, see Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308.

Using cold water to rehydrate yeast is also not a good idea. No form of yeast likes to be shocked with cold water, although fresh yeast perhaps can handle cold water better than either IDY or ADY. But there is a good reason for using warm water with ADY. ADY contains more dead cells than IDY, and the warm water is used to penetrate the dead cells to reach the live ones. Using cold water to rehydrate ADY will penalize its performance in a material way (reduced leavening performance). Glutathione might also be leached out of the yeast cells and result in a wet and slack dough. Some of the yeast cells might survive this abuse but that might mean that the fermentation period is pushed out for a period of time that is far longer than desired.

You are correct that proving yeast and rehydrating it are two different things although the terms are often used interchangeably. If you go to the websites of yeast producers and look at the FAQ on how yeast should be proved, you will find instructions that call for using about a tablespoon or a full packet of yeast to conduct the test. If you try to use much less yeast to test the viability of the yeast, their methods won't work. Often the dough recipes at the websites of yeast producers will call for using large amounts of yeast, so the proved yeast doesn't have to be discarded and can be used in such recipes. In such cases, proving and rehydrating the yeast are essentially synonymous.

Peter

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2013, 09:31:55 PM »
Using cold water to rehydrate yeast is also not a good idea. No form of yeast likes to be shocked with cold water, although fresh yeast perhaps can handle cold water better than either IDY or ADY.

Peter, when I first started being active on the forum, you sold me on the concept of refrigerating bottled yeast, so I know, for a fact, that you refrigerate. If the yeast is refrigerated and the water is refrigerated (or iced), will there be that much of a shock?

Besides, even if someone were to choose work with room temp yeast, I don't see any real need for ice water in a home environment.  Ice water, to me, is suited towards commercial environments, where the friction from the mixer drives the dough temp into excessive territories.  For home bakers working with far less dough/far less friction and batch sizes that can be cooled quickly in your average fridge, I don't see any need for very cold water, just cool to room temp.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22123
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2013, 10:20:59 PM »
Peter, when I first started being active on the forum, you sold me on the concept of refrigerating bottled yeast, so I know, for a fact, that you refrigerate. If the yeast is refrigerated and the water is refrigerated (or iced), will there be that much of a shock?

Besides, even if someone were to choose work with room temp yeast, I don't see any real need for ice water in a home environment.  Ice water, to me, is suited towards commercial environments, where the friction from the mixer drives the dough temp into excessive territories.  For home bakers working with far less dough/far less friction and batch sizes that can be cooled quickly in your average fridge, I don't see any need for very cold water, just cool to room temp.
Scott,

I store my dry yeast in the freezer. In so doing, I use the storage method as described by Tom Lehmann in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15279.msg150808/topicseen.html#msg150808. It is possible to store yeast for near-term use in the refrigerator, but I personally don't do that. You will also read that some members only use the refrigerator for yeast storage, not the freezer. However, there is no way of knowing what amount of harm has been done to the yeast. Volume measurement of yeast can be subject to much variation (e.g., level, scant and heaping measurements), and even weighing the yeast might also be misleading since dry yeast might absorb water from its surroundings. Also, a scale that can weigh small amounts of yeast needs to be properly calibrated, and you can't breathe when you are doing the measurement so that you don't affect the scale's reading ;D.

I never subject dry yeast directly to cold water. I only use ADY when a recipe calls for it but I always add IDY to the flour. At that point, I can use water at just about any temperature I want, even ice water. The harm of subjecting dry yeast directly to cold water is that the cold water can release glutathione from the yeast cells, as previously mentioned. That does not happen with dry yeast that is properly stored while in the freezer. Since Ryan does not have a thermometer to accurately measure the temperature of the water he used to prehydrate the ADY, it is hard to say what affect the water temperature he used had on the ADY. BTW, Tom discusses the shock problem in Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25253.msg254986/topicseen.html#msg254986.

You are correct that in a home setting there may not be a great need to use cold water. However, cold water, and even ice cold water, can, by design, slow down the fermentation process so that the dough can have an exceptionally long fermentation window. I have done this intentionally many times when I wanted to get a long fermentation window. Doing this has given me finished dough temperatures in the roughly 65+ degrees F range. I think that this is a better approach than just using a smaller amount of yeast.

Peter





scott123

  • Guest
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2013, 11:34:19 PM »
Peter, if the yeast is refrigerated or frozen, which, imo, is a practice all of the forum members should be following, then when cold or frozen yeast meets cold or very cold water, there's no disparity in temp- there is no shock, thus, no 'shock problem.'

I think that this is a better approach than just using a smaller amount of yeast.

You think or you know?  :) I'm all for experimenting with every possible permutation of fermentation time, so any practice that improves upon exceptionally long ferments is a good one, but is there any proof that using colder water is any superior to using less yeast?  You could say that, as you get into this quantity of yeast, measuring becomes an issue, but isn't this what dash/pinch/smidgeon measuring spoons are for?

If the manner in which IDY is incorporated into dough only becomes a concern when the water is cold- only becomes complex with cold water, why not opt for the less complex, hassle free approach of using less yeast for exceptionally long ferments rather than colder water?

For me, if cold water is such a glutathione infested can of worms, and there's no proof that using less yeast is any less effective, why not avoid the hassle of using cold water?

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22144
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2013, 08:02:32 AM »
Scott,

At market where the temperatures can vary very much in the summer when it is very hot I do use all cold water from the cooler and also found I have to use less yeast (IDY) so my dough balls don't ferment too much thoughout the next day in the coolers.  I usually end up with a decent final dough temperature and less yeast does not seem harmful for me.  My dough batches also are in higher temperatures during the summer when they are cut, scaled, balled and oiled.  My coolers also work harder in those hot conditions and they don't keep the constant lower temperatures they do when it is cooler.  The coolers do stay within the limits though.

Usually in the summer at home I also use less yeast if my kitchen is hot in combination with cold or cooler water.  I don't know really what is right but if someone doesn't work out exactly right the dough balls can be tempered for a longer period at room temperature or put into to help them warm up more.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22123
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2013, 09:41:17 AM »
Peter, if the yeast is refrigerated or frozen, which, imo, is a practice all of the forum members should be following, then when cold or frozen yeast meets cold or very cold water, there's no disparity in temp- there is no shock, thus, no 'shock problem.'

You think or you know?  :) I'm all for experimenting with every possible permutation of fermentation time, so any practice that improves upon exceptionally long ferments is a good one, but is there any proof that using colder water is any superior to using less yeast?  You could say that, as you get into this quantity of yeast, measuring becomes an issue, but isn't this what dash/pinch/smidgeon measuring spoons are for?

If the manner in which IDY is incorporated into dough only becomes a concern when the water is cold- only becomes complex with cold water, why not opt for the less complex, hassle free approach of using less yeast for exceptionally long ferments rather than colder water?

For me, if cold water is such a glutathione infested can of worms, and there's no proof that using less yeast is any less effective, why not avoid the hassle of using cold water?
Scott,

You drive a hard bargain, LOL. But I love it.

Addressing first the shocking shock issue, I think most people will find that by the time they make a dough with dry yeast that has been stored in the refrigerator or freezer, its temperature will have quickly reached or approached room temperature. In fact, if you do a search on how to use dry yeast that has been frozen or refrigerated you will generally find two schools of thought: let the yeast warm up at room temperature before using or just use the yeast right out of the refrigerator or freezer. You will find advocates in great numbers on each side of the issue. I am not sure it really matters which way you go. I suspect that most people remove the yeast from the refrigerator or freezer and set it aside as they prepare the rest of the ingredients. In my case, I add the yeast (IDY) to the flour as soon as I have measured it out. That way, I won't forget the yeast. The yeast in my case is cold right out of the freezer, but I do stir it into the flour. By the time I get the rest of the ingredients measured out and am ready to make the dough, the yeast should be at the same temperature as the flour, which is at room temperature. Also, the amount of yeast that I typically use is quite small so it will warm up very quickly.

You are correct that there are specialty measuring spoons that can be used to measure out very small amounts of yeast. I have a set of those mini-measuring spoons and use them as much as possible. But from what I can tell, not many of our members use them. They are more likely to use special scales that can weigh out small amounts of yeast.

BTW, it isn't only yeast that warms up fairly quickly to room temperature. I remember experimenting with flour that was kept cold, either in the refrigerator or in the freezer. The idea came from Bev Collins, who had worked for years in R&D at Domino's. What I discovered is that flour also quickly approaches room temperature in preparation for making the dough, and far faster than I ever imagined. I also discovered that cold dough ingredients, including cold water, make it harder to form the dough so that the flour is properly hydrated, and as a result it takes the mixer longer to get the dough to the desired condition.  By that time, the finished dough temperature is about where it would have been if room temperature flour and a shorter mix/knead time had been used.

With respect to the quoted language in your post, I intentionally left the sentence hanging, with the expectation that you or someone else might query me on it. I also intentionally used the word "think" instead of "know", simply because I do not know for sure that controlling water temperature is better than using less yeast (or more yeast for that matter). I have often debated in my own mind whether yeast quantity is a more powerful force than temperature. I still don't know the answer. However, one of the things that I have taken away from Tom Lehmann's writings is that as between adjusting the amount of yeast and adjusting water temperature, he tends to favor adjusting water temperature, specifically, to achieve a desired finished dough temperature. In this vein, a pizza operator might be tempted to adjust for seasonal changes by simply using more or less yeast rather than adjusting the water temperature. In most such cases, Tom advises that they first try adjusting the water temperature to achieve the desired finished dough temperature. I am sure that this type of advice is most useful in a commercial settings since it is far easier to train workers to adjust water temperature than yeast quantity. However, as Norma noted, adjusting water temperature alone does not always work. In such cases, there is nothing wrong in adjusting yeast quantiy in addition to water temperature.

The above aside, there are also other reasons for not simply reducing the amount of yeast. If the yeast quantity is too low, there may be inadequate fermentation and one can end up with a finished crust that is unacceptably dense and flat. Also, if insufficiently fermented, the crust can have a sour taste. Papa John's knows this and that is the reason why they do not want the workers in their stores using the dough before three days of cold fermentation.

I also discovered the risks of using too little yeast in a cold fermented dough from an experiment I conducted several years ago. After having made doughs that cold fermented for over twenty days, and were used successfully, I wondered how far I could push the envelope as far as the duration of cold fementation was concerned yet still have a functional dough. So, I decided to use several methods that were typically used to extend the duration of cold fermentation. I used ice cold water, I used a very small amount of IDY, and I added the IDY toward the end of the dough preparation. I don't recall if I used cold flour, which I was aware of at the time, but I stored the dough in a metal container that I had precooled in the freezer. I used salt at around 2%, which was higher than I would normally use, but I did not want the salt to impede the performance of the yeast to the point where the dough would not be a functional dough. I used no oil and I used no sugar. I observed the dough as it cold fermented. I did this on a daily basis. And what did the dough do? Nothing. After better than two weeks, still nothing. I finally decided to see how the dough handled since a live dough, even one with very little yeast, will feel alive. In this instance, the dough felt dead, much like putty in my hands. I concluded that the steps I took in effect neutered the yeast. I never repeated the experiment but maybe had I used more yeast, as I did with the experiments with long-lived doughs with normal amounts of yeast that were successful, I might have achieved the results I was looking for.

Over the years, I have conducted many other experiments dealing with cold. I have used refrigerated or frozen flour. I have used shaved ice and only solid ice cubes in lieu of water. I have frozen dough in the freezer to lower its finished dough temperature before moving into the refrigerator compartment. I have used cold metal storage containers. I have used refrigerator versions of crossstacking and downstacking (with single dough balls). I have made doughs that were intended at the outset to be frozen, using many of the techniques used by commercial outfits that make frozen dough balls. And what I found remarkable about these experiments is how yeast is such a resilient ingredient. But the experiment I described above told me that, as resilient as yeast is, there are limits as to what you can do to it.

Peter

Offline Sartanely

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 37
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2013, 12:00:22 PM »
I only use fresh yeast available in 2 oz cubes at most grocery stores in all type of doughs including pizzas and I think it gives it better flavor and keeps the baked product  fresh longer. Had no problem adding it to the cold water.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22123
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2013, 12:48:09 PM »
I only use fresh yeast available in 2 oz cubes at most grocery stores in all type of doughs including pizzas and I think it gives it better flavor and keeps the baked product  fresh longer. Had no problem adding it to the cold water.
Sartanely,

Fresh yeast, aka cake or compressed yeast, is about 70% water so it does not rehydrating. It can be crumbled in with the dry ingredients. It can also be dissolved in water if desired but even then it is best to use the 90-95 degrees F water recommended by yeast producers (e.g., see http://www.redstaryeast.com/lessons-yeast-baking/yeast-types-usage/cake-fresh-yeast.

Fresh yeast has become harder and harder to find in supermarkets these days. I was recently in a high end supermarket near me and I went to the bakery department that makes and bakes their baked goods and asked to speak with a baker. I asked the fellow who was said to be the baker whether they used fresh yeast or dry yeast. He replied that they used dry yeast. When I told him that I was looking for fresh yeast and that there was none in the store, he suggested that I go to the aisle where the dry yeasts were located. I told him that there were only dry yeasts there and he said that I should go back and look again. I had to bite my tongue to keep from exposing his ignorance in front of his co-workers. And he was alleged to be a baker.

Peter

Offline Sartanely

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 37
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2013, 11:32:01 AM »
Sartanely,

Fresh yeast, aka cake or compressed yeast, is about 70% water so it does not rehydrating. It can be crumbled in with the dry ingredients. It can also be dissolved in water if desired but even then it is best to use the 90-95 degrees F water recommended by yeast producers (e.g., see http://www.redstaryeast.com/lessons-yeast-baking/yeast-types-usage/cake-fresh-yeast.

Fresh yeast has become harder and harder to find in supermarkets these days. I was recently in a high end supermarket near me and I went to the bakery department that makes and bakes their baked goods and asked to speak with a baker. I asked the fellow who was said to be the baker whether they used fresh yeast or dry yeast. He replied that they used dry yeast. When I told him that I was looking for fresh yeast and that there was none in the store, he suggested that I go to the aisle where the dry yeasts were located. I told him that there were only dry yeasts there and he said that I should go back and look again. I had to bite my tongue to keep from exposing his ignorance in front of his co-workers. And he was alleged to be a baker.

Peter

It is usually in refrigerator section where the eggs, yogurt etc, are sold. They increased the price of it I pay $3.15.
You have to look for expiration dates they last 4 weeks if refrigerated.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22123
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2013, 01:23:53 PM »
It is usually in refrigerator section where the eggs, yogurt etc, are sold. They increased the price of it I pay $3.15.
You have to look for expiration dates they last 4 weeks if refrigerated.
That is where I last saw fresh yeast in the supermarkets near me.  And that is several years ago.

Peter

Offline Sartanely

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 37
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2013, 04:41:20 PM »
I have to give it try. So you just mix flour+water for 3 minutes.? Could you please post more details about your process. Want to see the outcome.

I made pizzas today based on your formula and 3 minute mixing method. It turned out successful. Pies come out light and flavorful. I used 0.5 % fresh  yeast instead iDY. Baked them on steel. Thank you

Offline Aimless Ryan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1926
  • Location: Grove City (Columbus), Ohio
    • Snarky
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2013, 04:47:57 PM »
Funny. I just made a pizza for the first time in a few months, out of dough that I mixed for 3 minutes, and I feel like I should have mixed for at least another minute. The pizza was not so pretty, but it tasted good. Yours looks much better than mine. I did take a few pics, but I don't know if I'm gonna share them.

Offline mbrulato

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 969
  • Location: NJ
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Standard NY Style
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2013, 05:16:43 PM »
I made pizzas today based on your formula and 3 minute mixing method. It turned out successful. Pies come out light and flavorful. I used 0.5 % fresh  yeast instead iDY. Baked them on steel. Thank you

Nice crumb!
Mary Ann