Author Topic: Am I doing the right thing?  (Read 886 times)

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Offline ragtime27

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Am I doing the right thing?
« on: January 04, 2014, 03:02:06 AM »
Hi,
i've been using this recipe for a while.
the issue Am I mixing the right ratio .
pizza baked on Italian commercial stone oven (pizza group).
thin crust 12inch size peeling it with hands and wood roller(should i avoid the roller?)
temperature at around 380c.
caputo tipo 00 flour 3100grams
water from tap 1.8 litres.
75-80 grams salt.
10grams instant dried yeast
6-8 tablespoon extra virgin oil,whilst it's mixing
mixed for about 3mins.
rest 10-15mins,divided into 210-215grams ball,goes to the fridge 7c for 6 hours and using it straight from the fridge.
should i take the balls from fridge outside for a while before use?
I feel i'm not in control of the dough sometimes cracks like crisps when it is cooked,is it because hasn't rested enough?
should I add dry milk or leave it as it is?
please let me know how to tweak it a bit.
many thanks


member of staff tend to alter the water(1.7ltr) to get a hard ball for easier work,generally i'm against it,purely for water reduction,should i allow it,is 1.7ltr enough


Online mitchjg

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2014, 09:54:53 AM »
Using the information you provided, I entered the data into the Lehman dough calculator and came up with the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (58.06%):
IDY (0.32258%):
Salt (2.5806%):
Oil (3%):
Total (163.96318%):
Single Ball:
3100.02 g  |  109.35 oz | 6.83 lbs
1799.87 g  |  63.49 oz | 3.97 lbs
10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3.32 tsp | 1.11 tbsp
80 g | 2.82 oz | 0.18 lbs | 5.56 tbsp | 0.35 cups
93 g | 3.28 oz | 0.21 lbs | 6.89 tbsp | 0.43 cups
5082.88 g | 179.29 oz | 11.21 lbs | TF = 0.0660532
211.79 g | 7.47 oz | 0.47 lbs

I had to triangulate on the total ingredients you specified with the size of a dough ball to back into the thickness factor (and also assumed a 2% allowance for residue/waste in mixing.

With that, some comments:

The overall hydration is 58%.  Many here use more than that (say 60% - 65%) but several also use a hydration the same as yours.  That, in itself, should not be a big issue with Caputo 00.

The overall oil of 3% is probably causing the dough to behave more like 61% hydration.  That, in itself, is also fine.

But, 3% is pretty high for oil content.  Embedded in this comment is the assumption you are striving for a Neapolitan style pizza.  This is primarily based on the use of Caputo 00 flour.  If so, then 3% is higher than typical.  Most here, but not all, go for 0%.

Also, the temperature of 380 C (716 F) is very low for using Caputo 00.  Most experts here cook with that flour at temperatures more like 450 C and higher (and for around 90 seconds or less) when using 00.  My guess is that the low temperature (for that flour) is causing you to bake for longer than this (3 + minutes?).  I would guess that is the cause of the cracking / crispiness.

Also, I guess at a thickness factor of .066.  I backed into it using the pizza size and the size of the dough balls you described.  This is pretty thin.  It easily could be the cause of the cracking/crispiness.

Mix time of 3 minutes seems low.

My personal attempt at answers to your questions:

The ratios seem fine.  But, depending on your pizza objective (Neapolitan?), you may want to consider less/zero oil and upping the difference with more water.

Use of wood rollers is discouraged by most here.  Reduces the rise/puff in the pizza.

If the dough is refrigerated, consider removing it from the fridge an hour or two before using it.

If you can get the temperature up, as I described, give it a try.

Alternatively, if you want to maintain the same temperature, you can probably leave the formula as is and try a different flour.  An ordinary bread flour (malted) is probably a good place to start.

Much of what I said is based on some assumptions and guesses made using the information you provided - pizza type (Neapolitan?), thickness factor (total formula compared to dough ball size), etc.

Let us know more about your goals and if the assumptions and guesses seem right or not.

Caveat: I am an avid amateur that has learned much here, but an amateur nonetheless.

- Mitch

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2014, 10:41:18 AM »
Caveat: I am an avid amateur that has learned much here, but an amateur nonetheless.

Mitch,

You could have fooled me. You did a great job with your analysis, and clearly you have been paying attention to what you have been reading on the forum.

The only thing I would add is that Tom Lehmann recommends that IDY be prehydrated in warm water, at 95 degrees F, if the mix time is less than 4-5 minutes. See Tom's PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7527&p=51038&hilit#p51038 and at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7684&p=52689&hilit=#p52689.

Peter

Online mitchjg

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2014, 11:02:00 AM »
Mitch,

You could have fooled me. You did a great job with your analysis, and clearly you have been paying attention to what you have been reading on the forum.


What an honor, thanks!  ;D

I am on this forum, learning, much more often than my family thinks is "normal."  I have come a very long way with your help (you jumped in to help on my first post) and that of so many others.  Glad to be at the point where I can help others.

- Mitch


Offline ragtime27

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2014, 11:28:51 AM »
thank you Mitch at least now i can use percentage rather than grams.
I'am aiming for a thin Italian pizza not necessarily neapolitan one,the oven can only go up to 400c,next month we going for a new double oven(zanolli) instead of single one to help to keep the temp high on busy period
i love olive oil in everything even for breakfast hence why i go mad on the pizza  dough,it gives it tasty flavour.

does anyone know if the x olive oil have any negative side effect if used with excess?

what lack of hydration does to the pizza?

cracking pizza mainly happens when the dough hasn't rested,i want to found out if is the case or there is another reason for the cracking?for example lack of hydration...etc.

Offline ragtime27

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2014, 11:35:08 AM »
" if the mix time is less than 4-5 min"
i can increase the mixing time,does longer mix not damage the gluten?

can i just use 95 F for the yeast instead of the entire hydration and for how long before adding flour?

thanks pete
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 11:39:58 AM by ragtime27 »

Online mitchjg

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2014, 12:23:54 PM »
How long are you cooking the pizza in the oven?

Offline ragtime27

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2014, 12:58:37 PM »
For about two and half minute on 380 to 400c

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2014, 01:56:41 PM »
i love olive oil in everything even for breakfast hence why i go mad on the pizza  dough,it gives it tasty flavour.

does anyone know if the x olive oil have any negative side effect if used with excess?

what lack of hydration does to the pizza?
ragtime27,

Depending on the type of olive oil you are using, and its natural color and flavor, if used in excess it might impart its hue to the dough, and its flavor might be too pronounced. But, at 3%, I don't see a problem with either color or flavor. If you go too much above 3%, you can expect increases tenderness in the finished crust due to the retention of more moisture in the dough.

With respect to the hydration, if it is too low, the dough balls will be harder to open up to form skins without using a machine for that purpose. That is where the benefit of the oil comes in because the oil make the dough more extensible and easier to work with. Also, all else being equal, a low hydration dough will ferment more slowly than a highly hydrated dough and it will have a tighter, less open and less airy crumb.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 04:34:57 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2014, 02:12:44 PM »
" if the mix time is less than 4-5 min"
i can increase the mixing time,does longer mix not damage the gluten?

can i just use 95 F for the yeast instead of the entire hydration and for how long before adding flour?

ragtime27,

Most common 00 flours do not have a great deal of gluten-forming protein to begin with so a longer knead time is often used to more fully develop the gluten. According to member pizzanapoletana (Marco), who specializes in the Neapolitan style of pizza using 00 flour, it can take anywhere from 10-30 minutes to knead a commercial batch of dough using 00 flour. However, that is using a fork mixer, although dual arm and spiral mixers, which are also fairly gentle mixing machines, can also be used. The knead times will be different if a planetary mixer is used. Marco discusses the above matter at Reply 164 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13809.html#msg13809, as well as other places on the forum.

The way to prehydrate IDY if a short mix time is to be used is to use an amount of the formula water that is about 4-5 times the weight of the IDY. That water is used to prehydrate the IDY. That prehydration water should be at about 95 degrees F. After the IDY has been prehydrated, it can be either added to the mixer bowl or to the remaining formula water. The temperature of the remaining formula water should be such as to produce a finished dough temperature of about 80 degrees F (if a commercial cooler is to be used to hold the dough balls during fermentation).

Peter


Offline ragtime27

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2014, 11:01:39 AM »
thank you Pete for all the links,they are useful and they are leading me to more links which creates more questions.

after prehydrate the yeast, mixing with the rest of the water and mixing the dough,also trying to acheive 80F,do you recommend leaving the dough outside for a while or putting it in fridge straighaway?
thanks

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2014, 03:10:30 PM »
after prehydrate the yeast, mixing with the rest of the water and mixing the dough,also trying to acheive 80F,do you recommend leaving the dough outside for a while or putting it in fridge straighaway?
thanks

ragtime27,

Different professionals use different methods for preparing the dough for cold storage. Some let the dough rise in bulk for a while, to jump start the fermentation process, but others go directly to the cooler as quickly as possible. In some cases, as where a dough has to last several days, for example, five to eight days, the dough needs some initial fermentation. This is the method used by Papa John's in its commissaries in the U.S. In most other cases, the amount of yeast can be adjusted to allow the dough balls to ferment for the desired period, which is when the dough must be ready to make pizza for customers.

Evelyne Sloman, who wrote a book on pizza making and knew just about all of the old pizza masters in New York City, discusses the above subject toward the end of her post at Reply 455 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28773/topicseen.html#msg28773. As for Tom Lehmann, he generally advises going to the cooler as soon as possible. See, for example, the general dough preparation and management procedures as outlined in Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554/topicseen.html#msg64554. If one is able to consistently achieve the finished dough temperature that Tom recommends, his procedures are more likely to produce more consistent and uniform results because there is no intermediate room temperature, which can vary quite widely over the course of a year, to contend with or to compensate for.

Peter

Offline kerrymarcy

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2014, 12:34:57 PM »
Mitch,

You could have fooled me. You did a great job with your analysis, and clearly you have been paying attention to what you have been reading on the forum.

The only thing I would add is that Tom Lehmann recommends that IDY be prehydrated in warm water, at 95 degrees F, if the mix time is less than 4-5 minutes. See Tom's PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7527&p=51038&hilit#p51038 and at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7684&p=52689&hilit=#p52689.

Peter



Peter,

Is stretch-and-folds with rests between considered mixing/kneading with respect to the 4-5 minute requirement before you have to pre-hydrate IDY?  If you mix, for say, 3 minutes and stretch-and-fold with 5 minute rests between for a total of 4 times, does this satisfy Tom's prerequisite? 

Kerry
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 12:36:33 PM by kerrymarcy »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2014, 02:21:15 PM »
Is stretch-and-folds with rests between considered mixing/kneading with respect to the 4-5 minute requirement before you have to pre-hydrate IDY?  If you mix, for say, 3 minutes and stretch-and-fold with 5 minute rests between for a total of 4 times, does this satisfy Tom's prerequisite? 
Kerry,

Except when Tom responds to members on this forum, his advice is mostly to professionals and, with rare exception, such as a Brian Spangler or other artisan pizza maker, they do not use stretch and folds. However, I would say that the regimen you described would be sufficient to avoid prehydrating the IDY. So, the IDY can be added directly to the flour without first prehydrating it.

Peter

Offline kerrymarcy

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Re: Am I doing the right thing?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2014, 06:03:58 PM »
Thanks Peter!