Author Topic: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.  (Read 4805 times)

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Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2013, 06:10:15 PM »
Your ovens look like 981's.  They are not a very good pizza oven IMO.  there is only one burner that heats both decks.  It is around 50,000 btu's per oven.  Does the thermostat go to 500?   00 flour will not be good for deck oven pizza.  That is used for traditional WFO neopolitan pies.  I would use GM All Trumps, GM full Strength, Pendelton power.   These are your best choices IMO.  I lived for 15 years in CA and couldn't get GM bromated flours but did ok with the Pendelton.  I don't know what you mean by a sheet?  We hand toss, dust the peel, put the skin on it, top it, and slide it direct to the stones.  Again, like I said there are a lot of ways to make pizza.  Many people cook pies in pans.  For me all dough, pizza, bread, bagels, has to cook direct on stone for the right texture.  Walter

The temp in the oven can go over 550, we usually put it on around 560-570. By sheet I mean the little trays we put the pizza on to avoid burning the bottom of the dough, keeping the dough from direct contact of the oven.

Everything we have is very low quality. Its just sad. We're missing the nozzles that spin to raise/lower the temp so we have to use pliers.


Offline waltertore

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2013, 06:16:09 PM »
The temp in the oven can go over 550, we usually put it on around 560-570. By sheet I mean the little trays we put the pizza on to avoid burning the bottom of the dough, keeping the dough from direct contact of the oven.

Everything we have is very low quality. Its just sad. We're missing the nozzles that spin to raise/lower the temp so we have to use pliers.

Again, I admire your enthusiasim but it sounds like your project is not slated for success unless you live in an area, like I do now, that has very low expectations for pizza and even with that, the level of skill you all have at this moment makes success a very unlikely thing right now.    IMO you need to get some professional help in there ASAP.  Good luck and I hope it all comes together for you.  Walter
The Smiling With Hope Bakery- A bakery with a purpose
http://www.newarkadvocate.com/article/20140124/NEWS01/301240031/Bakery-run-by-students-disabilities-earns-pizza-profile

Spontobeat- the spontaneous music concept I have created and how I spontaneously live my life   http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=157137 200 of my most current songs http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=157137&content=widgets

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2013, 06:22:35 PM »
I just feel so lost and confused. I feel like I'm the only one in the shop trying to improve things and it's probably annoying the rest of the staff. But honestly, screw them. They can quit and i'd  prefer it if they did quit because that way I can at least find a person who's got some experience working with pizza that I can also learn from and communicate with. It may sound harsh but every time I try something new and mess up, they get all upset like they know how to make pizza and treat me like I'm the amateur...   I agree with you and at the end of the day, it isn't my business. If it was, i would have kept closed until my staff felt comfortable with what they were putting out. Right now we're just running around like chickens with our head cut off.

I appreciate your help and advice Walter, along with everybody who posted. I may be in over my head.

Offline waltertore

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2013, 06:43:15 PM »
You are welcome and all is not lost.  Find a place that you really love the pizza and get a job there.  That is the best way to learn.  Your enthusiasim is obvious.  I would hire you on that knowing in time your passion would make you into a top class pizza maker.  Where you are now is going to be a trainwreck from now until it closes its doors with unskilled people, and marginal equipment at best.  You will have learned very little to nothing about making good pizza, a lot about making bad ones, and nothing about doing it in a commercial setting successfully.  Stories like this make me wonder who would open a pizzeria with no knowledge and unskilled staff?  I guess the owner has money to burn literally.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 07:27:41 PM by waltertore »
The Smiling With Hope Bakery- A bakery with a purpose
http://www.newarkadvocate.com/article/20140124/NEWS01/301240031/Bakery-run-by-students-disabilities-earns-pizza-profile

Spontobeat- the spontaneous music concept I have created and how I spontaneously live my life   http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=157137 200 of my most current songs http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=157137&content=widgets

Offline ThePieman

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2013, 05:56:10 PM »
We open on Friday, been practicing all week


 :o

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2013, 10:02:46 PM »
Man these guys are semi annoying. I need someone to come in and train us all. These guys know nothing and are trying to teach me! They tell me to keep adding flour to the dough and just use a roller. They add so much flour I feel like theyre drying out and killing the dough.. If thats how they want to do it im just going to encourage the owner to get a sheeter. Maybe we can find and pay someone to train us to work with what we have.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 10:17:47 PM by PizzaGuy209 »

Online scott123

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2013, 11:06:22 PM »
BJ, learn how to make great pizza at home and then bring a slice to your boss and have him compare.  Once he tastes good pizza, he'll be on board with whatever changes you want to make.

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2013, 01:14:32 AM »
Trying this new recipe at the shop, im pumped. No sugar no oil. I wonder how easy the dough will be to handle with this new recipe.

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2013, 04:20:25 AM »
I'd like to let you all know how grateful I am to have such supportive and intelligent people like you giving me advice!

I'd like to especially thank Scott for taking the time to give me a couple pointers via PM. Im going in tomorrow with a new recipe and attitude. Thanks everyone! I'll keep you updated in this thread :chef: :pizza: :-D :drool: ::)

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2013, 09:51:32 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmH6w19k-X8&feature=youtu.be

Video of mixing process^

First image is the flour that my boss said we use, he threw out the bag so...yeah. Ill go by his word.

2nd image is the yeast...

3rd image is the oil, yeast, and room temp water (not warm or cold, just right)

4th is the rolled balls.

5th is the balls in the container, in the fridge.

6th is the 2 containers im using, the one on top has 4 balls, I'm going to open that tomorrow.
The one on the bottom, I put a bag around the container and then put the lid on afterwards. This will be opened on monday.

7th img is the fridge temp. It was on like 25 before.

8th image is our flour in a barrel.

i have a bunch more
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 09:55:35 PM by PizzaGuy209 »


Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2013, 10:02:05 PM »
more pics of equipment and stuff.

The bag that says 'Hotel and Restaurant All Purpose Flour' is the flour we used to use. We switched to high gluten after I did some googling and talked to some people, we just use that older flour for our hands and when we stretch the dough..
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 10:03:39 PM by PizzaGuy209 »

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2013, 10:06:01 PM »
I just realized I've been telling everyone that I was using IDY when its active dry yeast. 0.o

Offline norma427

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2013, 10:41:29 PM »
BJ,

It seems like you are moving in the right direction.    :D

I noticed that you dough wanted to climb the dough hook though.  I don't know if you might be interested but the one video of my Hobart mixing my dough is at Reply 571 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg278116.html#msg278116    The second part of the mix of the same dough batch is at Reply 574 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg278135.html#msg278135  I do mix longer in the second mix than that video now as I referenced before in your thread at Reply 12 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,28685.msg288670.html#msg288670

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Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2013, 10:58:40 PM »
Ahh I see what you're talking about Norma!

The ingredients I'm using is

Flour - 10 lbs
Water - 6 lbs
Yeast - 2.5 tbsp
Salt - 4.7 tbsp
Oil - 4.7 oz (I mix the yeast, oil, and water by hand in the mixer, then add the dry ingredients)
Sugar - 3.7 tbsp

Made 10 dough balls, 26 oz each.

I noticed you used a lot more oil than I used. I could try putting 2 oz oil in the water first, mix, then near the end add 2.7 oz oil.

Edit, just watched that other video you shared.

So, basically I pull out a small handful, ball to an egg shape and push down then spread it with my thumbs and if it rips, it's not ready and I should mix longer?

Also thought i'd add, I added a small pizza (no toppings) to the oven without a metal sheet beneath it and IT DIDN'T BURN!!!! It came out beautiful actually. I was very pleased. Im learning so much from all you wonderful people... I'd never be able to do this without you all so again, THANK YOU ALL! I'm very grateful.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 11:10:50 PM by PizzaGuy209 »

Offline norma427

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2013, 11:30:48 PM »
BJ,

I am not sure with the math in converting ingredients from volume measurements to baker's percentages but if those were what Scott gave you to use you should be okay.  I use a cheaper digital scale to weigh my ingredients and my scaled dough for my dough balls.  If you are interested in seeing what my digital scale looks like this is what it looks like.  http://www.webstaurantstore.com/tor-rey-pzc-5-10-lb-digital-pizza-controller-portion-scale-with-foot-tare-pedal/166PZC510.html  I find I can get a better dough using a digital scale because weighing with a regular scale sometimes the flour and other ingredients can be off.

I found I do get a better dough and more consistent if I use Tom Lehmann's and Jeff Zeaks video using the “hens egg test?  You might be okay if you use less oil using your method.  If your dough wants to climb the dough hook you might want to try stopping your Hobart and take the dough off of the climbing hook to see if it mixes better the second time.  I am not sure what percentage of water you are using now to know if that is why you dough wants to climb the dough hook.  I only use speed one but your Hobart might mix differently than mine. 

I use the dough calculation tools to make sure I know what weights to use.  A good one is the Lehmann dough calculator at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html or the Expanded dough calculator at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html  Using one of those tools is easy and if you then want to scale your dough formulation up or down it is quick to be able to do that.   

Do you take the final dough temperatures of your batches of dough?

Norma
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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2013, 11:55:50 PM »
BJ, adding oil late to the mix was a practice that originated in high oil doughs. If you're using a lot of oil, if you add it at the beginning, it can inhibit gluten formation and mess with your dough.  For lower oil doughs, like the one you're doing, though, it's completely unnecessary. Peter has added the oil both ways and found no discernible difference, as have I. Just add all the oil to the water, as you did today.

Not only would adding oil late during the mix be unnecessary, I think, in your instance, it would be especially counterproductive. Do you recall our conversation about certain mixers being happiest with particular quantities of dough?  I think 10 lb. of flour makes too little dough for this mixer- hence the excessive hook creep.  If you add the oil at the point where the dough has already started to form around the hook, there's a high probability that it might not incorporate evenly.

It won't resolve the hook creep completely, but I believe this mixer should be happier with a larger quantity of dough.  If you are going to continue to do 10 lb. flour batches, as Norma suggested, periodically scrape the dough off the hook.

The egg test, like late oil, is, again, not applicable to your dough.  These kinds of tests to determine gluten development in kneaded dough (egg, windowpane) were born from same day doughs that didn't get a lot of gluten development during the fermentation. Time = gluten development. When you ferment overnight or more, you do not need that much gluten development during the initial kneading. The egg test takes a dough to less gluten development than windowpane, but it's still too much gluten development for a 24+ hour dough- especially one with a protein level of your flour, which is not as high as some flours, but, is still a tiny bit too high to not have to worry about excessive gluten formation.

Some other thoughts.

Don't sweat the ADY too much. As I said privately, you're dough most likely won't be perfectly fermented this time around. Get IDY for the next batch, though.

Get real proofing containers.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/cambro-db18266cw-white-pizza-dough-proofing-box-18-x-26-x-6/214DB18266CW.html

Home bakers can get away with storage boxes, but, in a commercial environment, you want a container that will form a good seal, yet still allow gas to escape.

There's not a lot of good videos on balling, but I need to track one down.  Your dough balls are looking a little misshapen.  One of the most important aspects with dough balls is that they are pinched shut and sealed.  If they aren't sealed, stretching can be a hassle.

Tomatoes- I can't really tell from the photo, but what tomatoes are you using? They look a little on the dark side. You're not cooking the tomatoes or using a paste, right?

The lowest speed is all you'll ever need for that mixer.

Overall, for your first time making this dough, it looks pretty good. With the ADY, I'm not really sure where the fermentation is going to be tomorrow, but I'm confident that this dough should be better than what you were working with.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 11:59:52 PM by scott123 »

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2013, 12:49:20 AM »
BJ, adding oil late to the mix was a practice that originated in high oil doughs. If you're using a lot of oil, if you add it at the beginning, it can inhibit gluten formation and mess with your dough.  For lower oil doughs, like the one you're doing, though, it's completely unnecessary. Peter has added the oil both ways and found no discernible difference, as have I. Just add all the oil to the water, as you did today.

Not only would adding oil late during the mix be unnecessary, I think, in your instance, it would be especially counterproductive. Do you recall our conversation about certain mixers being happiest with particular quantities of dough?  I think 10 lb. of flour makes too little dough for this mixer- hence the excessive hook creep.  If you add the oil at the point where the dough has already started to form around the hook, there's a high probability that it might not incorporate evenly.

It won't resolve the hook creep completely, but I believe this mixer should be happier with a larger quantity of dough.  If you are going to continue to do 10 lb. flour batches, as Norma suggested, periodically scrape the dough off the hook.

The egg test, like late oil, is, again, not applicable to your dough.  These kinds of tests to determine gluten development in kneaded dough (egg, windowpane) were born from same day doughs that didn't get a lot of gluten development during the fermentation. Time = gluten development. When you ferment overnight or more, you do not need that much gluten development during the initial kneading. The egg test takes a dough to less gluten development than windowpane, but it's still too much gluten development for a 24+ hour dough- especially one with a protein level of your flour, which is not as high as some flours, but, is still a tiny bit too high to not have to worry about excessive gluten formation.

Some other thoughts.

Don't sweat the ADY too much. As I said privately, you're dough most likely won't be perfectly fermented this time around. Get IDY for the next batch, though.

Get real proofing containers.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/cambro-db18266cw-white-pizza-dough-proofing-box-18-x-26-x-6/214DB18266CW.html

Home bakers can get away with storage boxes, but, in a commercial environment, you want a container that will form a good seal, yet still allow gas to escape.

There's not a lot of good videos on balling, but I need to track one down.  Your dough balls are looking a little misshapen.  One of the most important aspects with dough balls is that they are pinched shut and sealed.  If they aren't sealed, stretching can be a hassle.

Tomatoes- I can't really tell from the photo, but what tomatoes are you using? They look a little on the dark side. You're not cooking the tomatoes or using a paste, right?

The lowest speed is all you'll ever need for that mixer.

Overall, for your first time making this dough, it looks pretty good. With the ADY, I'm not really sure where the fermentation is going to be tomorrow, but I'm confident that this dough should be better than what you were working with.


I wont use that oil method then, or the egg method.

So I should tell him to get Instant Dry Yeast and real proofing boxes?

Is there any cheaper alternatives to those proofing boxes? 29 per box is crazy high.

Any good brand, cheap priced, instant dry yeast you recommend that i can pick up locally?


Edit-

Did some reading. If I get IDY, so i mix the same  exact way?

Warm water, oil, and IDY and mix by hand? Do I let it sit for 15 minutes before adding the flour?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 12:52:15 AM by PizzaGuy209 »

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2013, 01:18:39 AM »
Leaving this here for future reference:

Pizza Dough Stretching
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY78ptUN64E

Bruno's NY Style Pizza Dough
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju3MEV-dQ0A
(I'm saving this for the rolling of the dough and stretching, I already have a great recipe)

PIZZA MAKING - Forming the Doughballs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-8xEpX47Yc
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 02:52:20 AM by PizzaGuy209 »

Online scott123

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2013, 03:56:46 AM »
It's been a couple years since I priced proofing boxes, but, the last time I checked one of my local restaurant supply houses, they were $13. See how much sysco is selling them for.

If you're owner hasn't already, start researching local food distributors. You should have a few.  One might have an ingredient another doesn't have, while another might have a better price on something.  If you're selling 20" pizzas for $11, unless you're really shortchanging people on the cheese (which I would not recommend), then your profit margins are going to be pretty tight. You want to get the absolute best price on everything- and that means researching every possible source.

Yes, Instant Dry Yeast. You want to get your yeast from whoever is selling you your flour.

Room temp water  ;), oil and IDY. The same way.  :) Giving it a swirl with your hand (like Luigi's) or turning the mixer on for a second or two isn't a bad idea, just to make sure the yeast is dissolved. It's not a bad practice to start, considering that, at some point, you most likely will move to fresh yeast, and that will definitely need a little mixing with the water.

Leaving this here for future reference:


Where are you getting these videos from BJ?  ;D

The stretching video isn't bad for the edge stretch portion, but he doesn't knuckle stretch. He only does the forearm to forearm stretch.  And then you've got the docking. Never dock.

The balling videos are too aggressive, imo. If you fold the dough over itself over and over and over again, it will get so tight, it will start to tear. Here's the closest I've found to my technique:

Pure & Simple on Vimeo
(1:45 for the balling segment)
NATURALLY RISEN on Vimeo
(1:45 for the balling)

He kneads (basically folds) the ball twice on the bench, then rolls it around with two hands into a ball. The only thing I would change in this technique would be the quantity of bench flour- use less so the dough grips the bench (and itself) a bit more.  He might need that much because of higher hydration dough. I'm not sure.

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2013, 04:15:28 AM »
Will do, IDY and Proofers from Sysco basically.

I've been doing research for the past 2 weeks every day, all day... Scouring every corner of the internet for videos and techniques on dough. I've learned the most from you of course!

As for docking, the owner doesn't like the bubbles that form....

Sadly, hes an artist, and hes a perfectionist. Which isn't that bad...but I keep telling him bubbles are OKAY!

The problem we usually have with our dough while refrigerating is that it expands like CRAZY, it grows into these huge mutations and we have to re-ball the dough. Ill try those techniques in the videos you showed me, makes more sense.


 

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