Author Topic: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.  (Read 11425 times)

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Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2013, 10:02:46 PM »
Man these guys are semi annoying. I need someone to come in and train us all. These guys know nothing and are trying to teach me! They tell me to keep adding flour to the dough and just use a roller. They add so much flour I feel like theyre drying out and killing the dough.. If thats how they want to do it im just going to encourage the owner to get a sheeter. Maybe we can find and pay someone to train us to work with what we have.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 10:17:47 PM by PizzaGuy209 »


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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2013, 11:06:22 PM »
BJ, learn how to make great pizza at home and then bring a slice to your boss and have him compare.  Once he tastes good pizza, he'll be on board with whatever changes you want to make.

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2013, 01:14:32 AM »
Trying this new recipe at the shop, im pumped. No sugar no oil. I wonder how easy the dough will be to handle with this new recipe.

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2013, 04:20:25 AM »
I'd like to let you all know how grateful I am to have such supportive and intelligent people like you giving me advice!

I'd like to especially thank Scott for taking the time to give me a couple pointers via PM. Im going in tomorrow with a new recipe and attitude. Thanks everyone! I'll keep you updated in this thread :chef: :pizza: :-D :drool: ::)

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2013, 09:51:32 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmH6w19k-X8&feature=youtu.be

Video of mixing process^

First image is the flour that my boss said we use, he threw out the bag so...yeah. Ill go by his word.

2nd image is the yeast...

3rd image is the oil, yeast, and room temp water (not warm or cold, just right)

4th is the rolled balls.

5th is the balls in the container, in the fridge.

6th is the 2 containers im using, the one on top has 4 balls, I'm going to open that tomorrow.
The one on the bottom, I put a bag around the container and then put the lid on afterwards. This will be opened on monday.

7th img is the fridge temp. It was on like 25 before.

8th image is our flour in a barrel.

i have a bunch more
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 09:55:35 PM by PizzaGuy209 »

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2013, 10:02:05 PM »
more pics of equipment and stuff.

The bag that says 'Hotel and Restaurant All Purpose Flour' is the flour we used to use. We switched to high gluten after I did some googling and talked to some people, we just use that older flour for our hands and when we stretch the dough..
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 10:03:39 PM by PizzaGuy209 »

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2013, 10:06:01 PM »
I just realized I've been telling everyone that I was using IDY when its active dry yeast. 0.o

Offline norma427

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2013, 10:41:29 PM »
BJ,

It seems like you are moving in the right direction.    :D

I noticed that you dough wanted to climb the dough hook though.  I don't know if you might be interested but the one video of my Hobart mixing my dough is at Reply 571 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg278116.html#msg278116    The second part of the mix of the same dough batch is at Reply 574 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg278135.html#msg278135  I do mix longer in the second mix than that video now as I referenced before in your thread at Reply 12 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,28685.msg288670.html#msg288670

Norma

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2013, 10:58:40 PM »
Ahh I see what you're talking about Norma!

The ingredients I'm using is

Flour - 10 lbs
Water - 6 lbs
Yeast - 2.5 tbsp
Salt - 4.7 tbsp
Oil - 4.7 oz (I mix the yeast, oil, and water by hand in the mixer, then add the dry ingredients)
Sugar - 3.7 tbsp

Made 10 dough balls, 26 oz each.

I noticed you used a lot more oil than I used. I could try putting 2 oz oil in the water first, mix, then near the end add 2.7 oz oil.

Edit, just watched that other video you shared.

So, basically I pull out a small handful, ball to an egg shape and push down then spread it with my thumbs and if it rips, it's not ready and I should mix longer?

Also thought i'd add, I added a small pizza (no toppings) to the oven without a metal sheet beneath it and IT DIDN'T BURN!!!! It came out beautiful actually. I was very pleased. Im learning so much from all you wonderful people... I'd never be able to do this without you all so again, THANK YOU ALL! I'm very grateful.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 11:10:50 PM by PizzaGuy209 »


Offline norma427

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2013, 11:30:48 PM »
BJ,

I am not sure with the math in converting ingredients from volume measurements to baker's percentages but if those were what Scott gave you to use you should be okay.  I use a cheaper digital scale to weigh my ingredients and my scaled dough for my dough balls.  If you are interested in seeing what my digital scale looks like this is what it looks like.  http://www.webstaurantstore.com/tor-rey-pzc-5-10-lb-digital-pizza-controller-portion-scale-with-foot-tare-pedal/166PZC510.html  I find I can get a better dough using a digital scale because weighing with a regular scale sometimes the flour and other ingredients can be off.

I found I do get a better dough and more consistent if I use Tom Lehmann's and Jeff Zeaks video using the “hens egg test?  You might be okay if you use less oil using your method.  If your dough wants to climb the dough hook you might want to try stopping your Hobart and take the dough off of the climbing hook to see if it mixes better the second time.  I am not sure what percentage of water you are using now to know if that is why you dough wants to climb the dough hook.  I only use speed one but your Hobart might mix differently than mine. 

I use the dough calculation tools to make sure I know what weights to use.  A good one is the Lehmann dough calculator at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html or the Expanded dough calculator at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html  Using one of those tools is easy and if you then want to scale your dough formulation up or down it is quick to be able to do that.   

Do you take the final dough temperatures of your batches of dough?

Norma

scott123

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2013, 11:55:50 PM »
BJ, adding oil late to the mix was a practice that originated in high oil doughs. If you're using a lot of oil, if you add it at the beginning, it can inhibit gluten formation and mess with your dough.  For lower oil doughs, like the one you're doing, though, it's completely unnecessary. Peter has added the oil both ways and found no discernible difference, as have I. Just add all the oil to the water, as you did today.

Not only would adding oil late during the mix be unnecessary, I think, in your instance, it would be especially counterproductive. Do you recall our conversation about certain mixers being happiest with particular quantities of dough?  I think 10 lb. of flour makes too little dough for this mixer- hence the excessive hook creep.  If you add the oil at the point where the dough has already started to form around the hook, there's a high probability that it might not incorporate evenly.

It won't resolve the hook creep completely, but I believe this mixer should be happier with a larger quantity of dough.  If you are going to continue to do 10 lb. flour batches, as Norma suggested, periodically scrape the dough off the hook.

The egg test, like late oil, is, again, not applicable to your dough.  These kinds of tests to determine gluten development in kneaded dough (egg, windowpane) were born from same day doughs that didn't get a lot of gluten development during the fermentation. Time = gluten development. When you ferment overnight or more, you do not need that much gluten development during the initial kneading. The egg test takes a dough to less gluten development than windowpane, but it's still too much gluten development for a 24+ hour dough- especially one with a protein level of your flour, which is not as high as some flours, but, is still a tiny bit too high to not have to worry about excessive gluten formation.

Some other thoughts.

Don't sweat the ADY too much. As I said privately, you're dough most likely won't be perfectly fermented this time around. Get IDY for the next batch, though.

Get real proofing containers.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/cambro-db18266cw-white-pizza-dough-proofing-box-18-x-26-x-6/214DB18266CW.html

Home bakers can get away with storage boxes, but, in a commercial environment, you want a container that will form a good seal, yet still allow gas to escape.

There's not a lot of good videos on balling, but I need to track one down.  Your dough balls are looking a little misshapen.  One of the most important aspects with dough balls is that they are pinched shut and sealed.  If they aren't sealed, stretching can be a hassle.

Tomatoes- I can't really tell from the photo, but what tomatoes are you using? They look a little on the dark side. You're not cooking the tomatoes or using a paste, right?

The lowest speed is all you'll ever need for that mixer.

Overall, for your first time making this dough, it looks pretty good. With the ADY, I'm not really sure where the fermentation is going to be tomorrow, but I'm confident that this dough should be better than what you were working with.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 11:59:52 PM by scott123 »

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2013, 12:49:20 AM »
BJ, adding oil late to the mix was a practice that originated in high oil doughs. If you're using a lot of oil, if you add it at the beginning, it can inhibit gluten formation and mess with your dough.  For lower oil doughs, like the one you're doing, though, it's completely unnecessary. Peter has added the oil both ways and found no discernible difference, as have I. Just add all the oil to the water, as you did today.

Not only would adding oil late during the mix be unnecessary, I think, in your instance, it would be especially counterproductive. Do you recall our conversation about certain mixers being happiest with particular quantities of dough?  I think 10 lb. of flour makes too little dough for this mixer- hence the excessive hook creep.  If you add the oil at the point where the dough has already started to form around the hook, there's a high probability that it might not incorporate evenly.

It won't resolve the hook creep completely, but I believe this mixer should be happier with a larger quantity of dough.  If you are going to continue to do 10 lb. flour batches, as Norma suggested, periodically scrape the dough off the hook.

The egg test, like late oil, is, again, not applicable to your dough.  These kinds of tests to determine gluten development in kneaded dough (egg, windowpane) were born from same day doughs that didn't get a lot of gluten development during the fermentation. Time = gluten development. When you ferment overnight or more, you do not need that much gluten development during the initial kneading. The egg test takes a dough to less gluten development than windowpane, but it's still too much gluten development for a 24+ hour dough- especially one with a protein level of your flour, which is not as high as some flours, but, is still a tiny bit too high to not have to worry about excessive gluten formation.

Some other thoughts.

Don't sweat the ADY too much. As I said privately, you're dough most likely won't be perfectly fermented this time around. Get IDY for the next batch, though.

Get real proofing containers.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/cambro-db18266cw-white-pizza-dough-proofing-box-18-x-26-x-6/214DB18266CW.html

Home bakers can get away with storage boxes, but, in a commercial environment, you want a container that will form a good seal, yet still allow gas to escape.

There's not a lot of good videos on balling, but I need to track one down.  Your dough balls are looking a little misshapen.  One of the most important aspects with dough balls is that they are pinched shut and sealed.  If they aren't sealed, stretching can be a hassle.

Tomatoes- I can't really tell from the photo, but what tomatoes are you using? They look a little on the dark side. You're not cooking the tomatoes or using a paste, right?

The lowest speed is all you'll ever need for that mixer.

Overall, for your first time making this dough, it looks pretty good. With the ADY, I'm not really sure where the fermentation is going to be tomorrow, but I'm confident that this dough should be better than what you were working with.

I wont use that oil method then, or the egg method.

So I should tell him to get Instant Dry Yeast and real proofing boxes?

Is there any cheaper alternatives to those proofing boxes? 29 per box is crazy high.

Any good brand, cheap priced, instant dry yeast you recommend that i can pick up locally?


Edit-

Did some reading. If I get IDY, so i mix the same  exact way?

Warm water, oil, and IDY and mix by hand? Do I let it sit for 15 minutes before adding the flour?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 12:52:15 AM by PizzaGuy209 »

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2013, 01:18:39 AM »
Leaving this here for future reference:

Pizza Dough Stretching


Bruno's NY Style Pizza Dough

(I'm saving this for the rolling of the dough and stretching, I already have a great recipe)

PIZZA MAKING - Forming the Doughballs
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 02:52:20 AM by PizzaGuy209 »

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2013, 03:56:46 AM »
It's been a couple years since I priced proofing boxes, but, the last time I checked one of my local restaurant supply houses, they were $13. See how much sysco is selling them for.

If you're owner hasn't already, start researching local food distributors. You should have a few.  One might have an ingredient another doesn't have, while another might have a better price on something.  If you're selling 20" pizzas for $11, unless you're really shortchanging people on the cheese (which I would not recommend), then your profit margins are going to be pretty tight. You want to get the absolute best price on everything- and that means researching every possible source.

Yes, Instant Dry Yeast. You want to get your yeast from whoever is selling you your flour.

Room temp water  ;), oil and IDY. The same way.  :) Giving it a swirl with your hand (like Luigi's) or turning the mixer on for a second or two isn't a bad idea, just to make sure the yeast is dissolved. It's not a bad practice to start, considering that, at some point, you most likely will move to fresh yeast, and that will definitely need a little mixing with the water.

Leaving this here for future reference:

Where are you getting these videos from BJ?  ;D

The stretching video isn't bad for the edge stretch portion, but he doesn't knuckle stretch. He only does the forearm to forearm stretch.  And then you've got the docking. Never dock.

The balling videos are too aggressive, imo. If you fold the dough over itself over and over and over again, it will get so tight, it will start to tear. Here's the closest I've found to my technique:

(1:45 for the balling segment)
(1:45 for the balling)

He kneads (basically folds) the ball twice on the bench, then rolls it around with two hands into a ball. The only thing I would change in this technique would be the quantity of bench flour- use less so the dough grips the bench (and itself) a bit more.  He might need that much because of higher hydration dough. I'm not sure.

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2013, 04:15:28 AM »
Will do, IDY and Proofers from Sysco basically.

I've been doing research for the past 2 weeks every day, all day... Scouring every corner of the internet for videos and techniques on dough. I've learned the most from you of course!

As for docking, the owner doesn't like the bubbles that form....

Sadly, hes an artist, and hes a perfectionist. Which isn't that bad...but I keep telling him bubbles are OKAY!

The problem we usually have with our dough while refrigerating is that it expands like CRAZY, it grows into these huge mutations and we have to re-ball the dough. Ill try those techniques in the videos you showed me, makes more sense.

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2013, 04:17:15 AM »
Also, we aren't cheap on the toppings at all, I kind of wish we were, the prices baffle me and he should raise them a few bucks...that would still beat competitive prices... I think he plans on doing that a few months from now since this was kind of our "Grand opening special" but then again we're selling 14" pies for like... $5.00!

Our garlic bread and wings are garbage...that's something im going to start researching after I perfect my dough techniques. I have a lot of work ahead of me.

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2013, 05:11:41 AM »
Docking is a chain thing.  That's what Dominos and Papa Johns are doing. If you (or your owner) want to sell McPizza, dock.  If the owner truly is an 'artist,' then docking should offend him, because it's one of many ways that the chains suck any and all artistry out of the pizza.

Bubbles are generally a cold dough thing.  You don't want to bake dough straight from the fridge.  If you temper the dough properly - and stretch the dough properly, you won't have bubbles.  If something happens and you do end up with a bubble, use a bubble popper.

If your dough expands like crazy, it means you're either exposing your yeast to too much heat, too much time or are using too much yeast.  No matter what, even if the dough has expanded too much, do not re-ball close to the bake, as it makes a dough that's pretty much impossible to stretch and that will be excessively tough.  Ideally, if the dough has expanded too much, you'll have time to re-ball it and give it a few hours to relax. If you don't have time, though, don't re-ball.

If you want to produce some of the best wings on the planet, use this process:

http://www.seriouseats.com/2012/01/the-food-lab-how-to-make-best-buffalo-wings-fry-again-ultimate-crispy-deep-fried-buffalo-wings.html

Make sure the wings are fresh, though, and not frozen.  This process makes a crispy, fairly salty wing.  If you use frozen wings (that are generally brined), the salt goes through the roof (and the meat isn't as moist because it's been frozen).

Once you master pizza, you should be able to relatively easily transfer your new found pizzamaking skills to bread.  Also, this might be an east coast thing, but most pizzerias here serve garlic knots not bread.  Most people here, me included, prefer the knots.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 05:13:16 AM by scott123 »


Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2013, 05:27:31 AM »
For now I'll just work on garlic bread, then work my way up to knots!

As for the wings, we just cook them a little, and set them in the fridge. When we get an order, we sauce them, cook them, sauce them again.

We don't have a grill top, just the decker oven.

Offline norma427

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2013, 08:17:22 AM »
BJ,

I don't know if these videos will help you at all, but the first one is of Steve (Ev) opening a dough ball and dressing a pizza at my pizza stand. 

This video is of me opening a dough ball a few years ago.  At that time I was only making pizza for a little over a year at market.    That dough was only a test dough at that point in time. 

This video was of me opening up a dough ball less than one year into making pizzas.    I sure was not good at opening dough balls at that point in time.  :-D You can also see I use plastic bags to store my dough balls.  That is because I don't have the cooler space to store the dough balls in trays and Tom Lehmann advises me that was the best approach for my stored dough balls.

This is a video with Tom Lehmann and Jeff Zeak.  In the video it shows how to ball dough balls.   

I thought I posted a video of the way I balled dough balls awhile ago but guess I did not.  I can take a video of me balling the dough balls if you want me to. 

Norma
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 08:19:45 AM by norma427 »

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2013, 08:18:12 AM »
BJ: You are really doing great!  I agree the dough batch is too small for you mixer.  I would do 1.5 to double it.   Is your new dough batch expanding like you mentioned earlier?  Like Scott said if your water temp is too high and or your yeast level is too high, this will happen.  What temp water are you using and how long is the dough on the bench before you get it in the fridge?  Is your fridge temp steady at the temp you showed in your picture?  If you are using it for other things as well the temp will go up and down depending on how much you open it, how much room/warm temp stuff you are adding.   That will also make your dough balls expand quickly.  How large is your fridge space for strictly dough balls?  You mentioned you are on some funky equipment and I wonder if you have enough fridge space to be cold rising dough?   We use one fridge strictly for dough and our cheese/pepperoni so that the door is only opened to get dough boxes in/out and a few other times in the day to get out cheese/pep.  Get the Cambro boxes.  The cheaper ones are junk.  They will not seal well and are way to flimsy.  I am not sure of your dough ball weight but you can easily put 6-20oz dough balls per cambro dough box.  Do the math and see how much space you have in the fridge and if you have the space figure how often it is being opened and take some hourly temp readings to get to know it.    Walter

PS: Garlic knots are the simplest things to make.  We make them when there is extra dough.  Just roll out your dough ball into a rectangular shape as thin as you roll your pizza dough, and use a pizza cutter to slice strips about 1" wide or wider if you like.  Tie them in a very loose knot so as to keep the ends from getting too long (like when you tie your shoes) and bake them on the stone direct or on a screen to keep them all close together.  When they start to brown take them out and brush with olive oil or butter.  We top the olive oil with garlic powder and the buttered ones with cinnamon sugar.  People love them and they are dirt cheap to make. 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 09:12:38 AM by waltertore »
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Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2013, 05:00:34 PM »
Official update... this owner is cheap and extremely stupid. I am no longer interested in giving him advice or trying to help him. Im not giving up on pizza, im giving up on stupidity. I still want to learn and work... ill stay at this shop til I find another mom n pop pizza shop.

If anyone owns a local pizza shop in or near modesto ca and looking to hire let me know.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2013, 05:11:58 PM »
Official update... this owner is cheap and extremely stupid. I am no longer interested in giving him advice or trying to help him.

Probably a good idea. Sounded like you have been in a pretty crappy situation, with no real way for you to do the right thing or keep from driving yourself crazy. Some people can't be helped, and learning the hard way never teaches them anything. Good to know when to walk away.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline waltertore

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2013, 07:16:26 PM »
Official update... this owner is cheap and extremely stupid. I am no longer interested in giving him advice or trying to help him. Im not giving up on pizza, im giving up on stupidity. I still want to learn and work... ill stay at this shop til I find another mom n pop pizza shop.

If anyone owns a local pizza shop in or near modesto ca and looking to hire let me know.

I don't know any shops in Modesto.  We lived in Sonoma County for many years and I have a connection or 2 there.  I would be careful working in a crappy place. Bad habbits will set in.  One of my students makes pizzas in a brand new BP forno classic gas oven on her job after school.  Their approach to pizza is not good IMO and she has picked up some bad habbits that I have to correct when she is making pies at our shop.   Find a shop that where the staff knows what they are doing and  hand stretches/tosses, cooks direct  on stones in good ovens,follows good dough making/management and uses good ingredients.  I have gone in shops and asked for work and was turned down.  I said let me work for free for a few days and fire me anytime.  I was always hired on day one.  If you were in OH I would invite you out to our place.  Walter


here is one of my special needs students making a pie. She prefers to hand stretch.  I prefer to toss but do whatever the dough is saying to do.   She was very nervous and is much more skilled than this shows.




« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 07:24:28 PM by waltertore »
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Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2013, 08:20:57 PM »
Thought I'd show my how my dough came out... Again, I'm not great at stretching / rounding yet... and you can tell I tried using the wooden panel to shoot the dough off into the oven by how the cheese and pepperoni are kind of shooting towards one direction. . My dough ended up burning a little at the crust.

You can see how thin some parts get when I try knuckle stretching... I couldn't even get 26 oz to 20" so i settled with 16"