Author Topic: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.  (Read 9335 times)

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Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #75 on: November 25, 2013, 03:57:13 AM »
What does it mean when bubbles form while cooling the dough?


Offline waltertore

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #76 on: November 25, 2013, 06:10:58 AM »
My uncle actually owns a bakery. I'm thinking about asking him if I could practice there. He has a conveyor belt oven and a better mixer. I'll buy the ingredients and all that..He loves making pizza too, even though his focus is regular bread.

I shared some of the ingredients you guys gave me for pizza dough and he liked them.

I'm sure if I asked him if we could go after they close and try a few pizzas, he'd be happy to join me and make a few of his own.


One thing that scott mentioned, and I agree with him 100% is, I need to understand the recipes and what each one does to the dough. I think once I do that I can play around to make the perfect batch.


That is perfect!  I worked in many bakeries that had stone deck ovens that they did their artisan breads in. I made lots of pizzas in them for the staff to eat.   Ryan is right on the depth of the dough boxes. 

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #77 on: November 25, 2013, 06:22:39 AM »

That is perfect!  I worked in many bakeries that had stone deck ovens that they did their artisan breads in. I made lots of pizzas in them for the staff to eat.   Ryan is right on the depth of the dough boxes.

Well my uncle is one of the best bread distributors in this town. I think he's actually one of the only bakeries that make top quality Pita Bread. He's been at it since the 90's and since he gets so busy he has to use a conveyor belt (which is why I believe he's so obsessed with using them for pizza) Because they make it so much easier for him when hes trying to push out 2000 pita bread in less than a days work. He made a pretty sweet wheat bread pizza the other day at his house. He comes over and we talk dough, he tells me about what each recipe does.

Tell me if hes right:

I may or may have not completely butchered what he told me or misinterpreted it.
This is all a rough translation of our conversation. He tried to simplify it for me.


He told me yeast makes the dough rise (obviously)
Salt adds a bit of flavor and keeps the dough down. (super rough translation)
Sugar basically just helps the dough expand. Won't add too much flavor.
Oil keeps the dough from sticking.

Offline deb415611

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #78 on: November 25, 2013, 06:40:48 AM »


Tell me if hes right:

I may or may have not completely butchered what he told me or misinterpreted it.
This is all a rough translation of our conversation. He tried to simplify it for me.


He told me yeast makes the dough rise (obviously)
Salt adds a bit of flavor and keeps the dough down. (super rough translation)
Sugar basically just helps the dough expand. Won't add too much flavor.
Oil keeps the dough from sticking.

sugar also promotes browning
oil also helps tenderize a dough

I'll see if I can find something good that explains how different ingredients in doughs
Deb

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #79 on: November 25, 2013, 06:42:30 AM »
sugar also promotes browning
oil also helps tenderize a dough

I'll see if I can find something good that explains how different ingredients in doughs

Yes! I forgot he told me it adds color.

He didn't mention much about the tenderizing though.  I think he said something like using less oil makes the dough more elastic? I can't remember.

Offline deb415611

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #80 on: November 25, 2013, 06:45:16 AM »
I haven't read through all these but if you search pizza protips they have done write ups on all the ingredients

http://slice.seriouseats.com/search?site=slice&term=pizza+protips
Deb

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #81 on: November 25, 2013, 06:52:14 AM »
I haven't read through all these but if you search pizza protips they have done write ups on all the ingredients

http://slice.seriouseats.com/search?site=slice&term=pizza+protips

What a wonderful resource!!!! Thanks for this.

Quick question, how many types of yeast are there?

Is Active Dry Yeast the same thing as Instant Dry Yeast?  I'm looking at this site and it shows different grains.
People tell me to put IDY into the mixer with warm water and mix, but as I look up yeast related info, they say Active Dry Yeast is what goes in warm water and Instant Dry Yeast goes into your flour? I read somewhere else that Yeast should avoid direct contact with salt or something along those lines? Fresh yeast is the best, but the trickiest?

Edit: Thought I'd add this question here too. (I pmed it to Scott)

Im reading that yeast basically just adds a rise to the dough, and sugar (along with the flour of course) feeds the yeast.

If I add[To 10 LBS Flour] less than a full tablespoon of yeast and less sugar than the 3.8 TBSP (1.6 oz) you mentioned in the newest recipe, you think that would solve the overgrowth problem? Or Ill try this new recipe first, then if It keeps getting big, reduce sugar / yeast in the next trial?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 06:58:54 AM by PizzaGuy209 »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #82 on: November 25, 2013, 01:28:19 PM »
I'm not sure exactly how many types of yeast there are. The two most common are IDY and ADY. I'm still trying to figure out if all the other terms for yeast mean the same thing (like compressed yeast, bakers' yeast, fresh yeast, etc.). Active dry and instant dry are not the same thing. I'm not gonna try to explain too much right now (partly because I might get some of it wrong), but with IDY you have to use about 75% as much as you would use if you used ADY. (If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.) ADY usually needs to be rehydrated in water that's 100-110 degrees, while IDY doesn't need to be rehydrated. (That is, it can be added to the flour, and usually is.) IDY can also be activated with much cooler water.

You are correct; yeast should not contact salt because salt can kill yeast.

I would think less than a TBS of yeast with 10 lbs of flour would eliminate what I assume you mean by "overgrowth" (quick fermentation). That's about 0.20% yeast. I think pretty much everyone would consider that to be on the low end of good yeast percentages.
Ryan
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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #83 on: November 25, 2013, 05:59:40 PM »
All wheat flour contains enough damaged starch to feed the yeast, so even though yeast feed on sugar, added sugar doesn't play much of a role in dough expansion, but, rather, it's predominantly added for flavor and browning.

Oil also promotes browning.

In order for gluten to form in dough, one type of wheat protein, glutenin, has to make contact with another type of wheat protein, gliadin.  When you knead dough, these separate components rub against each other and gluten is formed. Gluten is the structure of bread.  Too little and the bread will collapse, too much and it will be tough. Oil has a tendency to coat these two proteins and prevent them from making contact, which, in turn, prevents them from forming gluten. Because pizza dough is typically made with high protein flour, it produces chewy crusts. When you inhibit gluten formation by adding oil, it decreases elasticity and tenderizes the final product.

Just like I don't use sugar for yeast food, though, I don't use oil for tenderness- at least, not beyond a certain point (4% or less). If toughness is an issue, there are a few ways to decrease gluten development and create a more tender final product- all of which, imo are preferable to increasing oil, since increasing oil has the tendency to produce an oily tasting crust.  Less kneading = less gluten, also lower protein flour = less gluten.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 06:01:18 PM by scott123 »


Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #84 on: November 25, 2013, 07:12:11 PM »
Ahh I see.

Say I make 2 10 lb batches of dough (that's 20 20" pizzas) and they all sell out before the day is over and some customers come in...

Would it be okay if I made and cooked fresh dough?

And since I'm asking what to do if I don't have enough dough, what do I do with leftover dough balls? Do I just refrigerate them and do the same thing the next day? How long can you typically leave a dough ball in the fridge?

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #85 on: November 25, 2013, 08:00:26 PM »
So, im letting the dough sit til 7:30. The tops look like that because ive been popping all the bubbles. (Pinching and pulling)

Offline norma427

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #86 on: November 25, 2013, 08:44:05 PM »
BJ,

It looks like you might be having the same problems as I did when I was a newbie.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg71952.html#msg71952  If you have time to quickly scan though that thread of mine you will see all I did wrong.  I had dough balls that looked just about what your dough balls look like. 

Norma
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Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #87 on: November 25, 2013, 08:55:28 PM »
Norma,

The ingredients I used were:

Flour (100%):4526.43 g  |  159.66 oz | 9.98 lbs
Water (61%):2761.12 g  |  97.39 oz | 6.09 lbs
IDY (.5%):22.63 g | 0.8 oz | 0.05 lbs | 7.51 tsp | 2.5 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):79.21 g | 2.79 oz | 0.17 lbs | 4.73 tbsp | 0.3 cups
Oil (3%):135.79 g | 4.79 oz | 0.3 lbs | 10.06 tbsp | 0.63 cups
Sugar (1%):45.26 g | 1.6 oz | 0.1 lbs | 11.35 tsp | 3.78 tbsp
Total (167.25%):7570.45 g | 267.04 oz | 16.69 lbs | TF = 0.085
Single Ball:757.05 g | 26.7 oz | 1.67 lbs
10 balls total.

The way I did it:

I added 6 gallons warm water to the mixer (Not too warm or cold, more room temp).
I added 4.7 oz oil to the mixer with the water along with 2.5 tbsp ADY (I didn't have IDY)
I mixed that by hand for a few minutes. I let it sit for 5-10 minutes (I should have waited longer, 10-15 mins maybe)
After that I weighed 10 lbs flour, added the 4.7 tbsp salt and 3.8 tbsp sugar to the weighed flour.
I turned on the mixer at speed 1 and slowly started adding in the flour.
After it formed, I took it out and kneaded it (I now know I'm not supposed to knead after its done mixing, the hobart kneads it good enough once the dough is formed)
After kneading I cut, weighed, balled and stored.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 08:57:45 PM by PizzaGuy209 »

Offline norma427

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #88 on: November 25, 2013, 09:11:06 PM »
Norma,

The ingredients I used were:

Flour (100%):4526.43 g  |  159.66 oz | 9.98 lbs
Water (61%):2761.12 g  |  97.39 oz | 6.09 lbs
IDY (.5%):22.63 g | 0.8 oz | 0.05 lbs | 7.51 tsp | 2.5 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):79.21 g | 2.79 oz | 0.17 lbs | 4.73 tbsp | 0.3 cups
Oil (3%):135.79 g | 4.79 oz | 0.3 lbs | 10.06 tbsp | 0.63 cups
Sugar (1%):45.26 g | 1.6 oz | 0.1 lbs | 11.35 tsp | 3.78 tbsp
Total (167.25%):7570.45 g | 267.04 oz | 16.69 lbs | TF = 0.085
Single Ball:757.05 g | 26.7 oz | 1.67 lbs
10 balls total.

The way I did it:

I added 6 gallons warm water to the mixer (Not too warm or cold, more room temp).
I added 4.7 oz oil to the mixer with the water along with 2.5 tbsp ADY (I didn't have IDY)
I mixed that by hand for a few minutes. I let it sit for 5-10 minutes (I should have waited longer, 10-15 mins maybe)
After that I weighed 10 lbs flour, added the 4.7 tbsp salt and 3.8 tbsp sugar to the weighed flour.
I turned on the mixer at speed 1 and slowly started adding in the flour.
After it formed, I took it out and kneaded it (I now know I'm not supposed to knead after its done mixing, the hobart kneads it good enough once the dough is formed)
After kneading I cut, weighed, balled and stored.

BJ,

Your dough formulation looks fine.  I thought ADY is usually hydrated in warm water though.

Do you know what you final dough temperature was?  That can make a difference in how your dough balls ferment.  What temperature is it where you store your dough balls.

Norma
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Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #89 on: November 25, 2013, 09:13:51 PM »
BJ,

Your dough formulation looks fine.  I thought ADY is usually hydrated in warm water though.

Do you know what you final dough temperature was?  That can make a difference in how your dough balls ferment.  What temperature is it where you store your dough balls.

Norma

The fridge they used was trash, it went form maybe 27 to 34

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #90 on: November 25, 2013, 09:16:14 PM »
I know ive been told not to play with the dough after refrigerating but I had to. These things were no longer balls when I took them out of the container.

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #91 on: November 25, 2013, 09:18:25 PM »
Im thinking of rerolling these and putting them back in the fridge. Im only using 3 balls


Offline norma427

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #92 on: November 25, 2013, 09:29:14 PM »
The fridge they used was trash, it went form maybe 27 to 34

Thanks BJ.  The temperature of 27 degrees F is freezing.

Norma
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Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #93 on: November 25, 2013, 09:31:17 PM »
I checked the fridge and I put it below 1.. 1 is the lowest it will go. Theres an off option too.. the owner doesnt care though

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #94 on: November 25, 2013, 09:33:24 PM »


Video of my dough. Just pressing down and watching it bounce back up. I have to let it sit for another hour though




Rolling the dough^


« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 09:55:49 PM by PizzaGuy209 »

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #95 on: November 25, 2013, 09:58:20 PM »
Lightly oiled 2 that will go in the fridge again. The rest are going to be baked tonight

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #96 on: November 25, 2013, 10:33:18 PM »


Rolling the dough^

BJ, I can understand how you might be a little angry at your old boss, but, please, try not to take out your pent up aggression on those poor little dough balls. What did they ever do to you?  ;D

Seriously, though, take whatever you're doing there and divide it by about 10.  It should be little more than two fold overs and a pinch- and this applies to the initial balling as well.

I just noticed that my previous balling video links are not working (vimeo).  Here is the same thing on youtube:

(go to 1:45 to see the part where he balls the dough)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 10:35:27 PM by scott123 »

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #97 on: November 25, 2013, 10:35:18 PM »
Thanks scott! Ill watch it after these get baked.
Trying garlic knots no cheese and a pretzel

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #98 on: November 25, 2013, 10:50:53 PM »
Alright, BJ, now that you're baking at home, we need to talk a bit about your home oven setup.  I'm seeing an electrical element at the bottom, so that's good.  You oven has a broiler element at the top of the compartment, right?  What's the peak temp on the dial?

If you're going to match the baking abilities of a deck oven at home, you're going to need to work on the oven a bit.

Offline PizzaGuy209

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Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #99 on: November 25, 2013, 11:00:59 PM »
525 is the highest


 

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