Author Topic: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.  (Read 7180 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PizzaGuy209

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: Modesto
  • Working my way up!
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2013, 04:17:15 AM »
Also, we aren't cheap on the toppings at all, I kind of wish we were, the prices baffle me and he should raise them a few bucks...that would still beat competitive prices... I think he plans on doing that a few months from now since this was kind of our "Grand opening special" but then again we're selling 14" pies for like... $5.00!

Our garlic bread and wings are garbage...that's something im going to start researching after I perfect my dough techniques. I have a lot of work ahead of me.


scott123

  • Guest
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2013, 05:11:41 AM »
Docking is a chain thing.  That's what Dominos and Papa Johns are doing. If you (or your owner) want to sell McPizza, dock.  If the owner truly is an 'artist,' then docking should offend him, because it's one of many ways that the chains suck any and all artistry out of the pizza.

Bubbles are generally a cold dough thing.  You don't want to bake dough straight from the fridge.  If you temper the dough properly - and stretch the dough properly, you won't have bubbles.  If something happens and you do end up with a bubble, use a bubble popper.

If your dough expands like crazy, it means you're either exposing your yeast to too much heat, too much time or are using too much yeast.  No matter what, even if the dough has expanded too much, do not re-ball close to the bake, as it makes a dough that's pretty much impossible to stretch and that will be excessively tough.  Ideally, if the dough has expanded too much, you'll have time to re-ball it and give it a few hours to relax. If you don't have time, though, don't re-ball.

If you want to produce some of the best wings on the planet, use this process:

http://www.seriouseats.com/2012/01/the-food-lab-how-to-make-best-buffalo-wings-fry-again-ultimate-crispy-deep-fried-buffalo-wings.html

Make sure the wings are fresh, though, and not frozen.  This process makes a crispy, fairly salty wing.  If you use frozen wings (that are generally brined), the salt goes through the roof (and the meat isn't as moist because it's been frozen).

Once you master pizza, you should be able to relatively easily transfer your new found pizzamaking skills to bread.  Also, this might be an east coast thing, but most pizzerias here serve garlic knots not bread.  Most people here, me included, prefer the knots.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 05:13:16 AM by scott123 »

Offline PizzaGuy209

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: Modesto
  • Working my way up!
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2013, 05:27:31 AM »
For now I'll just work on garlic bread, then work my way up to knots!

As for the wings, we just cook them a little, and set them in the fridge. When we get an order, we sauce them, cook them, sauce them again.

We don't have a grill top, just the decker oven.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22629
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2013, 08:17:22 AM »
BJ,

I don't know if these videos will help you at all, but the first one is of Steve (Ev) opening a dough ball and dressing a pizza at my pizza stand. 

This video is of me opening a dough ball a few years ago.  At that time I was only making pizza for a little over a year at market.    That dough was only a test dough at that point in time. 

This video was of me opening up a dough ball less than one year into making pizzas.    I sure was not good at opening dough balls at that point in time.  :-D You can also see I use plastic bags to store my dough balls.  That is because I don't have the cooler space to store the dough balls in trays and Tom Lehmann advises me that was the best approach for my stored dough balls.

This is a video with Tom Lehmann and Jeff Zeak.  In the video it shows how to ball dough balls.   

I thought I posted a video of the way I balled dough balls awhile ago but guess I did not.  I can take a video of me balling the dough balls if you want me to. 

Norma
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 08:19:45 AM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline waltertore

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 1725
  • Location: granville ohio
    • The Smiling With Hope Bakery
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2013, 08:18:12 AM »
BJ: You are really doing great!  I agree the dough batch is too small for you mixer.  I would do 1.5 to double it.   Is your new dough batch expanding like you mentioned earlier?  Like Scott said if your water temp is too high and or your yeast level is too high, this will happen.  What temp water are you using and how long is the dough on the bench before you get it in the fridge?  Is your fridge temp steady at the temp you showed in your picture?  If you are using it for other things as well the temp will go up and down depending on how much you open it, how much room/warm temp stuff you are adding.   That will also make your dough balls expand quickly.  How large is your fridge space for strictly dough balls?  You mentioned you are on some funky equipment and I wonder if you have enough fridge space to be cold rising dough?   We use one fridge strictly for dough and our cheese/pepperoni so that the door is only opened to get dough boxes in/out and a few other times in the day to get out cheese/pep.  Get the Cambro boxes.  The cheaper ones are junk.  They will not seal well and are way to flimsy.  I am not sure of your dough ball weight but you can easily put 6-20oz dough balls per cambro dough box.  Do the math and see how much space you have in the fridge and if you have the space figure how often it is being opened and take some hourly temp readings to get to know it.    Walter

PS: Garlic knots are the simplest things to make.  We make them when there is extra dough.  Just roll out your dough ball into a rectangular shape as thin as you roll your pizza dough, and use a pizza cutter to slice strips about 1" wide or wider if you like.  Tie them in a very loose knot so as to keep the ends from getting too long (like when you tie your shoes) and bake them on the stone direct or on a screen to keep them all close together.  When they start to brown take them out and brush with olive oil or butter.  We top the olive oil with garlic powder and the buttered ones with cinnamon sugar.  People love them and they are dirt cheap to make. 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 09:12:38 AM by waltertore »

Offline PizzaGuy209

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: Modesto
  • Working my way up!

Offline PizzaGuy209

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: Modesto
  • Working my way up!
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2013, 05:00:34 PM »
Official update... this owner is cheap and extremely stupid. I am no longer interested in giving him advice or trying to help him. Im not giving up on pizza, im giving up on stupidity. I still want to learn and work... ill stay at this shop til I find another mom n pop pizza shop.

If anyone owns a local pizza shop in or near modesto ca and looking to hire let me know.

Offline Aimless Ryan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1926
  • Location: Grove City (Columbus), Ohio
    • Snarky
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2013, 05:11:58 PM »
Official update... this owner is cheap and extremely stupid. I am no longer interested in giving him advice or trying to help him.

Probably a good idea. Sounded like you have been in a pretty crappy situation, with no real way for you to do the right thing or keep from driving yourself crazy. Some people can't be helped, and learning the hard way never teaches them anything. Good to know when to walk away.

Offline waltertore

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 1725
  • Location: granville ohio
    • The Smiling With Hope Bakery
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2013, 07:16:26 PM »
Official update... this owner is cheap and extremely stupid. I am no longer interested in giving him advice or trying to help him. Im not giving up on pizza, im giving up on stupidity. I still want to learn and work... ill stay at this shop til I find another mom n pop pizza shop.

If anyone owns a local pizza shop in or near modesto ca and looking to hire let me know.

I don't know any shops in Modesto.  We lived in Sonoma County for many years and I have a connection or 2 there.  I would be careful working in a crappy place. Bad habbits will set in.  One of my students makes pizzas in a brand new BP forno classic gas oven on her job after school.  Their approach to pizza is not good IMO and she has picked up some bad habbits that I have to correct when she is making pies at our shop.   Find a shop that where the staff knows what they are doing and  hand stretches/tosses, cooks direct  on stones in good ovens,follows good dough making/management and uses good ingredients.  I have gone in shops and asked for work and was turned down.  I said let me work for free for a few days and fire me anytime.  I was always hired on day one.  If you were in OH I would invite you out to our place.  Walter


here is one of my special needs students making a pie. She prefers to hand stretch.  I prefer to toss but do whatever the dough is saying to do.   She was very nervous and is much more skilled than this shows.




« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 07:24:28 PM by waltertore »

Offline PizzaGuy209

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: Modesto
  • Working my way up!
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2013, 08:20:57 PM »
Thought I'd show my how my dough came out... Again, I'm not great at stretching / rounding yet... and you can tell I tried using the wooden panel to shoot the dough off into the oven by how the cheese and pepperoni are kind of shooting towards one direction. . My dough ended up burning a little at the crust.

You can see how thin some parts get when I try knuckle stretching... I couldn't even get 26 oz to 20" so i settled with 16"



Offline PizzaGuy209

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: Modesto
  • Working my way up!
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2013, 08:23:35 PM »
Also thought I'd share how they store the dough... They just stretch the pizzas a day before and throw it in the freezer...not covering anything....

Offline waltertore

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 1725
  • Location: granville ohio
    • The Smiling With Hope Bakery
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2013, 08:36:06 PM »
Again my hat is off to you for your enthusiasim and I mean no offense but to be honest you are working in a very low quality shop.  If your dough is bad going into the stretch it will never come out right.  If you check the first video I posted you will see Paige stretching an a 20 oz dough ball onto a 20" peel.  What size are the refrigerated pie skins in the cooler and what weight are they?  The cooler set up you are using reminds me of what I see here in central OH.  Doughs sit for days like this in the fridge and when taken out to use are dried out, and were not right to begin with.  On you finished pizza pictures is the bottom burnt?  The ovens you are using are sub par and will be hard pressed to turn out a steady flow of good pies.  I guess as long as you are enjoying what you are doing working at this place is ok for now.  Walter

here I am prepping a pizza- a 20 oz ball onto a 20" peel.  I prefer to hand toss but if the dough is loose, the hand stretch wins out and if it is inbetween I will give it both methods.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 08:46:29 PM by waltertore »

Offline PizzaGuy209

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: Modesto
  • Working my way up!
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2013, 08:49:14 PM »
Again my hat is off to you for your enthusiasim and I mean no offense but to be honest you are working in a very low quality shop.  If your dough is bad going into the stretch it will never come out right.  If you check the first video I posted you will see Paige stretching an a 20 oz dough ball onto a 20" peel.  What size are the refrigerated pie skins in the cooler and what weight are they?  The cooler set up you are using reminds me of what I see here in central OH doughs sit for days like this in the fridge and when taken out to use are dried out, and were not right to begin with.  On you finished pizza pictures is the bottom burnt?  The ovens you are using are sub par and will be hard pressed to turn out a steady flow of good pies.  I guess as long as you are enjoying what you are doing working at this place is ok for now.  Walter

here I am prepping a pizza.  I prefer to hand toss but if the dough is loose, the hand stretch wins out and if it is inbetween I will give it both methods.



The dough I made was scotts recipe, came out great, tastes great. I'm starting to think the other guy unknowingly turns off the fridge when he shuts down all the lights from the power box... Might explain why my dough comes out looking like the hulk... They barely put yeast, sugar, salt, and oil in their batch and they're opening up their pizzas with no problem. Theirs isn't retracting like mine does. I feel sabotaged

Yes, the bottom of my pizza was burnt only on the crust line. Paige is a boss. Super talented. I suck at stretching and balling.

I've never worked with pizza before and now that I've met all you people and i'm learning more, I love it...

I can tell they don't care about it. If it cooks well and looks decent, they're happy...

I was talking to the manager and as we were arguing about the dough, I told him mine will taste better and he said "I don't care how it tastes" and I lost my %$#... I yelled back  "HOW DO YOU NOT CARE HOW IT TASTES? THIS IS A RESTAURANT" and he shut up... I cannot believe he said that. I told him Im not working here with them and I'll just work on the facebook page for him and w/e else he needs for menus or stuff like that, he can call me. I'm just going to run his page and take pictures for the business.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 08:53:12 PM by PizzaGuy209 »

Offline waltertore

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 1725
  • Location: granville ohio
    • The Smiling With Hope Bakery
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2013, 09:09:41 PM »
Paige is a boss. Super talented. I suck at stretching and balling.

I've never worked with pizza before and now that I've met all you people and i'm learning more, I love it...


I taught and continue to teach Paige via intensive 1:1 training the way I was taught.  She has a natural ability and desire to learn.  If you are going to try to learn this on your own in a commercial setting with a product like your place now has you will probably end up quiting before you get your skills(which seems what has already happened as I re read your last post).  Find a skilled pizza maker. It can be home baker or pro in a shop.  IMO there is too much touch/feel involved in all aspects of the process to ever learn it quickly via the net(or ever really learn it right).   I am almost 60 and raised before all this internet stuff. It has its good points but IMO for stuff like making pizza one has to seek out a great pizza maker and imerse themself in the world.  I got lucky being born in Essex County NJ to a mother from Italy whose family was in the pizza/bakery business in Italy and on and off in the USA.

Make small batches of dough at home and practice getting it right.  A good dough should ball easily, end up baby butt smooth, ferment without bubbling, and after 2-3 hours out of the fridge should be ready to go.  It should be of even thickness all the way to the crust line which is a bit thicker.  The thin spots on your dough can be due to the dough overfermented and or your process of stretching.  An uneven dough with thin spots like that will lead to uneven cooking and skin tears which will make a mess of your stone.  Again I mean no distrespect but getting proper in the flesh training is the traditional way and by far still the best way to learn.  Even if there are no openings at good shops (if there are any in your town) you can often watch pies being made.  If they ask why you are watching so much tell them the truth- you want to become a great pizza maker and would they hire you.  Persistance will win out everytime!  Walter
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 09:16:31 PM by waltertore »

Offline PizzaGuy209

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: Modesto
  • Working my way up!
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2013, 09:15:25 PM »
I taught and continue to teach Paige via intensive 1:1 training the way I was taught.  She has a natural ability and desire to learn.  If you are going to try to learn this on your own in a commercial setting with a product like your place now has you will probably end up quiting before you get your skills(which seems what has already happened as I re read your last post).  Find a skilled pizza maker. It can be home baker or pro in a shop.  IMO there is too much touch/feel involved in all aspects of the process to learn it quickly via the net.   Make small batches of dough at home and practice getting it right.  A good dough should ball easily, end up baby butt smooth, ferment without bubbling, and after 2-3 hours out of the fridge should be ready to go.  It should be of even thickness all the way to the crust line which is a bit thicker.  The thin spots on your dough can be due to the dough overfermented and or your process of stretching.  An uneven dough with thin spots like that will lead to uneven cooking and skin tears which will make a mess of your stone.  Again I mean no distrespect but getting proper in the flesh training is the traditional way and by far still the best way to learn.  Even if there are no openings at good shops (if there are any in your town) you can often watch pies being made.  If they ask why you are watching so much tell them the truth- you want to become a great pizza maker and would they hire you.  Persistance will win out everytime!  Walter

I took the  batch I made from Scotts recipe home... I'm not going to let them touch it. I have 6 dough balls sitting in a container in my fridge. Im going to practice stretching these tomorrow afternoon. I also got a new recipe I might try here at home, i took 5 lbs of high gluten flour home. I'm looking for stores that sell maybe 1-5 lb bags of IDY. I'm going to be looking for small pizza shops around here too.

Offline waltertore

  • Vendor
  • *
  • Posts: 1725
  • Location: granville ohio
    • The Smiling With Hope Bakery
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2013, 09:21:37 PM »
I took the  batch I made from Scotts recipe home... I'm not going to let them touch it. I have 6 dough balls sitting in a container in my fridge. Im going to practice stretching these tomorrow afternoon. I also got a new recipe I might try here at home, i took 5 lbs of high gluten flour home. I'm looking for stores that sell maybe 1-5 lb bags of IDY. I'm going to be looking for small pizza shops around here too.


good for you!  If you are going to start working at home make sure your fridge temp is steady.  Do you have cash/carry there?  I think it got renamed smart and final since I left 7 years ago.  I bought my stuff there.  They have power flour and IDY yeast cheap.  Try and get in Restaraunt Depot with your current shop.  They have everything you need including GM Full Strength flour. I am off to bed.  Busy day tomorrow.  I look forward to seeing your results.  Walter

https://www.smartfoodservice.com/locations/CA/
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 09:25:53 PM by waltertore »

Offline PizzaGuy209

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: Modesto
  • Working my way up!
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2013, 09:26:43 PM »
My uncle actually owns a bakery. I'm thinking about asking him if I could practice there. He has a conveyor belt oven and a better mixer. I'll buy the ingredients and all that..He loves making pizza too, even though his focus is regular bread.

I shared some of the ingredients you guys gave me for pizza dough and he liked them.

I'm sure if I asked him if we could go after they close and try a few pizzas, he'd be happy to join me and make a few of his own.


One thing that scott mentioned, and I agree with him 100% is, I need to understand the recipes and what each one does to the dough. I think once I do that I can play around to make the perfect batch.

Offline Aimless Ryan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1926
  • Location: Grove City (Columbus), Ohio
    • Snarky
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2013, 10:02:51 PM »
One thing that's very clear from your pics in Reply #49 is that your dough has been allowed to rise before being rounded into a dough ball (or the dough has been re-rounded after being stretched, or something like that). That is, the dough has clearly been agitated more than once. That needs to not happen with dough for NY style. NY style dough needs to be scaled and rounded immediately after mixing, then immediately placed in the cooler. Nothing should be done to the dough until it's stretched and baked.

Also, the dough boxes that I believe Scott linked to are way deeper than what you need. The boxes on the linked page are like 6" deep; the ones you need are about 3" deep. The right ones are surely considerably cheaper than the deep ones, but I think they're still around $20 each.

Offline PizzaGuy209

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
  • Location: Modesto
  • Working my way up!
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2013, 10:10:26 PM »
One thing that's very clear from your pics in Reply #49 is that your dough has been allowed to rise before being rounded into a dough ball (or the dough has been re-rounded after being stretched, or something like that). That is, the dough has clearly been agitated more than once. That needs to not happen with dough for NY style. NY style dough needs to be scaled and rounded immediately after mixing, then immediately placed in the cooler. Nothing should be done to the dough until it's stretched and baked.

Also, the dough boxes that I believe Scott linked to are way deeper than what you need. The boxes on the linked page are like 6" deep; the ones you need are about 3" deep. The right ones are surely considerably cheaper than the deep ones, but I think they're still around $20 each.

after I took it out of the mixer I kneaded the whole thing for maybe 3 minutes. Folding and pressing over and over, then i cut, balled, and set in a container. Maybe it's because I'm super slow at balling? I can't seem to do it right.

Offline Aimless Ryan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1926
  • Location: Grove City (Columbus), Ohio
    • Snarky
Re: New to pizza making and I might be in a bit of a predicament.
« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2013, 10:16:21 PM »
Also, that mixer appears to be really old. I think it's actually pretty cool. I've never even seen a mixer like that. I'm surprised no one else has said anything about it.