Author Topic: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style  (Read 2899 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« on: November 21, 2013, 10:37:22 AM »
Thought I'd share a recent Margherita. (The tray featured is 13" / 33 cm for size comparison.)

Notes:

Baked in a four-deck electric Moffat Artisan in approximately 4m.

The dough's naturally-leavened and made with a flour milled at approximately a 92% extraction-rate with just under 11.5% protein.  Final hydration was nearly 75%.

Finished with two local products, a cool-climate EVOO and a 28-month-old gruyere-style cheese made from organic cow's milk.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 10:42:24 AM by arspistorica »
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe


Offline dylandylan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 990
  • Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2013, 01:42:28 PM »
that's plenty of hydration!  looks great.  Out of interest what are you using for tomatoes and mozzarella?    do you have access to anything fresh and local in Tasmania?

Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2013, 03:10:09 PM »
that's plenty of hydration!  looks great.  Out of interest what are you using for tomatoes and mozzarella?    do you have access to anything fresh and local in Tasmania?

Fresh and local, yes!  That's a big part of my ethos, and one of the reasons I have chosen to settle in Tasmania. (Sourcing is the most important part of what I do.) Mozzarella is house-cultured and -made from local milk, while the tomatoes are a combination of some local and some imported.  This year I hope to received a bigger crop than last of chemical- and pesticide-free soil-grown tomatoes than last year, enough to supply me throughout the whole year (tomatoes are only really good here for three to five weeks out of the year, IMO), and more heirlooms as well. 
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline dylandylan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 990
  • Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2013, 04:35:42 PM »
Great to hear.   I can relate to local tomatoes being a scaricity as far south as you are.  I'm a little further south than you, and while tomatoes can certainly be grown down here I think all my local commercial growers are indoor.  It seems that good vine-ripened fruit comes from warmer climes.

Offline stonecutter

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 961
  • Location: NY
    • Old World Stone & Garden
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2013, 05:33:44 PM »
The pies look nice!

Is that basil on there?....I think so, but the shape of the leaves don't look like it to me.  Did you add it after because you prefer it that way? 
http://oldworldstoneandgarden.com/


When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
John Ruskin

Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2013, 12:31:26 AM »
Great to hear.   I can relate to local tomatoes being a scaricity as far south as you are.  I'm a little further south than you, and while tomatoes can certainly be grown down here I think all my local commercial growers are indoor.  It seems that good vine-ripened fruit comes from warmer climes.

Yeah, saw you were from Dunedin.  Have a bunch of Kiwi mates from there.  (Unrelated side note:  One of my citizenships is NZ, as my father's side of the family is from the north island; I have yet to go yet, ironically.  Your pies look good; maybe a reason to visit one day!)  Most of the growers here are similarly indoors and hydroponic (mmm, no flavour); I only moved to the north of the state from Hobart less than a year ago but have worked with one of two hydro- guys here beginning from last summer and received their first lot of soil-grown tomatoes last year.  They were terrific.  Hopefully I can get a larger amount this summer.

You're also lucky because NZ olive oils are the best I've ever seen outside of Spain!

The pies look nice!

Is that basil on there?....I think so, but the shape of the leaves don't look like it to me.  Did you add it after because you prefer it that way? 

Thanks!  Yes, basil.  I normally top my pies with four to five kinds of basil but the bakery's new and it's been a cold spring.  I will start five kinds of basil from seed out back very soon.  At the moment I am just keeping live basil indoors, similar to Dom Demarco.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 01:49:08 AM by arspistorica »
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2013, 05:01:12 PM »
Some more recent pies to help represent the "down under" crowd!
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2013, 05:07:29 PM »
...
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline stonecutter

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 961
  • Location: NY
    • Old World Stone & Garden
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2013, 06:46:01 PM »
It may be time to put in a WFO now!
http://oldworldstoneandgarden.com/


When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
John Ruskin


Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2013, 07:08:05 PM »
It may be time to put in a WFO now!

Yes, that's one of my ongoing goals!  Unfortunately, there are so many others that also have to be met, as I don't just do pizza, including getting a new, larger geitreidemühlen; a new 20-litre cake mixer; a new batch freezer; a new water filter; etc.
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline dylandylan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 990
  • Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2013, 07:31:42 PM »
That white/green pie looks especially nice.  Love the salad look before it hits the oven.

Offline stonecutter

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 961
  • Location: NY
    • Old World Stone & Garden
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2013, 08:08:01 PM »
..... as I don't just do pizza....

Big time understatement...the bread pics you posted are great.   
http://oldworldstoneandgarden.com/


When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
John Ruskin

Offline Johnny the Gent

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1687
  • Bake strong!
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2013, 05:37:53 AM »
High hydration and fast bake time (~ 4 min), I will try this out. Your crusts rock. Please share your dough recipe/w.flow , if possible.
Il miglior fabbro

Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2013, 02:37:15 PM »
Apiece pasta della pizza, Nuovo Yorkese

Maintenance starter

100% whole wheat flour, freshly milled
65% water
8% starter, maintenance, previously refreshed 10 - 12h prior

FDT.  30°C

Method.  Let ferment for 10 to 12h, until tripled in volume.  Dough is ready to use when in its late exponential phase.

Dough starter

100% flour, "tan"
60% water
20% starter, maintenance, from above

FDT.  28° - 30°C

Method.  Let ferment for 8 to 10h, until tripled in volume.  Dough is ready to use when in its late exponential phase.

Final dough

100% flour, "tan"
76% water
24.75% starter, dough, from above
3.22% sea salt, Murray River

FDT.  26° - 30°C

Method.

Combine flour, water and starter just until a shaggy dough is achieved and every particle of flour is hydrated.  Leave to ferment for 45m.

Add salt.

If mixing by hand, use the pincer method to cut salt into dough.  Remove dough onto bench and slap and fold the dough 4 or 5 times.  Use the pincer method to break the proteins in the down, followed by 4 to 5 more slap-and-folds on the bench surface.  Lightly water the bottom of a bowl and add dough to back to the bowl.

If using a mixer (not necessary for batch sizes under 5-kg of flour), mix on 1st speed just until salt is dissolved, approximately 5m.

Let ferment in bulk for 2h 15m, with 2 to 3 folds using slightly moistened fingertips.

Divide and shape into rounds.  Dough balls can be retarded, in shape, for up to 18h, or allowed to proof at room temperature for at least 3 - 4h.


Notes

Our "tan" flour is a custom roller-milled wheat flour with approximately 11.5% protein and a 90% extraction rate.  The protein composition of the wheat makes it similar to a French spring wheat flour for rheological and fermentative purposes; North American flours of the same protein content and extraction rate hold more water and exhibit much greater fermentation tolerance.

The no-salt "rest" period does not create the same characteristics of a true dough en autolysis, despite the claims of various "expert" sources.  Rather, it allows for uninhibited growth of the culture, especially at optimal dough temperatures, generating a flavour profile I prefer as well as shaving time off of the overall fermentation.  We mix most of our bread doughs in a similar manner.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 07:56:23 PM by arspistorica »
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline Johnny the Gent

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1687
  • Bake strong!
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2013, 03:31:33 PM »
Thanks arspistorica for sharing your Nuovo Yorkese dough formula!  For the ~ 13" pizzas you made, what is the dougball weight?
Il miglior fabbro

Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2013, 07:50:57 PM »
Thanks arspistorica for sharing your Nuovo Yorkese dough formula!  For the ~ 13" pizzas you made, what is the dougball weight?

370 grams.
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline Johnny the Gent

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1687
  • Bake strong!
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2013, 11:28:55 AM »
Thanks. I tried out a 74% hydration dough today, but with CY. Next time SD.
Il miglior fabbro


Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2013, 01:33:09 PM »
Thanks. I tried out a 74% hydration dough today, but with CY. Next time SD.

How was it?  Looked great.  Pies like this -- Great Lake, Delancey, etc. -- are closer to my preferred style; I look at what I do as an Italian trying to make a New York pie that looks and feels Italian.

For a great co-fermented dough in this style try .3% fresh yeast and natural starter with 9 - 10% of the total flour prefermented.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 01:36:51 PM by arspistorica »
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline Johnny the Gent

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1687
  • Bake strong!
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2013, 05:53:13 PM »
How was it?  Looked great.  Pies like this -- Great Lake,Delancey, etc. -- are closer to my preferred style; I look at what I do as an Italian trying to make a New York pie that looks and feels Italian.

For a great co-fermented dough in this style try .3% fresh yeast and natural starter with 9 - 10% of the total flour prefermented.

I thought that margherita came out nice. I enjoy working with high hydration doughs, and this was no different. What I particularly enjoyed was how the cornicione takes on a beautiful shape. The crust center was thin and crisp, but the outer rim was puffy and thick with a nice chew. My wife and I ate it fast!

After making a couple minor adjustments to my oven I baked two marinaras. The local veggie stand had some ripe tomatoes, so I used some fresh pulp along with just a little of Mutti tomatoes. D.ball weights: 250 and 320 gms. Bake time for each: ~ 2:15-2:30.
Il miglior fabbro

Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2013, 08:12:29 PM »
How was it?  Looked great.  Pies like this -- Great Lake, Delancey, etc. -- are closer to my preferred style; I look at what I do as an Italian trying to make a New York pie that looks and feels Italian.

For a great co-fermented dough in this style try .3% fresh yeast and natural starter with 9 - 10% of the total flour prefermented.

arspistorica:

I wonder if you can expand on this tip of using 0.3% fresh yeast combined with 9-10% natural starter.  I believe I have read that when you combine commercial yeast with natural starter, the commercial yeast will "take over" in the fermentation process and overpower any fermentation driven by the natural starter.

Is that correct? incorrect?  Is the combination for flavor only? , etc.

Also, given the two are present, how would I rethink the timing of the dough.  Would it be ready sooner?


Thanks in advance,
Mitch
Mitch

Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2013, 08:36:13 PM »
arspistorica:

I wonder if you can expand on this tip of using 0.3% fresh yeast combined with 9-10% natural starter.  I believe I have read that when you combine commercial yeast with natural starter, the commercial yeast will "take over" in the fermentation process and overpower any fermentation driven by the natural starter.

Is that correct? incorrect?  Is the combination for flavor only? , etc.

Also, given the two are present, how would I rethink the timing of the dough.  Would it be ready sooner?


Thanks in advance,
Mitch

Co-ferments are a nice way to achieve great flavour and texture, even more so than commercially-yeasted preferments, which add little to a dough, in my opinion (especially pizza doughs).  Even though I do not use them myself, I think the resulting doughs are infinitely preferable to anything achievable with industrial yeast alone.

There are a few topics I can address here.

First, whenever commercial yeast is used in conjunction with sourdough in an intermediary or final dough, the fermentation should be categorised as yeasted, and the addition of sourdough should be viewed as a natural dough improver only.  Industrial yeast has shorter generation times than sourdough microbiota and will easily out-compete in most normal dough circumstances, except those with a very low starting dough pH (say, under 4.0)--an unlikely consideration.

Second, the natural starter is added as a natural dough improver, creating better preservability, flavour and texture, although not to the same degree as a dough leavened solely with sourdough.  The inclusion of starter does add to carbon-dioxide production as well, cutting total fermentation time by approximately two-thirds.

Third, given this last statement, it is then necessary to re-jigger normal leavening amounts found in formulae.  In continuously-maintained sourdough starters, both yeast and heterofermentative lactobacilli create CO2.  By adding a third leavening agent to the mix, fermentation will occur at a rate approximately 1.5 times faster, so it is preferable to reduce normal inoculation amounts--of starter and IDY, both--by two-thirds to achieve the normally-desired results. (There has been a spate of dough formulae in recent years that have won the best baguette in Paris competition using natural starter and commercial yeast, and all hover around 9 - 10% of the total flour prefermented, with good reason.)

For IDY and natural starters, I would recommend a FDT of between 22° to 25°C and a total bulk fermentation time of 3h.  For optimal flavour results, I would also recommend not going over 2.4% salt, as any more negatively impacts the aromatic contribution of what is already a minor lactobacilli presence.  The dough can then be retarded in shape.
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2013, 09:21:01 PM »
Thanks, that is very helpful.

Some questions:

1. You mentioned fermentation at 1.5 X faster and then recommended cutting the yeast and starter by 2/3.  Did you mean "by" 2/3 (e.g. 24% starter to 8% starter) or "to" 2/3 (e.g. 12% starter to 8% starter).  I am asking since it seems like the real issue is timing.  So, to maintain the same time to fermentation, one needs to cut the yeast/starter from X to Y.  Am I on the right track?

2. When you mention retarding the dough, is it Ok from your perspective to retard in a fridge at, say 4 degrees C?  Or, did you mean at a lower temperature than 22 to 25 C, such as 15 C or so.

3. I assume the starter would be well fed and at peak as opposed to needing a feeding.  Right?  How would you criticize or support using some unfed starter (a convenience question/timing)?

Thanks much,
Mitch
Mitch

Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2013, 09:50:37 PM »
Thanks, that is very helpful.

Some questions:

1. You mentioned fermentation at 1.5 X faster and then recommended cutting the yeast and starter by 2/3.  Did you mean "by" 2/3 (e.g. 24% starter to 8% starter) or "to" 2/3 (e.g. 12% starter to 8% starter).  I am asking since it seems like the real issue is timing.  So, to maintain the same time to fermentation, one needs to cut the yeast/starter from X to Y.  Am I on the right track?

2. When you mention retarding the dough, is it Ok from your perspective to retard in a fridge at, say 4 degrees C?  Or, did you mean at a lower temperature than 22 to 25 C, such as 15 C or so.

3. I assume the starter would be well fed and at peak as opposed to needing a feeding.  Right?  How would you criticize or support using some unfed starter (a convenience question/timing)?

Thanks much,
Mitch

Sorry, thanks for the clarification.  Reduce to 67% of the original, or by 33%!

Retarding in the fridge is fine, especially if mixed warm.  What you'll find is that the dough doesn't necessarily chill down to the refrigerator temperature right away, and, depending upon the size of the dough mass, can take several hours.  During this time, there is a gradual drop in dough temperature that slightly favours lactic-acid bacterial growth and metabolism, thus resulting in increased flavour contribution from the starter before metabolism ceases at 4°C.

I believe a well-maintained starter used during its late log phase, even when used in conjunction with commercial yeast, provides better results than very "old" starter, which, depending upon age, contains depleted nutrients, spent aromatic volatiles, and dead cells.  Why waste a portion of good, much-needed flour?  You can always keep leftover starter, still in its late logarithmic phase, in the fridge for these very purposes, or you can feed "old" starter at a greater ratio than normal for a quick refreshment (i.e., 100% - 150% starter to flour for the leaven to bring cells back alive and kickin'.)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 09:52:49 PM by arspistorica »
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2013, 05:01:43 PM »
Sorry, thanks for the clarification.  Reduce to 67% of the original, or by 33%!

Retarding in the fridge is fine, especially if mixed warm.  What you'll find is that the dough doesn't necessarily chill down to the refrigerator temperature right away, and, depending upon the size of the dough mass, can take several hours.  During this time, there is a gradual drop in dough temperature that slightly favours lactic-acid bacterial growth and metabolism, thus resulting in increased flavour contribution from the starter before metabolism ceases at 4°C.

I believe a well-maintained starter used during its late log phase, even when used in conjunction with commercial yeast, provides better results than very "old" starter, which, depending upon age, contains depleted nutrients, spent aromatic volatiles, and dead cells.  Why waste a portion of good, much-needed flour?  You can always keep leftover starter, still in its late logarithmic phase, in the fridge for these very purposes, or you can feed "old" starter at a greater ratio than normal for a quick refreshment (i.e., 100% - 150% starter to flour for the leaven to bring cells back alive and kickin'.)

Thanks again.
I realized I had another question.....................if you could.

In pondering the starter amount and IDY amount, the starter looked relatively low when I compared it to the amount of IDY.  It may be that I am not interpreting your statements correctly.

You said: "There has been a spate of dough formulae in recent years that have won the best baguette in Paris competition using natural starter and commercial yeast, and all hover around 9 - 10% of the total flour prefermented, with good reason"

If the total flour is 100 g, and the preferment is 100% hydrated (50% flour, 50% water), then would "10% of the total flour prefermented" mean:

1 20 g of starter combined with 90 g of flour? (the starter flour being 10g added to the 90g of flour) OR
2 10 g of starter combined with 90 g of flour (the entire starter being 10 g added to the 90 g of flour
or something else?

I was assuming it was 2 but in thinking of the relative amounts, I began to think I was parsing the words incorrectly and underestimating the amount of starter.

Thanks a lot.
Mitch

Offline arspistorica

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Australia
  • Keep that which is simple abundant.
Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2013, 11:26:50 PM »
Thanks again.
I realized I had another question.....................if you could.

In pondering the starter amount and IDY amount, the starter looked relatively low when I compared it to the amount of IDY.  It may be that I am not interpreting your statements correctly.

You said: "There has been a spate of dough formulae in recent years that have won the best baguette in Paris competition using natural starter and commercial yeast, and all hover around 9 - 10% of the total flour prefermented, with good reason"

If the total flour is 100 g, and the preferment is 100% hydrated (50% flour, 50% water), then would "10% of the total flour prefermented" mean:

1 20 g of starter combined with 90 g of flour? (the starter flour being 10g added to the 90g of flour) OR
2 10 g of starter combined with 90 g of flour (the entire starter being 10 g added to the 90 g of flour
or something else?

I was assuming it was 2 but in thinking of the relative amounts, I began to think I was parsing the words incorrectly and underestimating the amount of starter.

Thanks a lot.

Number one!  Starter math can be confusing, quite obviously.  You can always feel free to adjust the amounts up or down, too, to suit your taste, but I find 10% of the total flour prefermented to be just about right for co-fermented doughs, especially those that are to be refrigerated in shape.  You can always decrease the amount of commercial yeast, as well; I use .3% as my upper-limit.  It's also the amount I would use if processing only at room temperature; I might slightly decrease the amount if retarding the dough in shape.

So, your formula might look something like this (I'm using a total hydration of 70% and final salt level of 2.8% as an example):

90g flour
60g water
20g starter, 100% hydration
2.8g salt
.12g IDY

Which would then become:

100% flour
67% water
22.2% starter
3.1% salt
.13% IDY

Looks good!  When's dinner?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 11:31:50 PM by arspistorica »
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe