Author Topic: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style  (Read 2035 times)

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Offline arspistorica

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Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2013, 08:36:13 PM »
arspistorica:

I wonder if you can expand on this tip of using 0.3% fresh yeast combined with 9-10% natural starter.  I believe I have read that when you combine commercial yeast with natural starter, the commercial yeast will "take over" in the fermentation process and overpower any fermentation driven by the natural starter.

Is that correct? incorrect?  Is the combination for flavor only? , etc.

Also, given the two are present, how would I rethink the timing of the dough.  Would it be ready sooner?


Thanks in advance,
Mitch

Co-ferments are a nice way to achieve great flavour and texture, even more so than commercially-yeasted preferments, which add little to a dough, in my opinion (especially pizza doughs).  Even though I do not use them myself, I think the resulting doughs are infinitely preferable to anything achievable with industrial yeast alone.

There are a few topics I can address here.

First, whenever commercial yeast is used in conjunction with sourdough in an intermediary or final dough, the fermentation should be categorised as yeasted, and the addition of sourdough should be viewed as a natural dough improver only.  Industrial yeast has shorter generation times than sourdough microbiota and will easily out-compete in most normal dough circumstances, except those with a very low starting dough pH (say, under 4.0)--an unlikely consideration.

Second, the natural starter is added as a natural dough improver, creating better preservability, flavour and texture, although not to the same degree as a dough leavened solely with sourdough.  The inclusion of starter does add to carbon-dioxide production as well, cutting total fermentation time by approximately two-thirds.

Third, given this last statement, it is then necessary to re-jigger normal leavening amounts found in formulae.  In continuously-maintained sourdough starters, both yeast and heterofermentative lactobacilli create CO2.  By adding a third leavening agent to the mix, fermentation will occur at a rate approximately 1.5 times faster, so it is preferable to reduce normal inoculation amounts--of starter and IDY, both--by two-thirds to achieve the normally-desired results. (There has been a spate of dough formulae in recent years that have won the best baguette in Paris competition using natural starter and commercial yeast, and all hover around 9 - 10% of the total flour prefermented, with good reason.)

For IDY and natural starters, I would recommend a FDT of between 22 to 25C and a total bulk fermentation time of 3h.  For optimal flavour results, I would also recommend not going over 2.4% salt, as any more negatively impacts the aromatic contribution of what is already a minor lactobacilli presence.  The dough can then be retarded in shape.
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
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Online mitchjg

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Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2013, 09:21:01 PM »
Thanks, that is very helpful.

Some questions:

1. You mentioned fermentation at 1.5 X faster and then recommended cutting the yeast and starter by 2/3.  Did you mean "by" 2/3 (e.g. 24% starter to 8% starter) or "to" 2/3 (e.g. 12% starter to 8% starter).  I am asking since it seems like the real issue is timing.  So, to maintain the same time to fermentation, one needs to cut the yeast/starter from X to Y.  Am I on the right track?

2. When you mention retarding the dough, is it Ok from your perspective to retard in a fridge at, say 4 degrees C?  Or, did you mean at a lower temperature than 22 to 25 C, such as 15 C or so.

3. I assume the starter would be well fed and at peak as opposed to needing a feeding.  Right?  How would you criticize or support using some unfed starter (a convenience question/timing)?

Thanks much,
Mitch

Offline arspistorica

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Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2013, 09:50:37 PM »
Thanks, that is very helpful.

Some questions:

1. You mentioned fermentation at 1.5 X faster and then recommended cutting the yeast and starter by 2/3.  Did you mean "by" 2/3 (e.g. 24% starter to 8% starter) or "to" 2/3 (e.g. 12% starter to 8% starter).  I am asking since it seems like the real issue is timing.  So, to maintain the same time to fermentation, one needs to cut the yeast/starter from X to Y.  Am I on the right track?

2. When you mention retarding the dough, is it Ok from your perspective to retard in a fridge at, say 4 degrees C?  Or, did you mean at a lower temperature than 22 to 25 C, such as 15 C or so.

3. I assume the starter would be well fed and at peak as opposed to needing a feeding.  Right?  How would you criticize or support using some unfed starter (a convenience question/timing)?

Thanks much,
Mitch

Sorry, thanks for the clarification.  Reduce to 67% of the original, or by 33%!

Retarding in the fridge is fine, especially if mixed warm.  What you'll find is that the dough doesn't necessarily chill down to the refrigerator temperature right away, and, depending upon the size of the dough mass, can take several hours.  During this time, there is a gradual drop in dough temperature that slightly favours lactic-acid bacterial growth and metabolism, thus resulting in increased flavour contribution from the starter before metabolism ceases at 4C.

I believe a well-maintained starter used during its late log phase, even when used in conjunction with commercial yeast, provides better results than very "old" starter, which, depending upon age, contains depleted nutrients, spent aromatic volatiles, and dead cells.  Why waste a portion of good, much-needed flour?  You can always keep leftover starter, still in its late logarithmic phase, in the fridge for these very purposes, or you can feed "old" starter at a greater ratio than normal for a quick refreshment (i.e., 100% - 150% starter to flour for the leaven to bring cells back alive and kickin'.)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 09:52:49 PM by arspistorica »
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Online mitchjg

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Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2013, 05:01:43 PM »
Sorry, thanks for the clarification.  Reduce to 67% of the original, or by 33%!

Retarding in the fridge is fine, especially if mixed warm.  What you'll find is that the dough doesn't necessarily chill down to the refrigerator temperature right away, and, depending upon the size of the dough mass, can take several hours.  During this time, there is a gradual drop in dough temperature that slightly favours lactic-acid bacterial growth and metabolism, thus resulting in increased flavour contribution from the starter before metabolism ceases at 4C.

I believe a well-maintained starter used during its late log phase, even when used in conjunction with commercial yeast, provides better results than very "old" starter, which, depending upon age, contains depleted nutrients, spent aromatic volatiles, and dead cells.  Why waste a portion of good, much-needed flour?  You can always keep leftover starter, still in its late logarithmic phase, in the fridge for these very purposes, or you can feed "old" starter at a greater ratio than normal for a quick refreshment (i.e., 100% - 150% starter to flour for the leaven to bring cells back alive and kickin'.)

Thanks again.
I realized I had another question.....................if you could.

In pondering the starter amount and IDY amount, the starter looked relatively low when I compared it to the amount of IDY.  It may be that I am not interpreting your statements correctly.

You said: "There has been a spate of dough formulae in recent years that have won the best baguette in Paris competition using natural starter and commercial yeast, and all hover around 9 - 10% of the total flour prefermented, with good reason"

If the total flour is 100 g, and the preferment is 100% hydrated (50% flour, 50% water), then would "10% of the total flour prefermented" mean:

1 20 g of starter combined with 90 g of flour? (the starter flour being 10g added to the 90g of flour) OR
2 10 g of starter combined with 90 g of flour (the entire starter being 10 g added to the 90 g of flour
or something else?

I was assuming it was 2 but in thinking of the relative amounts, I began to think I was parsing the words incorrectly and underestimating the amount of starter.

Thanks a lot.

Offline arspistorica

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Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2013, 11:26:50 PM »
Thanks again.
I realized I had another question.....................if you could.

In pondering the starter amount and IDY amount, the starter looked relatively low when I compared it to the amount of IDY.  It may be that I am not interpreting your statements correctly.

You said: "There has been a spate of dough formulae in recent years that have won the best baguette in Paris competition using natural starter and commercial yeast, and all hover around 9 - 10% of the total flour prefermented, with good reason"

If the total flour is 100 g, and the preferment is 100% hydrated (50% flour, 50% water), then would "10% of the total flour prefermented" mean:

1 20 g of starter combined with 90 g of flour? (the starter flour being 10g added to the 90g of flour) OR
2 10 g of starter combined with 90 g of flour (the entire starter being 10 g added to the 90 g of flour
or something else?

I was assuming it was 2 but in thinking of the relative amounts, I began to think I was parsing the words incorrectly and underestimating the amount of starter.

Thanks a lot.

Number one!  Starter math can be confusing, quite obviously.  You can always feel free to adjust the amounts up or down, too, to suit your taste, but I find 10% of the total flour prefermented to be just about right for co-fermented doughs, especially those that are to be refrigerated in shape.  You can always decrease the amount of commercial yeast, as well; I use .3% as my upper-limit.  It's also the amount I would use if processing only at room temperature; I might slightly decrease the amount if retarding the dough in shape.

So, your formula might look something like this (I'm using a total hydration of 70% and final salt level of 2.8% as an example):

90g flour
60g water
20g starter, 100% hydration
2.8g salt
.12g IDY

Which would then become:

100% flour
67% water
22.2% starter
3.1% salt
.13% IDY

Looks good!  When's dinner?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 11:31:50 PM by arspistorica »
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
                                  -Franco Pepe

Online mitchjg

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Re: NY Pizza, Tasmanian-Style
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2013, 09:36:42 AM »
Ahah!  Thanks for the clarification.  Words often get in the way of numbers....(but I was a Math major, not an English major).

I will give it a try this weekend.  At this yeast level, it looks like it would only need to be fermented for a few hours (same day dough).  I may try that or lower the yeast to go overnight.  Or, try my newly installed beverage fridge to lower the temp after the bulk ferment to go overnight (one side is at about 4 C, the other side [intended for wine] can be set within a range of around 7 - 18).

Not enough weekends or allowed calories to try all the possibilities.  Sigh.

- Mitch


 

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