My First Marinara

[JPY]

To stir it up more, I had a guy from Canada here who trained with the VPN in Los Angeles for a couple of days.  So he brought some dough, cheese and sauce that they made to try it in some of our ovens.  We did one in the gas forno, I had it pretty hot in there.  Cooked in 135 seconds.  For the next one we did gas again but a little hotter, we cooked this one in 105 seconds.  The third one we did wood only, in the same oven, and had it in there for 100 seconds.  I must say that there was not much differences between the pizzas.  There was subtle color difference, but that is about it.  They were all good as far as texture and taste.  

[David]

I think the thing to judge ovens by is how fast they cook the pie.  I don't care what the temperature readings are.  How many minutes is the critical factor (plus to some extent air circulation), not the heat source itself. 

My apologies if I'm misunderstanding this,but sorry Scott, as this is in the Neapolitan Thread I have to disagree.The heat source to me is critical to the defineing characteristics of the  final product,
                                                                                              David


                                                                             

[upper crust]

Hey Varasano thank you for the compliments.

I'm sorry you haven't had much luck getting a good pie from a wood burning oven.
When I first got interested in pizza I had tried Lombardi's and I loved it. From that point on I thought Coal ovens were the best. But as time went on and I did more research. I found that the ovens used for what I call real pizza (pizza Napoletana) are wood burning.
I'm from NY and its not that difficult to find a place making pizza with a wood burning oven, although it is very difficult to find a place making a good pie using a wood burning oven. There are many factors that result in a good pie(Napoletana) and a very big one is the oven. In the U.S. there aren't many real Neapolitan ovens. An oven Made by an Artisan whom is usually Neapolitan and most likely using Materials from the south of Italy to make it.
However There are two places in NY that you must try If you haven't already. Una Pizza Napoletana and La Pizza Fresca. I'm not saying they are the best but they are some of the closest in making a Vera Pizza Napoletana. If you ever find yourself in P.A. visit IL Pizzaiolo. This place is awesome.Ron has been my mentor and is a truly great and knowledgeable person.

[scott r]

David, You may be right about the ovens making different styles of pie.  I still can't believe the pies that come out of my self clean cycle.  The good ones (which are now happening just about every time now thank god) are still better than anything I have ever had in the US.

I guess I could be crazy, but I just have a feeling that if you took Patsy's dough and UPN's dough and switched ovens it would be pretty damn similar.  They both cook in 2 minutes I think.

There is the wood flavor of course, and air circulation that would be different, but would the pies really be that different?

On a side note, the absolute best tasting pies I had in Italy, not the best textured pies, came out of an oven in Sorrento that was burning a different kind of wood than all the places I tried in Naples.  I still prefer the pizza in Naples, but this Sorrento pie had a much more defined smoke flavor.  One reason, I am sure, is because the pies were in the oven longer because it was huge and obviously not as hot.   I did notice that the wood they were burning had much larger logs with all the bark on them.  In Naples they were using small little trimmed wood.  I can't remember if they were 1x1's or 2x2's or whatever, but they were more like lumber than logs.

Anxiously awaiting the flames!

[varasano]

I've only tried the brick oven once, so as long as Gail doesn't get sick of me parking myself at her house, I'll figure it out.

I haven't had UPN or Fresca yet, but I'll get to them this spring.

I have made some great pies on the cleaning cycle, but I still think the brick oven is going to help. There was a time I thought the heat was all I needed, but now I think it will make some difference. Not huge, but some.  The 7 min pie in the brick oven was still pretty good. In my electric that would have been terrible. Also, I bought a dough at Patsy's and flew it to my oven and baked it   It tasted more like my pies than like theirs. A clear sign that the oven was the difference.

Jeff

[varasano]

One more thing about patsy's dough. I have NEVER seen a dough as windowpaned as theirs. It had THOUSANDS of bubbles and blisters. It could probably have been pulled into phyllo dough without breaking. It was so springy, like playing with a balloon. The feeling was unlike anything I've ever reproduced. Yet when I baked it in my oven, it tasted just like my pie.

Jeff

[scott r]

Jeff, I just got some bad news about UPN.  I quote: "UPN has been slacking big time--the dough has been hard with very little rise and not that great flavor".  This comes from a friend who lives in NY and really loves the place.

Is there any place we can recommend where there aren't problems with consistency??? It must be Bianco's.

Hopefully the place Marco likes--Luzio's or whatever it is called--will just keep it up.  PPPLLLLLEEEEAAAAAASSSSSSEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

[scott r]

Ok, Have some good news about Luzzo's Restaurant Italian & Coal Oven Pizza,  211 1st Ave, New York 10003 Btwn 12th & 13th St Phone: 212-473-7447

Jeff, you need to go here.  If you like Patsy's you are going to love this pizza. I thought my pie was going to float off the plate it was so light.  I would say that it was not totally authentic Neapolitan pizza, but that might be a good thing to many of you.  No bitter taste, not soggy (I am not saying I think Neapolitan is like this, but I have heard the comments lately).  The pizzaiolo did not use the Neapolitan stretching procedure, but used the on the knuckles NY style procedure. It was not an ultra high hydration dough, but it cooked up great.  He told me they are using a normal Hobart mixer, and a two day fridge rise.  Don't let this scare you.  The pizza was more than excellent.  It TOTALLY BLEW a16 out of the water, and I know they are pretty much doing the same thing.  I have had a few Patsy's pizzas that were exceptionally light fluffy and cooked perfectly, and this was like that but with better flavor because of the better quality ingredients.  They put their basil and oil on the pies after the bake. They claim the pies are 80 seconds in the oven, but it did seem like more like 3 min to me.  I think this will actually please many people because the pie I had was soft fluffy, but also crisp. No sourdo starter here, but I did not really miss it that much.  They use fresh (beer) yeast and it tastes great with their high quality sauce and cheese.  So far this and UPN are the best I have had in the sates by far.  I will hit UPN this week as well and see what kind of luck I have. 

Also UPN and Luzzo's are a one minute walk from one another.

[Pete-zza]

scott,

I got the impression from a recent Marco post that Luzzo's may be using a different (and stronger) flour than the Caputo flour. Can you describe the attributes of the crust you had and what type of flour might have been used? I believe Marco indicated that the flour was from Naples.

Peter

[varasano]

scott can you bounce over to my new list and give me your thoughts?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2925

[scott r]

scott,

I got the impression from a recent Marco post that Luzzo's may be using a different (and stronger) flour than the Caputo flour. Can you describe the attributes of the crust you had and what type of flour might have been used? I believe Marco indicated that the flour was from Naples.

Peter

Peter, the crust was very fluffy and light.  To me it seemed like it was a little bit more like an American style flour than a straight Caputo blue.  It reminded me of the pies I made for you with a blend of KASL and Caputo, but with less flavor and a tighter crumb.   I don't know the brand they are using, but it does seem like quality flour for sure.  I didn't want to pry too much about specifics (like the flour brand) but I will be back maybe tomorrow and I will try to get more info.